Tell the ABA how to fix our Profession

(Applications Advice, Letters of Recommendation . . . )
User avatar
prezidentv8
Posts: 2821
Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2008 5:33 am

Re: Tell the ABA to make accreditation harder and close TTTTs

Postby prezidentv8 » Thu May 09, 2013 1:24 am

Tekrul wrote:This trend continues all the way down the chain until we reach the last ABA accredited school.


I disagree with you on a lot of the points you made, but wanted to just say:

TURTLES ALL THE WAY DOWN

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turtles_all_the_way_down

User avatar
star fox
Posts: 13677
Joined: Fri Feb 01, 2013 4:13 pm

Re: Tell the ABA how to fix our Profession

Postby star fox » Thu May 09, 2013 1:47 am

kappycaft1 wrote:See, this whole "unfair" shit is what is killing the legal industry. It "isn't fair" that some states wouldn't have accredited law schools? Why not? If you wanted to study Azerbaijan but no colleges in your state offered courses on that language, would it be "unfair" to expect you to leave the state if you so sought out that sort of education? Nobody is forcing you to study that particular thing, right? If we were saying that "the state of Wyoming isn't allowed to have any food" it would be one thing, but to remove accredited law schools from a region isn't unfair at all if the schools aren't meeting certain educational standards.

What isn't fair (to the legal community) is the fact that so many people think that everyone should "have a chance" to become a lawyer if they so desire, and at the same time expect to have the convenience of proximity to a law school so that they can receive a legal education locally. This type of idealistic thinking is complete and utter bullshit. Not every state needs an accredited law school, and it is okay for there to be more than one law school in certain states. Furthermore, everyone and their dog doesn't need to have a shot at law school just because they spent some time in college and a few hours (or maybe 0 hours) studying for the law school admission test.

Life doesn't need to be "fair." It needs to be "realistic."


This is missing the point. University of Wyoming Law School which currently charges $13,428 in resident tuition is not the problem with legal education right now. A far bigger problem is these second and third tier private schools that charge over $45,000 in tuition in the cities that have a demand for Big Law Attorneys. They are just completely flooding the market with a useless over saturation of "well-rounded citizens" that Lila C. Milford thinks is so critical. This carries over into the problem into these small state Law Schools have as well. I have no idea how many attorneys the state of Wyoming needs but it's probably more than 0. Not a bad idea to have a place for some locals to go if they want to stick around.

User avatar
Tom Joad
Posts: 4542
Joined: Thu Dec 04, 2008 5:56 pm

Re: Tell the ABA how to fix our Profession

Postby Tom Joad » Thu May 09, 2013 2:00 am

john7234797 wrote:
kappycaft1 wrote:See, this whole "unfair" shit is what is killing the legal industry. It "isn't fair" that some states wouldn't have accredited law schools? Why not? If you wanted to study Azerbaijan but no colleges in your state offered courses on that language, would it be "unfair" to expect you to leave the state if you so sought out that sort of education? Nobody is forcing you to study that particular thing, right? If we were saying that "the state of Wyoming isn't allowed to have any food" it would be one thing, but to remove accredited law schools from a region isn't unfair at all if the schools aren't meeting certain educational standards.

What isn't fair (to the legal community) is the fact that so many people think that everyone should "have a chance" to become a lawyer if they so desire, and at the same time expect to have the convenience of proximity to a law school so that they can receive a legal education locally. This type of idealistic thinking is complete and utter bullshit. Not every state needs an accredited law school, and it is okay for there to be more than one law school in certain states. Furthermore, everyone and their dog doesn't need to have a shot at law school just because they spent some time in college and a few hours (or maybe 0 hours) studying for the law school admission test.

Life doesn't need to be "fair." It needs to be "realistic."


This is missing the point. University of Wyoming Law School which currently charges $13,428 in resident tuition is not the problem with legal education right now. A far bigger problem is these second and third tier private schools that charge over $45,000 in tuition in the cities that have a demand for Big Law Attorneys. They are just completely flooding the market with a useless over saturation of "well-rounded citizens" that Lila C. Milford thinks is so critical. This carries over into the problem into these small state Law Schools have as well. I have no idea how many attorneys the state of Wyoming needs but it's probably more than 0. Not a bad idea to have a place for some locals to go if they want to stick around.

It's not really the fault of the scam law schools. More the dumb students that go to them and mostly the dumb politicians that give them government loans. Private schools aren't charities.

