Tell the ABA how to fix our Profession

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20141023
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Re: Tell the ABA to make accreditation harder and close TTTTs

Postby 20141023 » Wed May 08, 2013 1:24 pm

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Winston1984
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Re: Tell the ABA to make accreditation harder and close TTTTs

Postby Winston1984 » Wed May 08, 2013 1:30 pm

kappycaft1 wrote:
nickb285 wrote:It's a fair point, Tekrul. Of course the argument could be made that maybe nobody who can get into at least a T2 school should be an attorney, but that probably won't appeal to the ABA much. Perhaps a better solution would be to 1. Require that any future tuition increases not exceed the rate of inflation, and 2. remove or alter the accreditation of any school with a less than 50% 65% LT/FT/BPR employment rate for 3-5 straight years.

FTFY :wink:


If all schools that couldn't place 50% their grads in LT/FT/BPR jobs were shut down, all other schools would increase dramatically, so it wouldn't even be necessary to raise it to 65%. I think it would be interesting to see law schools move towards the model of medical schools. Medical schools have such high standards, which means everyone cannot become a doctor. Imagine if all law schools had a LSAT median of at least 160. This would be a great step in the right direction.

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nickb285
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Re: Tell the ABA to make accreditation harder and close TTTTs

Postby nickb285 » Wed May 08, 2013 1:37 pm

kappycaft1 wrote:
nickb285 wrote:It's a fair point, Tekrul. Of course the argument could be made that maybe nobody who can get into at least a T2 school should be an attorney, but that probably won't appeal to the ABA much. Perhaps a better solution would be to 1. Require that any future tuition increases not exceed the rate of inflation, and 2. remove or alter the accreditation of any school with a less than 50% 65% LT/FT/BPR employment rate for 3-5 straight years.

FTFY :wink:


Eh, maybe in the future, but like Winston said part of the problem will correct itself. Besides, I don't necessarily think it's fair to judge, say, the University of Wyoming by the same standard as Whittier. Nor is it fair to judge Colorado-Boulder by the same standards as Denver U. Maybe 65% for private schools, 50% for publics? IMO, private schools need a much greater justification for their existence than public schools do.

BlueDiamond
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Re: Tell the ABA to make accreditation harder and close TTTTs

Postby BlueDiamond » Wed May 08, 2013 1:44 pm

Can the ABA do anything about stuff like North posted here: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=209018

My problem is I have no idea what the ABA can and cant regulate - like for example could they stop a school like Charlotte from saying they have a 90%+ employment rate nine months out by saying in any communication to prospective students you have to say such and such numbers are in long term, JD required jobs?

vinnnyvincenzo
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Re: Tell the ABA to make accreditation harder and close TTTTs

Postby vinnnyvincenzo » Wed May 08, 2013 1:45 pm

Winston1984 wrote:
kappycaft1 wrote:
nickb285 wrote:It's a fair point, Tekrul. Of course the argument could be made that maybe nobody who can get into at least a T2 school should be an attorney, but that probably won't appeal to the ABA much. Perhaps a better solution would be to 1. Require that any future tuition increases not exceed the rate of inflation, and 2. remove or alter the accreditation of any school with a less than 50% 65% LT/FT/BPR employment rate for 3-5 straight years.

FTFY :wink:


If all schools that couldn't place 50% their grads in LT/FT/BPR jobs were shut down, all other schools would increase dramatically, so it wouldn't even be necessary to raise it to 65%. I think it would be interesting to see law schools move towards the model of medical schools. Medical schools have such high standards, which means everyone cannot become a doctor. Imagine if all law schools had a LSAT median of at least 160. This would be a great step in the right direction.

Def agree with the bolded. I think the ABA should make a minimum standard that any matriculating student at an accredited school needs to meet, not necessarily solely LSAT but some standard to prevent morons from going.

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North
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Re: Tell the ABA to make accreditation harder and close TTTTs

Postby North » Wed May 08, 2013 1:48 pm

Winston1984 wrote:I think it would be interesting to see law schools move towards the model of medical schools. Medical schools have such high standards, which means everyone cannot become a doctor. Imagine if all law schools had a LSAT median of at least 160. This would be a great step in the right direction.

This is my dream.

