Advice needed!

(Applications Advice, Letters of Recommendation . . . )
mike140
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Re: Advice needed!

Postby mike140 » Mon May 13, 2013 7:03 pm

Thanks for the advice everyone. I'm 26 years old and can't take another year off. I've already quit my job and based everything off of going to law school this fall. If Syracuse is that bad then should I look into transferring?

Mal Reynolds
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Re: Advice needed!

Postby Mal Reynolds » Mon May 13, 2013 7:03 pm

mike140 wrote:Thanks for the advice everyone. I'm 26 years old and can't take another year off. I've already quit my job and based everything off of going to law school this fall. If Syracuse is that bad then should I look into transferring?


No.

mike140
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Re: Advice needed!

Postby mike140 » Mon May 13, 2013 7:05 pm

Mal Reynolds wrote:
mike140 wrote:Thanks for the advice everyone. I'm 26 years old and can't take another year off. I've already quit my job and based everything off of going to law school this fall. If Syracuse is that bad then should I look into transferring?


No.




Sarcasm? I'm confused.

sparty99
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Re: Advice needed!

Postby sparty99 » Mon May 13, 2013 7:08 pm

mike140 wrote:
Mal Reynolds wrote:
mike140 wrote:Thanks for the advice everyone. I'm 26 years old and can't take another year off. I've already quit my job and based everything off of going to law school this fall. If Syracuse is that bad then should I look into transferring?


No.




Sarcasm? I'm confused.


What he meant to say, is, you are already f*cking up. In order to transfer, you have to be in the top 10% and probably more like top 5%. Thus, out of a class of 200 students, you would have to beat out 190 other students.

You better find another job, because Syracuse sucks.

Mal Reynolds
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Re: Advice needed!

Postby Mal Reynolds » Mon May 13, 2013 7:09 pm

mike140 wrote:
Mal Reynolds wrote:
mike140 wrote:Thanks for the advice everyone. I'm 26 years old and can't take another year off. I've already quit my job and based everything off of going to law school this fall. If Syracuse is that bad then should I look into transferring?


No.




Sarcasm? I'm confused.


No.

PM2353
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Re: Advice needed!

Postby PM2353 » Mon May 13, 2013 7:13 pm

Can you give a little more info on how you came to the decision of attending law school and some other info about yourself.

-Undergrad/Major
-Jobs you had in the past
-Are your parents well off? Can you rely on them for finances?

Things like this can paint a better picture of yourself and can get better advice from users

mike140
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Re: Advice needed!

Postby mike140 » Mon May 13, 2013 7:18 pm

PM2353 wrote:Can you give a little more info on how you came to the decision of attending law school and some other info about yourself.

-Undergrad/Major
-Jobs you had in the past
-Are your parents well off? Can you rely on them for finances?

Things like this can paint a better picture of yourself and can get better advice from users




Sure.

Suffolk University - Boston, MA/BSBA
Worked for US Trust for 6+ years in private wealth management, estate planning, and trust administration
Parents are not well off and I will be financing this with government loans.

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ManoftheHour
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Re: Advice needed!

Postby ManoftheHour » Mon May 13, 2013 7:24 pm

mike140 wrote:Thanks for the advice everyone. I'm 26 years old and can't take another year off. I've already quit my job and based everything off of going to law school this fall. If Syracuse is that bad then should I look into transferring?


Beg your boss for your job back and then study for the LSAT. I wish I could buy your retakes if you're not gonna use them...

<----Has taken the LSAT two times and wishes he had more than one more shot at it.

PM2353
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Re: Advice needed!

Postby PM2353 » Mon May 13, 2013 7:29 pm

Mike140

There is a ton of data out there to give a better picture of what the odds of you securing a legal job. First, go to lawschooltransparency.com and look up how many find employment at various schools. Next, look up the ABA data on what actual jobs these grads are getting. If they boast a 60% employed but 30% is hired by the school and 30% work in firms of 2-10 lawyers (meaning grad students banded up together to try to survive) then it might mean that the school isnt your best bet.