User avatar
Skye
Posts: 165
Joined: Sun Nov 18, 2012 2:51 pm

Re: Tell the ABA how to fix our Profession

Postby Skye » Thu May 09, 2013 2:02 am

I have come to accept the system, as is. Obviously, there is empathy for those who are duped by sales pitches claiming their TT school will make you a successful rich lawyer like the ones you see on TV. But c’mon, we live in the world of the internet where anyone with any sense can check out what is really going on. As incredible as it seems, the TLS threads are filled with those choosing schools that are obviously a road to nowhere. If people were just a tiny bit smart the schools with low employment would already be closing their doors.

The ABA isn’t about to close any schools —they won’t even stand in the way of new schools opening. For a variety of reasons the government isn’t likely to cut funding.

It gets down to the marketplace, as it always does.

timbs4339
Posts: 2733
Joined: Sat Apr 02, 2011 12:19 pm

Re: Tell the ABA how to fix our Profession

Postby timbs4339 » Thu May 09, 2013 2:06 am

Skye wrote:I have come to accept the system, as is. Obviously, there is empathy for those who are duped by sales pitches claiming their TT school will make you a successful rich lawyer like the ones you see on TV. But c’mon, we live in the world of the internet where anyone with any sense can check out what is really going on. As incredible as it seems, the TLS threads are filled with those choosing schools that are obviously a road to nowhere. If people were just a tiny bit smart the schools with low employment would already be closing their doors.

The ABA isn’t about to close any schools —they won’t even stand in the way of new schools opening. For a variety of reasons the government isn’t likely to cut funding.

It gets down to the marketplace, as it always does.


It just doesn't ever occur to them that there is anything "to check out." They don't have friends or relatives who go to law school or are lawyers. They don't have parents who read the NYT or the Atlantic. They were raised to believe that higher education is the answer, education debt is good debt, lawyers are all rich, blah blah blah. Telling some people that they might be broke and unemployed at the end of three years in law school is like telling them the sky is yellow.

The people who are on TLS, even those posting "NYLS v Touro v Hofstra have to decide today plz thx no retake" are a well-informed subset of all law school applicants.

User avatar
prezidentv8
Posts: 2821
Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2008 5:33 am

Re: Tell the ABA to make accreditation harder and close TTTTs

Postby prezidentv8 » Thu May 09, 2013 2:13 am

timbs4339 wrote:
justonemoregame wrote:Somebody tell Lila C. Milford to shut her yapper. And come back in two years and ask how her classmates are managing their loan debt.

http://www.americanbar.org/content/dam/aba/administrative/professional_responsibility/taskforcecomments/201305_lila_milford_comment.authcheckdam.pdf


That was stupid and poorly written.

User avatar
Skye
Posts: 165
Joined: Sun Nov 18, 2012 2:51 pm

Re: Tell the ABA how to fix our Profession

Postby Skye » Thu May 09, 2013 2:16 am

timbs4339 wrote:The people who are on TLS, even those posting "NYLS v Touro v Hofstra have to decide today plz thx no retake" are a well-informed subset of all law school applicants.

If you go to some of the TLS school sites there are those all excited because they think they have a good chance to get off some TT waitlist. It is mindboggling.

User avatar
star fox
Posts: 13677
Joined: Fri Feb 01, 2013 4:13 pm

Re: Tell the ABA how to fix our Profession

Postby star fox » Thu May 09, 2013 2:17 am

Tom Joad wrote:
john7234797 wrote:
kappycaft1 wrote:See, this whole "unfair" shit is what is killing the legal industry. It "isn't fair" that some states wouldn't have accredited law schools? Why not? If you wanted to study Azerbaijan but no colleges in your state offered courses on that language, would it be "unfair" to expect you to leave the state if you so sought out that sort of education? Nobody is forcing you to study that particular thing, right? If we were saying that "the state of Wyoming isn't allowed to have any food" it would be one thing, but to remove accredited law schools from a region isn't unfair at all if the schools aren't meeting certain educational standards.

What isn't fair (to the legal community) is the fact that so many people think that everyone should "have a chance" to become a lawyer if they so desire, and at the same time expect to have the convenience of proximity to a law school so that they can receive a legal education locally. This type of idealistic thinking is complete and utter bullshit. Not every state needs an accredited law school, and it is okay for there to be more than one law school in certain states. Furthermore, everyone and their dog doesn't need to have a shot at law school just because they spent some time in college and a few hours (or maybe 0 hours) studying for the law school admission test.