Exceptions for public state flagships only.

marcfj
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Re: Tell the ABA to make accreditation harder and close TTTTs

Postby marcfj » Wed May 08, 2013 1:50 pm

It would be interesting to see the effect of allowing student loan debt to be dischargeable such that a lender could lose money for making a loan that didn't get repaid. My guess is actual underwriting would ensue and unless you paid your own money, very few people would be given loans to attend TTT schools. These schools would not last long and the problem would be solved by the market, without waiting for the ABA.

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justonemoregame
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Re: Tell the ABA to make accreditation harder and close TTTTs

Postby justonemoregame » Wed May 08, 2013 1:51 pm

Requiring an LSAT of 150 or higher would wipe out thousands of law students every year (like 10,000), which means it would save thousands from crushing law school loan debt, and miraculously improve employment numbers. These are the people most likely to not get jobs that can service their debt (or get law jobs at all). If you're worried about the next great legal mind being locked out under this system, then hedge that bet by requiring a minimum LSAT/GPA composite if you score lower than a 150. It could even be something very forgiving, like if you have 147-149 and a 3.2-3.4, then you're fine.

If somebody has a 146 / 2.99 and they just really really really wanna go to law school, then make them appeal to some higher board for approval - if they can't A) score higher on the LSAT and/or B) do well in college and/or C) jump through some administrative hoops, then can we just give up on them?

Do people really feel that if it's possible for a dozen people out of hundreds to succeed, it's worth sacrificing thousands for several dozen to do so? Without standards, we have "the greatest good for the greatest number" vice versa.

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ManOfTheMinute
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Re: Tell the ABA to make accreditation harder and close TTTTs

Postby ManOfTheMinute » Wed May 08, 2013 1:51 pm

North wrote:
Winston1984 wrote:I think it would be interesting to see law schools move towards the model of medical schools. Medical schools have such high standards, which means everyone cannot become a doctor. Imagine if all law schools had a LSAT median of at least 160. This would be a great step in the right direction.

This is my dream.


Agreed! Someone said something about limiting increases in tuition - thats a separate issue (and one I don't agree with), so you shouldn't muddy up this issue with talk of that one

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ph5354a
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Re: Tell the ABA to make accreditation harder and close TTTTs

Postby ph5354a » Wed May 08, 2013 1:57 pm

North wrote:
Winston1984 wrote:I think it would be interesting to see law schools move towards the model of medical schools. Medical schools have such high standards, which means everyone cannot become a doctor. Imagine if all law schools had a LSAT median of at least 160. This would be a great step in the right direction.

This is my dream.

20141023
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Re: Tell the ABA to make accreditation harder and close TTTTs

Postby 20141023 » Wed May 08, 2013 2:20 pm

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eric922
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Re: Tell the ABA to make accreditation harder and close TTTTs

Postby eric922 » Wed May 08, 2013 3:26 pm

North wrote:
Winston1984 wrote:I think it would be interesting to see law schools move towards the model of medical schools. Medical schools have such high standards, which means everyone cannot become a doctor. Imagine if all law schools had a LSAT median of at least 160. This would be a great step in the right direction.

This is my dream.

Exceptions for public state flagships only.

Just curious, why the exception for public flagships? My state flagship, ranked in the 60s, has an LSAT median of 160. It does have fairly cheap tuition like less than 18K for in-state students, but a lot of state schools are pretty expensive.

eric922
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Re: Tell the ABA to make accreditation harder and close TTTTs

Postby eric922 » Wed May 08, 2013 3:31 pm

marcfj wrote:It would be interesting to see the effect of allowing student loan debt to be dischargeable such that a lender could lose money for making a loan that didn't get repaid. My guess is actual underwriting would ensue and unless you paid your own money, very few people would be given loans to attend TTT schools. These schools would not last long and the problem would be solved by the market, without waiting for the ABA.

Congress would have to do this, though. I do think it's a good idea. In fact, I think Campos mentioned that the discharge rate for student loans when it was possible was around 1% or less. So it isn't like there was a problem with that. The other writer on Campos's blog mentioned sort of a compromise. Since a lot of people end up hating being a lawyer, loans should be discharged in exchange for the loss your license to practice law. Sadly, I don't think anyone in Congress has proposed allowing loans to be discharged. Elizabeth Warren did recently introduce a bill to lower student loan interest rates to the same amount as large banks, which according to the article I read is 0.75%.