If your making anything over 40k then I would 1,000 percent stay working. That is what most lawyers start out with but the problem is they have so much debt they cant pay it back. They find trouble getting a mortgage. They work exhausting hours. These lawyers IF THEY EVEN FIND A JOB are getting paid nothing with 200k+ debt.

Most users on this site aim to get into the top 14 schools, these schools provide the best chance to attain a job that can pay back student loans without living ridiculously cheap.

Get a free tuition somewhere. Pay for the cost of living via student loans if you must.


Not everybody wants to work in big law. Some people (like yourself? hopefully) just want to do small law. and that is perfectly fine. But you have to be smart about it. Get a free education, build connections, and work hard.

PM2353
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Re: Advice needed!

Postby PM2353 » Mon May 13, 2013 7:35 pm

Did you receive any money from the university?

If you have to go to Syracuse, work hard, get the best grades (easier said than done, just search: are law school grades arbitrary?) and transfer to a state flagship or a place that will give you a free education.

Look into repayment plans like IBR, PAYE, PSLF.

If you find employment in public service like government then after 10 years of payments your loan can be forgiven. Devise a plan of how to take care of the debt.


But if it were me, I would 100 percent try to stay at that job and retake the LSAT. If you put in real effort then you can get a 160. that and a good gpa and some good softs should get you in a good school

mike140
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Re: Advice needed!

Postby mike140 » Mon May 13, 2013 9:13 pm

PM2353 wrote:Did you receive any money from the university?

If you have to go to Syracuse, work hard, get the best grades (easier said than done, just search: are law school grades arbitrary?) and transfer to a state flagship or a place that will give you a free education.

Look into repayment plans like IBR, PAYE, PSLF.

If you find employment in public service like government then after 10 years of payments your loan can be forgiven. Devise a plan of how to take care of the debt.


But if it were me, I would 100 percent try to stay at that job and retake the LSAT. If you put in real effort then you can get a 160. that and a good gpa and some good softs should get you in a good school



I received $20,000/year (primarily based on my accomplishments I'm assuming). I know that my path would have been easier had I been accepted to a top 14 school but if I network, get excellent grades, and take full advantage of my time there then is there some hope for a reasonably successful career? How can it possibly be this black and white? And how would law schools outside of the top 14 survive in this case?

Please - someone give me some hope!

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rinkrat19
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Re: Advice needed!

Postby rinkrat19 » Mon May 13, 2013 9:20 pm

Some hope? Sure.

Out of a graduating class of 185 students:

20 got jobs at firms with more than 25 lawyers.
23 got government jobs.
11 got public interest jobs.
3 got federal clerkships.

That's all the hope Syracuse deserves.

mike140
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Re: Advice needed!

Postby mike140 » Mon May 13, 2013 9:26 pm

That's quite scary. How do law schools stay in existence then? This just doesn't add up to me.

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stillwater
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Re: Advice needed!

Postby stillwater » Mon May 13, 2013 9:28 pm

mike140 wrote:That's quite scary. How do law schools stay in existence then? This just doesn't add up to me.


you need to do A LOT more research man. there's a lot of information out there that will allow you to make an informed decision. i just think you should be cautious about trying to shoot the moon. think of it as one year deferred, instead of a lifetime of broken dreams, large debt and dead-end prospects.

PM2353
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Re: Advice needed!

Postby PM2353 » Mon May 13, 2013 9:29 pm

It's a corrupt system dude. It's been referred to as the law school scam for some time now. You are at an advantage though. You are discovering this for the first time right now. Others, many many others, just assume "lawyers make a ton of money" any JD will do. This may have been true in the past but its no longer true.

Is it unethical for university's to charge an insane amount of money for tuition? Yes, an emphatic yes. Some say even criminal. (Search lawsuits students have filed against schools)

But can you blame them? This is a free market and if you are unwilling to do the research and pay 200k plus to attend school then they are going to charge you.