Life doesn't need to be "fair." It needs to be "realistic."


This is missing the point. University of Wyoming Law School which currently charges $13,428 in resident tuition is not the problem with legal education right now. A far bigger problem is these second and third tier private schools that charge over $45,000 in tuition in the cities that have a demand for Big Law Attorneys. They are just completely flooding the market with a useless over saturation of "well-rounded citizens" that Lila C. Milford thinks is so critical. This carries over into the problem into these small state Law Schools have as well. I have no idea how many attorneys the state of Wyoming needs but it's probably more than 0. Not a bad idea to have a place for some locals to go if they want to stick around.

It's not really the fault of the scam law schools. More the dumb students that go to them and mostly the dumb politicians that give them government loans. Private schools aren't charities.


We're the richest, most powerful country in the world. Unfortunately, we are like 17th in education so we're not really all that smart as a whole. We're also #1 in confidence (nice job boomers) so unfortunately, we're going to need to protect people from themselves and their crazy, unrealistic ambitions that capitalism thrives on. Can't have a whole generation of people taking out massive student loans that they will be unable to pay back. Bad for America. It's all institutionalized now though so good luck getting reform. Safe to say we fucked that up badly.

timbs4339
Posts: 2733
Joined: Sat Apr 02, 2011 12:19 pm

Re: Tell the ABA how to fix our Profession

Postby timbs4339 » Thu May 09, 2013 2:19 am

Skye wrote:
timbs4339 wrote:The people who are on TLS, even those posting "NYLS v Touro v Hofstra have to decide today plz thx no retake" are a well-informed subset of all law school applicants.

If you go to some of the TLS school sites there are those all excited because they think they have a good chance to get off some TT waitlist. It is mindboggling.


Eh, not really. Those schools tend to draw from a certain subset of the applicant pool for which getting into any law school is an achievement in and of itself. It's similar to the people who are excited to go to expensive online universities. Unfortunately we need to exercise a bit of paternalism here and cut off the federal loan spigot or place severe restrictions on tuition and class sizes. I don't really see any social benefit to what law professors produce that justifies subsidizing people's terrible life choices.

User avatar
star fox
Posts: 13677
Joined: Fri Feb 01, 2013 4:13 pm

Re: Tell the ABA how to fix our Profession

Postby star fox » Thu May 09, 2013 2:25 am

timbs4339 wrote:
Skye wrote:
timbs4339 wrote:The people who are on TLS, even those posting "NYLS v Touro v Hofstra have to decide today plz thx no retake" are a well-informed subset of all law school applicants.

If you go to some of the TLS school sites there are those all excited because they think they have a good chance to get off some TT waitlist. It is mindboggling.


Eh, not really. Those schools tend to draw from a certain subset of the applicant pool for which getting into any law school is an achievement in and of itself. It's similar to the people who are excited to go to expensive online universities. Unfortunately we need to exercise a bit of paternalism here and cut off the federal loan spigot or place severe restrictions on tuition and class sizes. I don't really see any social benefit to what law professors produce that justifies subsidizing people's terrible life choices.


Bingo. Going to law school should never be an end goal in itself and yet it is for so many people. 3 years after already going to school for an undergraduate degree.. mind boggling. Rich parents willing to throw around money for their 23 year old children have to be part of the problem here too.. can't blame them entirely but if they're helping the student put up with some of the cost of living partially and encourage them to go to law school because you're special, follow your heart, blah blah blah then that's encouraging them to take out big loans to pay tuition and the rest of the COL. Years later the parents are confused why the 28 year old kid is doing doc review with their J.D.

User avatar
Skye
Posts: 165
Joined: Sun Nov 18, 2012 2:51 pm

Re: Tell the ABA how to fix our Profession

Postby Skye » Thu May 09, 2013 2:29 am

timbs4339 wrote:
Skye wrote:If you go to some of the TLS school sites there are those all excited because they think they have a good chance to get off some TT waitlist. It is mindboggling.


Eh, not really. Those schools tend to draw from a certain subset of the applicant pool for which getting into any law school is an achievement in and of itself. It's similar to the people who are excited to go to expensive online universities.

Probably true, but to me, that is simply bewildering.
Unfortunately we need to exercise a bit of paternalism here and cut off the federal loan spigot or place severe restrictions on tuition and class sizes....

Agreed, but simply put, not going to happen.