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JamesDean1955
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Re: Tell the ABA to make accreditation harder and close TTTTs

Postby JamesDean1955 » Wed May 08, 2013 3:32 pm

kappycaft1 wrote:To expand on the law school:medical school analogy, nobody wants an incompetent twit operating on them, so medical schools limit people who can enter their programs to those with certain backgrounds, grades, standardized test score, etc. It would be both unfair and unrealistic to assume that anyone can become a doctor; not allowing someone with Down Syndrome to perform heart transplants isn't discriminating against the disabled - it is taking preventative measure against potentially catastrophic outcomes. Now, take "disabled people" (= people who simply cannot do certain things no matter how hard they try) down a notch to mere "stupid people" (= people who have potential but who don't study, don't try, don't care, etc.) in general. Nobody wants a "stupid person" operating on them either, so medical school has at least some hurdles that potential doctors must overcome in order to become licensed medical practitioners. Whereas doctors are "medicinae doctors," or doctors of medicine, lawyers are "juris doctors," or doctors of jurisprudence. However someone wanting to become the latter can have majored in basket weaving during undergrad and gotten a 25th percentile score on the law school entry exam and still become a "doctor of law." These are the people who will be "qualified" to perform heart transplants (M&A) on major corporations and do all other kinds of "doctorly" things.

Accordingly, I think that it is only fair to the public that 1) law schools enforce stricter entrance criteria, and 2) law schools are judged according to their placement into actual legal work and not just how graduates do on a test.


Damn, I'm just going to email them your post. 'Nough said.

eric922
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Re: Tell the ABA to make accreditation harder and close TTTTs

Postby eric922 » Wed May 08, 2013 3:41 pm

kappycaft1 wrote:To expand on the law school:medical school analogy, nobody wants an incompetent twit operating on them, so medical schools limit people who can enter their programs to those with certain backgrounds, grades, standardized test score, etc. It would be both unfair and unrealistic to assume that anyone can become a doctor; not allowing someone with Down Syndrome to perform heart transplants isn't discriminating against the disabled - it is taking preventative measure against potentially catastrophic outcomes. Now, take "disabled people" (= people who simply cannot do certain things no matter how hard they try) down a notch to mere "stupid people" (= people who have potential but who don't study, don't try, don't care, etc.) in general. Nobody wants a "stupid person" operating on them either, so medical school has at least some hurdles that potential doctors must overcome in order to become licensed medical practitioners. Whereas doctors are "medicinae doctors," or doctors of medicine, lawyers are "juris doctors," or doctors of jurisprudence. However someone wanting to become the latter can have majored in basket weaving during undergrad and gotten a 25th percentile score on the law school entry exam and still become a "doctor of law." These are the people who will be "qualified" to perform heart transplants (M&A) on major corporations and do all other kinds of "doctorly" things.

Accordingly, I think that it is only fair to the public that 1) law schools enforce stricter entrance criteria, and 2) law schools are judged according to their placement into actual legal work and not just how graduates do on a test.

Just curious. In regards to keeping out "stupid people" medical schools have pre-med programs that help ensure people at least understand the basics of medical science and won't be completely lost when they get to med school. Do you think law schools should create something like that? A pre-law program that actually ensures that people who get into law schools will at least be able to understand the material? Of course, I don't know what a program like this could look like and maybe it isn't possible for law. I'm just trying to figure out a way to reduce the number of lawyers since that is one of the biggest problems with the legal profession.

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JamesDean1955
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Re: Tell the ABA how to fix our Profession

Postby JamesDean1955 » Wed May 08, 2013 3:44 pm

^ I think that would only create more needless lawyers, not less. The biggest problem isn't so much that TTT lawyers are out there doing bad jobs as it is that TTT lawyers exist in the first place.

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sinfiery
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Re: Tell the ABA how to fix our Profession

Postby sinfiery » Wed May 08, 2013 3:46 pm

FWIW, I don't think the ABA and USNWR are the same agency.


Personally, I think if a school becomes an ABA accredited law school, they should be absolutely forced to publish certain employment data in a very specific and straightforward manner that sits on the side of a conservative estimate that is distinctly interlaced with the cost of attending. This data should also be plastered all over the LSAC website where you create your application.

eric922
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Re: Tell the ABA how to fix our Profession

Postby eric922 » Wed May 08, 2013 3:47 pm

JamesDean1955 wrote:^ I think that would only create more needless lawyers, not less.