Is the employment prospects good for any job right now? Nope. I know someone out of school working 3 jobs paying for undergrad debt. They range from customer service operator to public cashier. He was a bright kid with a liberal arts degree. What I'm getting at is no matter how smart you are shiz is real tough nowadays.

http://www.lstscorereports.com/?school= ... e&show=ABA

Here is the ABA data on Syracuse. Notice how 41 of 185 are unemployed. These people I guarentee are smart hard working individuals. Their family and friends were so proud of them when they got accepted. But they had insurmountable odds against them.

And of the people who did find employment. Only 85 ish required a law degree. Less then half. 23 being start ups that usually fail. And only 10 kids got big law. This means an after tax of about 100k to pay for 250k debt.

Do more research. Get more informed. Let us know what you find. Read JDunderground.com (bitter lawyers who know first hand the perils of law school)
Last edited by PM2353 on Mon May 13, 2013 9:32 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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rinkrat19
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Re: Advice needed!

Postby rinkrat19 » Mon May 13, 2013 9:30 pm

mike140 wrote:That's quite scary. How do law schools stay in existence then? This just doesn't add up to me.

Because most people don't examine the employment numbers that carefully. They see the "98% employment!" on the website, which includes everyone hired by the school or slinging coffee at Starbucks, and dive in. And then there are a fair number of people who think they're guaranteed to be the special snowflake who wins the lottery by placing top of the class at a crappy school, because they're going to "hustle."

PM2353
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Re: Advice needed!

Postby PM2353 » Mon May 13, 2013 9:38 pm

Like I said. Don't think of this as a huge let down. You have found a wealth of knowledge here at TLS. You should spend the next couple days perusing this website. Asking questions, finding answers. You owe it to yourself.

Life's not going to end cause you dedicated your time and efforts to Syracuse. If you decide to wait a year, find a study regimen for the LSAT, and drill like crazy. In the meantime, investigate other professional schools. Investigate other career options. Rework your resume and send it out to positions out of your reach and see if you can move up somewhere.


Best of luck dude


Edit: at the very least, ask for more money at Syracuse. Say you need more or your leaving because of the recent aba data

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ManOfTheMinute
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Re: Advice needed!

Postby ManOfTheMinute » Mon May 13, 2013 9:42 pm

Mal Reynolds wrote:
mike140 wrote:
Mal Reynolds wrote:
mike140 wrote:You make some very good points. Shouldn't something be said for the type of alumni network a school like Syracuse University has? That combined with the JD/MPA opportunity makes it very appealing to me.


This is blatant stupidity.



Do you have any advice to give? Or did you just want to be rude for the sake of being rude?


You're trying to convince yourself to go to a terrible law school. If you don't retake the LSAT you will be strapping yourself with huge amounts of debt for dubious job prospects at best. Specialty rankings mean absolutely nothing. A top ranked MPA program should hold as much weight as the quality of cafeteria food at the school. Retake the LSAT or don't go to law school.


Nathan Fillion speaks the truth

mike140
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Re: Advice needed!

Postby mike140 » Mon May 13, 2013 9:50 pm

Thanks, once again, to all of you. I know that this may be second nature to all of you but it's very new to me. I was looking at some of the law school employment stats and the Syracuse prospects weren't good. Most schools weren't that good, however. Even many top-14 schools had very deplorable employment numbers.

PM2353
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Re: Advice needed!

Postby PM2353 » Mon May 13, 2013 9:59 pm

mike140 wrote:Thanks, once again, to all of you. I know that this may be second nature to all of you but it's very new to me. I was looking at some of the law school employment stats and the Syracuse prospects weren't good. Most schools weren't that good, however. Even many top-14 schools had very deplorable employment numbers.


Maybe not "deplorable", but your absolutely correct, they aren't very good. And there's no shame in not knowing any of this. I certainly didn't know.

But by yourself you stumbled onto something very unsettling. Even at the most prestigious top law schools grads have awful outcomes. Compare those numbers to per recession numbers and the difference is day and night.

Keep researching. Keep asking questions (I ask questions almost everyday), and Find what path works best for your goals.

mike140
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Re: Advice needed!