User avatar
A. Nony Mouse
Posts: 22814
Joined: Tue Sep 25, 2012 11:51 am

Re: Tell the ABA how to fix our Profession

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Thu May 09, 2013 9:25 am

Tekrul wrote:Freezing/lowering tuition keeps cropping up as an idea. My post regarding how the economics of that move is on the bottom of page 1. It got no visibility as we've moved on the page 2, but if you send in proposals to Mr. Garwin, please read it first before choosing to include a section on tuition. It is absolutely the wrong way to go.

I guess I didn't understand the economics of your argument. What about non-American countries where college/university tuition is extremely cheap/free, and which don't see the default "BA required for anything" kind of attitude? I'm thinking about, say, Germany, where higher ed charges no or extremely low tuition, and yet far fewer people go on to higher ed.

timbs4339
Posts: 2733
Joined: Sat Apr 02, 2011 12:19 pm

Re: Tell the ABA how to fix our Profession

Postby timbs4339 » Thu May 09, 2013 9:29 am

john7234797 wrote:
timbs4339 wrote:
Skye wrote:
timbs4339 wrote:The people who are on TLS, even those posting "NYLS v Touro v Hofstra have to decide today plz thx no retake" are a well-informed subset of all law school applicants.

If you go to some of the TLS school sites there are those all excited because they think they have a good chance to get off some TT waitlist. It is mindboggling.


Eh, not really. Those schools tend to draw from a certain subset of the applicant pool for which getting into any law school is an achievement in and of itself. It's similar to the people who are excited to go to expensive online universities. Unfortunately we need to exercise a bit of paternalism here and cut off the federal loan spigot or place severe restrictions on tuition and class sizes. I don't really see any social benefit to what law professors produce that justifies subsidizing people's terrible life choices.


Bingo. Going to law school should never be an end goal in itself and yet it is for so many people. 3 years after already going to school for an undergraduate degree.. mind boggling. Rich parents willing to throw around money for their 23 year old children have to be part of the problem here too.. can't blame them entirely but if they're helping the student put up with some of the cost of living partially and encourage them to go to law school because you're special, follow your heart, blah blah blah then that's encouraging them to take out big loans to pay tuition and the rest of the COL. Years later the parents are confused why the 28 year old kid is doing doc review with their J.D.


The rich kids I can handle. The rich spend their money on frivolous shit all the time, what's wrong with adding law school to that list? The problem is that middle and lower class kids get it into their head that they should drop 200K on a shitty law school education too, the professors and deans have no problem taking their money, and the government has no problem lending them 200K with zero cost controls.

The rich kids are also more likely to have built-in networks and connections that will allow them to salvage something with a crap JD.

This article made my blood boil: http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm? ... wnload=yes

20141023
Posts: 3072
Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2012 12:17 am

Re: Tell the ABA how to fix our Profession

Postby 20141023 » Thu May 09, 2013 9:58 am

.
Last edited by 20141023 on Fri Sep 27, 2013 4:14 pm, edited 2 times in total.

timbs4339
Posts: 2733
Joined: Sat Apr 02, 2011 12:19 pm

Re: Tell the ABA how to fix our Profession

Postby timbs4339 » Thu May 09, 2013 10:27 am

kappycaft1 wrote:
john7234797 wrote:
kappycaft1 wrote:See, this whole "unfair" shit is what is killing the legal industry. It "isn't fair" that some states wouldn't have accredited law schools? Why not? If you wanted to study Azerbaijan but no colleges in your state offered courses on that language, would it be "unfair" to expect you to leave the state if you so sought out that sort of education? Nobody is forcing you to study that particular thing, right? If we were saying that "the state of Wyoming isn't allowed to have any food" it would be one thing, but to remove accredited law schools from a region isn't unfair at all if the schools aren't meeting certain educational standards.

What isn't fair (to the legal community) is the fact that so many people think that everyone should "have a chance" to become a lawyer if they so desire, and at the same time expect to have the convenience of proximity to a law school so that they can receive a legal education locally. This type of idealistic thinking is complete and utter bullshit. Not every state needs an accredited law school, and it is okay for there to be more than one law school in certain states. Furthermore, everyone and their dog doesn't need to have a shot at law school just because they spent some time in college and a few hours (or maybe 0 hours) studying for the law school admission test.

Life doesn't need to be "fair." It needs to be "realistic."