I didn't really think it through all the way when I posted, but I did just see a major problem with an actual "pre-law" program. It will saddle a lot of people with a useless degree and likely make them even more determined to go to law school even if they can't make it. Honestly, I think the best thing would be to tie accreditation to employment figures and a minimum median LSAT of 160.

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sinfiery
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Re: Tell the ABA how to fix our Profession

Postby sinfiery » Wed May 08, 2013 3:48 pm

JamesDean1955 wrote:^ I think that would only create more needless lawyers, not less. The biggest problem isn't so much that TTT lawyers are out there doing bad jobs as it is that TTT lawyers exist in the first place.

I disagree. If someone wants to be a lawyer, let them. The biggest problem is that people are getting into life ruining debt without ever really realizing they had no chance to pay it off.

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Renne Walker
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Re: Tell the ABA how to fix our Profession

Postby Renne Walker » Wed May 08, 2013 3:54 pm

Winston1984 wrote: I think it would be interesting to see law schools move towards the model of medical schools. Medical schools have such high standards, which means everyone cannot become a doctor. Imagine if all law schools had a LSAT median of at least 160. This would be a great step in the right direction.

This clearly is (and has been) the perfect blueprint.

When did the medical school cutoff policy go into effect? How was it implemented (quickly or in baby steps over time)? How did they overcome the resistant (which I assume was formidable)?

It would seem to me the ABA has been confronted with this option in the past, if so, was their position made public - and what was their actual stated position?

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justonemoregame
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Re: Tell the ABA how to fix our Profession

Postby justonemoregame » Wed May 08, 2013 3:56 pm

sinfiery wrote:
JamesDean1955 wrote:^ I think that would only create more needless lawyers, not less. The biggest problem isn't so much that TTT lawyers are out there doing bad jobs as it is that TTT lawyers exist in the first place.

I disagree. If someone wants to be a lawyer, let them. The biggest problem is that people are getting into life ruining debt without ever really realizing they had no chance to pay it off.


I dunno though, some people need to just be handcuffed from the ability to make the stupid decision in the first place. There will be thousands upon thousands of people making a poor financial decision this year despite all the googleable warning signs. And googleable direct evidence.

20141023
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Re: Tell the ABA how to fix our Profession

Postby 20141023 » Wed May 08, 2013 4:00 pm

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TheThriller
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Re: Tell the ABA how to fix our Profession

Postby TheThriller » Wed May 08, 2013 4:09 pm

kappycaft1 wrote:
Renne Walker wrote:
Winston1984 wrote: I think it would be interesting to see law schools move towards the model of medical schools. Medical schools have such high standards, which means everyone cannot become a doctor. Imagine if all law schools had a LSAT median of at least 160. This would be a great step in the right direction.

This clearly is (and has been) the perfect blueprint.

When did the medical school cutoff policy go into effect? How was it implemented (quickly or in baby steps over time)? How did they overcome the resistant (which I assume was formidable)?

It would seem to me the ABA has been confronted with this option in the past, if so, was their position made public - and what was their actual stated position?

The only problem is that doctors are doctors. Lawyers are lawmakers and politicians, so changing things in the legal realm means that you're going up against a bunch of professional arguers.


Well Ken Jeong is an actor

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sinfiery
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Re: Tell the ABA how to fix our Profession

Postby sinfiery » Wed May 08, 2013 4:14 pm

justonemoregame wrote:
I dunno though, some people need to just be handcuffed from the ability to make the stupid decision in the first place. There will be thousands upon thousands of people making a poor financial decision this year despite all the googleable warning signs. And googleable direct evidence.

I am inclined to agree.with you on schools such as Cooley, FIU and American which are absolutely outrageous in their cost relative to employment numbers but there are a lot of state schools that are between that and extreme of HYS which would serve a good function to certain communities at a certain price.

So I suppose a mix. The ABA definitely needs to do something (or even congress) about the just outright terrible schools but there is some grey area that should be handled by a more transparent set of data. Imo atleast.

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Renne Walker
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Re: Tell the ABA how to fix our Profession

Postby Renne Walker » Wed May 08, 2013 5:04 pm

The focus should clearly be on the LSAT (or GPA/LSAT mix) for ABA accreditation. Only a fool would attend an unaccredited LS.

Maybe the good news is that there are lawyers and especially politicians involved. At some point tens of thousands of law students will be unable to repay their loans… now the politicians will a ready made solution.




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