Postby mike140 » Mon May 13, 2013 10:19 pm

Ahhh goodness! This is so frustrating! I've always been interested in law and truly have a passion for it. I guess I'll have to do my best 1L at Syracuse and transfer.

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rinkrat19
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Re: Advice needed!

Postby rinkrat19 » Mon May 13, 2013 10:24 pm

mike140 wrote:Ahhh goodness! This is so frustrating! I've always been interested in law and truly have a passion for it. I guess I'll have to do my best 1L at Syracuse and transfer.

Don't go to a school you wouldn't be comfortable and happy to graduate from. Everyone thinks they're going to finish in the top 5-10% necessary to transfer somewhere decent. 90-95% of them don't.

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Clearly
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Re: Advice needed!

Postby Clearly » Mon May 13, 2013 11:26 pm

rinkrat19 wrote:
mike140 wrote:Ahhh goodness! This is so frustrating! I've always been interested in law and truly have a passion for it. I guess I'll have to do my best 1L at Syracuse and transfer.

Don't go to a school you wouldn't be comfortable and happy to graduate from. Everyone thinks they're going to finish in the top 5-10% necessary to transfer somewhere decent. 90-95% of them don't.

This, for the love of God don't bank on a transfer. You have control over your LSAT, retake if you want better options. To transfer up is not entirely in your hands, you have to rank high in a class full of other people also looking to transfer, and you'll be competing with at least a few kids that had the numbers and intelligence to go to a better school and opted to take full schollys at your school. After you beat out all of these kids you might be able to transfer to a decent school, but may face transfer stigma or be looked at differently at OCI, will have a hard time getting letters of rec for clerkships, etc.

If you want a better output, your only option is to improve your input. Retake.

mike140
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Re: Advice needed!

Postby mike140 » Mon May 13, 2013 11:51 pm

I really cannot afford to take another year off. If I work for the next year then it would be meaningless and not contribute to my career at all. I'm more confident in my abilities to make the most of law school and hope for the best. Who knows - I may end up liking Syracuse, appreciating the prospects I have, and staying. I'm 26 and it's already scary enough thinking that I'll be 29 when I graduate. I truly look at going to law school now as the lesser of two evils. I studied my butt off for the LSAT and wasn't able to score much higher than mid-150s. If that means I'll have to do more to prove myself in law school then so be it.

I'm not trying to go against anything any of you have said. I'm so grateful for all of the good advice given. I'm simply trying to use this great information to my advantage and do what's best for me in both the short and long term.

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Clearly
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Re: Advice needed!

Postby Clearly » Tue May 14, 2013 12:00 am

mike140 wrote:I really cannot afford to take another year off. If I work for the next year then it would be meaningless and not contribute to my career at all. I'm more confident in my abilities to make the most of law school and hope for the best. Who knows - I may end up liking Syracuse, appreciating the prospects I have, and staying. I'm 26 and it's already scary enough thinking that I'll be 29 when I graduate. I truly look at going to law school now as the lesser of two evils. I studied my butt off for the LSAT and wasn't able to score much higher than mid-150s. If that means I'll have to do more to prove myself in law school then so be it.

I'm not trying to go against anything any of you have said. I'm so grateful for all of the good advice given. I'm simply trying to use this great information to my advantage and do what's best for me in both the short and long term.

And I appreciate your attitude and demeanor for this whole thread, I really do...but the undeniably best thing to do for yourself is to take another year off, retake and reapply with competitive numbers. That, or don't go to law school. I'm the same age, and I took time off to retake, and I'm glad I did. There are people here that will tell you not to go to Cuse for FREE, much less near sticker. I understand you want to be a lawyer, and I can identify...but you have to be willing to make sacrifices, and right now, that might mean taking time off and retaking. It's only a year...You're choosing to look at that year as not furthering your career, but the reality is if you come back with a significantly improved LSAT, it's improved your career more so than anything else you could have done. What is your UGPA, and how long /how did you study for the LSAT?




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