This is missing the point. University of Wyoming Law School which currently charges $13,428 in resident tuition is not the problem with legal education right now. A far bigger problem is these second and third tier private schools that charge over $45,000 in tuition in the cities that have a demand for Big Law Attorneys. They are just completely flooding the market with a useless over saturation of "well-rounded citizens" that Lila C. Milford thinks is so critical. This carries over into the problem into these small state Law Schools have as well. I have no idea how many attorneys the state of Wyoming needs but it's probably more than 0. Not a bad idea to have a place for some locals to go if they want to stick around.

I was using Wyoming as an example, but the point holds true for any school that isn't up to par, whether public or private, reasonably priced or exorbitantly expensive. Either way, your argument is exactly what I am saying is wrong with the current way of thinking. You basically assume that if someone cannot go to law school in Wyoming, then they cannot become a lawyer in Wyoming. If the national market wasn't super-saturated like it currently is, then this just wouldn't be true. Graduates of law school have a hard time going to different regions because, among other reasons, each region already has its feeder schools and is saturated with graduates from those institutions.

Also, even if it is cheap, why should the University of Wyoming be accredited when it only has a 50% employment rate? No matter where you go to law school, and no matter the cost of tuition and living expenses, the investment of 2~3+ years of one's life is the same for everyone, everywhere. By accrediting institutions that have consistently been unable to perform, the ABA is basically condoning the scamming that has gone on for so many years now.


Why can't the Wyoming students go get jobs in California, and we can close down UCH, UCD and other 45-50K bloated institutions that also have ~50% employment rates?

If you pay $13K/year for a legal education, you learn some shit, you spend 3 years in school, maybe make some connections, maybe get a lawyer job. If not you go to a non-law job and make 40K and pay off the debt in 10 years, sooner if you get some raises.

If you pay 50K/year for that legal education, you learn some shit, you spend 3 years in school, maybe make some connections, maybe get a lawyer job. But even if you get a lawyer job you still have a mountain to climb because you have a shitload of debt at age 26 and no way to pay it off except IBR.

There have always been a substantial number of losers in the law school game. The difference in the last 10 years is that those losers, and many of the "winners" are graduating with 200K in debt and no conceivable prospects that could even begin to put a dent in that.

20141023
Posts: 3072
Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2012 12:17 am

Re: Tell the ABA how to fix our Profession

Postby 20141023 » Thu May 09, 2013 11:50 am

.
Last edited by 20141023 on Fri Sep 27, 2013 4:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

muskies970
Posts: 340
Joined: Mon Nov 26, 2012 7:28 pm

Re: Tell the ABA how to fix our Profession

Postby muskies970 » Thu May 09, 2013 12:10 pm

Skye wrote:I have come to accept the system, as is. Obviously, there is empathy for those who are duped by sales pitches claiming their TT school will make you a successful rich lawyer like the ones you see on TV. But c’mon, we live in the world of the internet where anyone with any sense can check out what is really going on. As incredible as it seems, the TLS threads are filled with those choosing schools that are obviously a road to nowhere. If people were just a tiny bit smart the schools with low employment would already be closing their doors.

The ABA isn’t about to close any schools —they won’t even stand in the way of new schools opening. For a variety of reasons the government isn’t likely to cut funding.

It gets down to the marketplace, as it always does.


I think this is a fair point, however I think the attitude that a "free market" got us to this dilemma is a bit absurd. When people are being duped by misinformation and gov't subsidies are supporting individuals making poor decisions and the institutions that are profiteering a select few at the misfortune of others I think we can be skeptical that it's the abstract market doing its work...

bounded rationality, it's a harsh reality.

timbs4339
Posts: 2733
Joined: Sat Apr 02, 2011 12:19 pm

Re: Tell the ABA how to fix our Profession

Postby timbs4339 » Thu May 09, 2013 12:10 pm

kappycaft1 wrote:
timbs4339 wrote:Why can't the Wyoming students go get jobs in California, and we can close down UCH, UCD and other 45-50K bloated institutions that also have ~50% employment rates?

If you pay $13K/year for a legal education, you learn some shit, you spend 3 years in school, maybe make some connections, maybe get a lawyer job. If not you go to a non-law job and make 40K and pay off the debt in 10 years, sooner if you get some raises.

If you pay 50K/year for that legal education, you learn some shit, you spend 3 years in school, maybe make some connections, maybe get a lawyer job. But even if you get a lawyer job you still have a mountain to climb because you have a shitload of debt at age 26 and no way to pay it off except IBR.

There have always been a substantial number of losers in the law school game. The difference in the last 10 years is that those losers, and many of the "winners" are graduating with 200K in debt and no conceivable prospects that could even begin to put a dent in that.

I am just speaking in anecdotes... I really don't care which specific schools lose their accreditation; I just think that those who have been performing the worst should lose their accreditation from the bottom up; just as an arbitrary example, any school that cannot put at least 65% of its graduates into full-time, long-term, JD-required positions within 9 months of graduation shouldn't receive accreditation. :|


Well, when you close enough schools, the other schools will absorb some of those jobs.

Cost should also play a role though, for example, it doesn't make sense to keep 50K NYLS open and close 13K Wyoming just because Wyoming has 49% employed and NYLS has 52%.

If I was Law School Czar, I'd start by closing a bunch of higher-priced crappy private schools in the big cities, NYLS/Touro/Hofstra/Pace in NYC for example, and see where we end up after that.

User avatar
Skye
Posts: 165
Joined: Sun Nov 18, 2012 2:51 pm

Re: Tell the ABA how to fix our Profession

Postby Skye » Thu May 09, 2013 1:13 pm

timbs4339 wrote:Well, when you close enough schools. . . .

Nobody is closing any schools...ever.

Understand this: Only the schools can close their doors (period)... that only happens when leaving the doors open becomes unprofitable.

Mexico will stop running drugs when people stop paying for drugs.

Apples to apples analogy.

eric922
Posts: 311
Joined: Thu Nov 01, 2012 10:05 pm

Re: Tell the ABA how to fix our Profession

Postby eric922 » Thu May 09, 2013 1:15 pm

Skye wrote:
timbs4339 wrote:Well, when you close enough schools. . . .

Nobody is closing any schools...ever.

Understand this: Only the schools can close their doors (period)... that only happens when leaving the doors open becomes unprofitable.

Mexico will stop running drugs when people stop paying for drugs.

Apples to apples analogy.

Yeah, but the ABA can start taking accreditation away from these schools. That would probably hurt their profitability. Even someone who is thrilled to go to Cooley will likely be wary of attending an unaccredited law school.

User avatar
Skye
Posts: 165
Joined: Sun Nov 18, 2012 2:51 pm

Re: Tell the ABA how to fix our Profession

Postby Skye » Thu May 09, 2013 1:41 pm

eric922 wrote:
Skye wrote:
timbs4339 wrote:Well, when you close enough schools. . . .

Nobody is closing any schools...ever.

Understand this: Only the schools can close their doors (period)... that only happens when leaving the doors open becomes unprofitable.

Mexico will stop running drugs when people stop paying for drugs.

Apples to apples analogy.

Yeah, but the ABA can start taking accreditation away from these schools.

I would love to be the attorney defending the school[s].

Not because is it right.... just to prove countersuits can be very profitable.

timbs4339
Posts: 2733
Joined: Sat Apr 02, 2011 12:19 pm

Re: Tell the ABA how to fix our Profession

Postby timbs4339 » Thu May 09, 2013 2:18 pm

Skye wrote:
timbs4339 wrote:Well, when you close enough schools. . . .

Nobody is closing any schools...ever.

Understand this: Only the schools can close their doors (period)... that only happens when leaving the doors open becomes unprofitable.

Mexico will stop running drugs when people stop paying for drugs.

Apples to apples analogy.


It's a hypothetical.

But if a school loses accreditation, then there are no more federal loans. If there is no federal loan money, the school closes or becomes a 12K per year unaccredited school.

User avatar
star fox
Posts: 13677
Joined: Fri Feb 01, 2013 4:13 pm

Re: Tell the ABA how to fix our Profession

Postby star fox » Thu May 09, 2013 2:33 pm

kappycaft1 wrote:I was using Wyoming as an example, but the point holds true for any school that isn't up to par, whether public or private, reasonably priced or exorbitantly expensive. Either way, your argument is exactly what I am saying is wrong with the current way of thinking. You basically assume that if someone cannot go to law school in Wyoming, then they cannot become a lawyer in Wyoming. If the national market wasn't super-saturated like it currently is, then this just wouldn't be true. Graduates of law school have a hard time going to different regions because, among other reasons, each region already has its feeder schools and is saturated with graduates from those institutions.

Also, even if it is cheap, why should the University of Wyoming be accredited when it only has a 50% employment rate? No matter where you go to law school, and no matter the cost of tuition and living expenses, the investment of 2~3+ years of one's life is the same for everyone, everywhere. By accrediting institutions that have consistently been unable to perform, the ABA is basically condoning the scamming that has gone on for so many years now.

To use yet another analogy, let's say that you see a “Babe Ruth Rookie Card” on eBay for $300,000. You’ve wanted this card for a long time, and now is your chance, so you decide to buy it. Before finalizing the purchase, you notice that the seller has many less-than-stellar customer reviews, but there are also some customers who have left high ratings. You optimistically think “nobody can please everyone, and my purchase is guaranteed through eBay anyway,” and proceed to make the purchase. Three weeks later, you receive an envelope in the mail from the seller, and when you open it, you find a birthday card with a picture of young Babe Ruth cheaply printed on the front. “This isn’t what I paid for!” you think, but as you go back and look at the fine print on the product’s page, you notice that the seller specifically stated that they are selling “a card of Babe Ruth when he was a rookie.” You realize at this point that you’ve been scammed, and try to take action against the seller. Unfortunately, the court rules that after checking the seller’s review history, you shouldn’t have expected to get a real Babe Ruth rookie card; the wording on the product’s page also didn’t explicitly state that you would be receiving a valuable baseball card, so you were wrong to assume that you were buying such.

Interesting enough, I’ve seen an episode of Judge Judy ( :lol: ) where a seller was taken to court because she was sending buyers pictures of cell phones when they thought they would be getting actual phones. Even though the wording on the product’s page was vague enough to not condemn the seller, Judge Judy still ruled in favor of the plaintiff because the defendant had the intention of deceiving. The point here is that yes, you would have to be some level of dumb to make sure a purchase, but that doesn’t mean that the sellers of shady products shouldn’t be held accountable for their sketchy deals.


Sorry to keep harking back to Wyoming. But let's realize here that in 2012, they had a grand total of 75 graduates. They're hardly flooding the market with hoards of JDs and you could say they've done what you would want in a Law School in keeping class sizes small with how bad the market is. Getting rid of Wyoming really would do nothing in terms of correcting the market. I would much rather close big diploma mills even if they have a slightly better percentage of students receiving legal jobs upon graduation.

Look at how many useless graduates these EXTREMELY EXPENSIVE law schools are flooding on the market.
New York Law School: 601
Brooklyn: 466
Cardozo: 387
Hofstra: 363
St. John's: 281
Touro: 244
Albany: 233
Pace:230
Syracuse: 185

That's nine schools that charge over $40,000 in tuition just printing JDs and taking advantage of kids likely desire to work in a "big New York Law Firm" while their professors and administrators continue to live secure lives off of the federal government handing out student loans like candy. Of these nearly 3000, many will flounder around and end up doing some non-legal job to pay back their debt. Maybe some others will "steal" an available job from someone with better credentials because their uncle is a major partner or something. When you flood the market that badly that tends to mean bad news for everyone everywhere. Let's make New York Law School back the loans of the 601 future lawyers they're spitting out onto the profession and see how much longer they keep their doors open.

User avatar
nickb285
Posts: 1500
Joined: Mon Jul 16, 2012 4:25 pm

Re: Tell the ABA how to fix our Profession

Postby nickb285 » Thu May 09, 2013 3:01 pm

+1 to everything John is saying. Yes, U of Wyoming could do better. But those 75 grads in Wyoming, each of whom has an average debt of $61k, are not the problem in the legal education system. And as noted above, getting rid of the real problem schools--the Cooleys, TJSLs, and NYLSs--would likely free up enough jobs that grads of cheap, public, legitimate if low-ranked schools would have an easier go. After all, it's a lot easier to find attorney jobs for the 35 Wyoming grads not currently employed in LT/FT/BPR work, most of whom have mid-five figure debts, than it is to find jobs for the 364 NYLS grads not currently employed in LT/FT/BPR work, most of whom have six figures of debt.

Also, the ABA posted my comment--I was happy to see that they don't edit it out when you spend a paragraph or two talking shit on TJSL.

20141023
Posts: 3072
Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2012 12:17 am

Re: Tell the ABA how to fix our Profession

Postby 20141023 » Thu May 09, 2013 4:19 pm

.
Last edited by 20141023 on Fri Sep 27, 2013 4:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.




Return to “Law School Admissions Forum”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: BACsop, Bing [Bot], OhMyLaw and 4 guests