Tell the ABA how to fix our Profession

(Applications Advice, Letters of Recommendation . . . )
User avatar
nickb285
Posts: 1500
Joined: Mon Jul 16, 2012 4:25 pm

Re: Tell the ABA how to fix our Profession

Postby nickb285 » Tue May 14, 2013 5:38 pm

You're probably right, she probably would have screwed up her life some other way. But I feel bad for her in the same way I feel bad for people whose friends rope them into pyramid schemes. Yeah, she should have done her research and all that. But I think it's despicable to look at someone who's obviously not all that bright and take advantage of them to the tune of $150,000 when you're selling yourself as an institution of higer learning. This isn't someone emailing her claiming to be a Nigerian prince, this is a school that the recognized licensing authority in the nation has given an air of legitimacy. That's like getting an email from a Nigerian scammer and having someone from the State Department assure you that he's on the level. Caveat emptor, sure, but it's utterly shameful that the organization which is supposed to ensure the legitimacy of law schools is neglecting their duty so thoroughly.

eric922
Posts: 311
Joined: Thu Nov 01, 2012 10:05 pm

Re: Tell the ABA how to fix our Profession

Postby eric922 » Tue May 14, 2013 5:43 pm

The fact that she isn't too bright doesn't make Cooley any less of con artists for taking advantage of her.

User avatar
JamesDean1955
Posts: 744
Joined: Sun Jul 29, 2012 4:06 pm

Re: Tell the ABA how to fix our Profession

Postby JamesDean1955 » Tue May 14, 2013 6:02 pm

I mean, if you're talking about someone who has decided on Georgetown at sticker because his/her parents/friends/employer/other shitboomers have all stared at him/her wide eyed with admiration and told him/her to go because Georgetown is the absolute best law school ever (I've run into many older lawyers who equate Georgetown with Harvard and Yale), and this person decides on Georgetown, goes, graduates with $250k debt and a shitlaw job, and will never pay back their debt, that's different.

This is Cooley. Arguably one of the worst schools in the nation. And if I'm not mistaken (I didn't go back to check this) she worked in the legal industry prior to going to law school. She should have been able to make a more mature, informed and practical decision.

I still don't feel bad for her. Is Cooley to blame for something here/should they be shut down? Absolutely. But that doesn't detract from her responsibility to do her HW and not take everything at face value. In the Georgetown example, that person has a right to be upset, it would be very hard for one to believe that Georgetown isn't all it's cracked up to be, and I'd feel bad for them.

Edited to add stuff/etc.
Last edited by JamesDean1955 on Tue May 14, 2013 6:05 pm, edited 3 times in total.

User avatar
jrsbaseball5
Posts: 290
Joined: Fri Mar 09, 2012 12:41 pm

Re: Tell the ABA how to fix our Profession

Postby jrsbaseball5 » Tue May 14, 2013 6:02 pm

JamesDean1955 wrote:I don't feel bad for her at all, idk what happened ITT where everyone is now sympathizing. Caveat emptor. She's clearly not too bright. She would have screwed up her life some other way probably, or just settled for a mediocre lower middle class life with no debt but no significant savings and no risk taking.


Sure, she absolutely should have done her research and figured out that this probably was not going to be a good idea. This is the exact type of person that these schools are looking to have fill their seats and pay 40k+ in tuition. That is where the problem is. And even assuming she would have screwed up her life at some point I highly doubt she would have done so to the tune of 200k.

timbs4339
Posts: 2733
Joined: Sat Apr 02, 2011 12:19 pm

Re: Tell the ABA how to fix our Profession

Postby timbs4339 » Tue May 14, 2013 6:09 pm

JamesDean1955 wrote:I mean, if you're talking about someone who has decided on Georgetown at sticker because his/her parents/friends/employer/other shitboomers have all stared at him/her wide eyed with admiration and told him/her to go because Georgetown is the absolute best law school ever (I've run into many older lawyers who equate Georgetown with Harvard and Yale), and this person decides on Georgetown, goes, graduates with $250k debt and a shitlaw job, and will never pay back their debt, that's different.

This is Cooley. Arguably one of the worst schools in the nation. And if I'm not mistaken (I didn't go back to check this) she worked in the legal industry prior to going to law school. She should have been able to make a more mature, informed and practical decision.

I still don't feel bad for her. Is Cooley to blame for something here/should they be shut down? Absolutely. But that doesn't detract from her responsibility to do her HW and not take everything at face value. In the Georgetown example, that person has a right to be upset, it would be very hard for one to believe that Georgetown isn't all it's cracked up to be, and I'd feel bad for them.

Edited to add stuff/etc.


I thought this kind of reasoning was dead when the entire economy went belly up in 2007 and we realized that we all don't live in little bubbles completely divorced from everyone else's stupid financial decisions egged on by greedy people.

User avatar
JamesDean1955
Posts: 744
Joined: Sun Jul 29, 2012 4:06 pm

Re: Tell the ABA how to fix our Profession

Postby JamesDean1955 » Tue May 14, 2013 6:12 pm

^ But for someone her age, I could see how she'd still think that. Not everyone spends as much time on TLS/the internet as we do, and I could totally see this happening and feel bad about it. Plus there would be a lot of external reinforcement telling her that it is a good decision as I mentioned. It's Georgetown after all, it's not all that long ago they were a fantastic law school option. Cooley has never been a fantastic law school option. Who the hell would tell someone else that Cooley is a great school? Other than lawyers way out in the middle of nowhere bummblefuck Michigan, anyways.

User avatar
A. Nony Mouse
Posts: 22879
Joined: Tue Sep 25, 2012 11:51 am

Re: Tell the ABA how to fix our Profession

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Tue May 14, 2013 6:34 pm

Not that this really gets to the issue of what to tell the ABA, but someone who is as committed to the idea that life experience COUNTS and she has WISDOM that's not reflected by the bogus LSAT and GPA requirements of most law schools as this letter writer is would probably fall for Cooley's rhetoric about looking at the WHOLE PERSON.

(At least, I'm assuming Cooley uses that rhetoric, since they don't have anything else to justify why they're admitting people with such poor scores.)

User avatar
Renne Walker
Posts: 546
Joined: Sat Jan 29, 2011 2:12 am

Re: Tell the ABA how to fix our Profession

Postby Renne Walker » Tue May 14, 2013 6:35 pm

I remember when I got the bright idea of taking something called the LSAT. Little later I received emails, brochures, etc. from some big name schools that were definitely cool. Then somehow or another I ran into the USNWR and TLS. That changed everything. Those schools were no longer cool. I saw schools on the top part of the list that I had never heard of and some I rarely ever thought of. Chicago, NYU, Penn (which had to mean Penn State) and then there were schools I knew a little about about only because of TV sports.

Point being; if I could finally figure it out, why can’t everyone else? It was clear that the economy was in the tank and there were gobs of “don’t go to law school and here’s why” articles floating around to give pause even to an offer from a school in something called the T-14.

I understand the appeal of attending a local school the natives love. But I do not (and probably never will) understand traveling out of state to somewhere you really have no desire to be at a school ranked in something called the tier-2 or 3, etc. Nevertheless they pack their bags and there they go. I mean seriously, some of this stuff just does not make any sense to me. What are these people thinking?

timbs4339
Posts: 2733
Joined: Sat Apr 02, 2011 12:19 pm

Re: Tell the ABA how to fix our Profession

Postby timbs4339 » Tue May 14, 2013 7:09 pm

Renne Walker wrote:I remember when I got the bright idea of taking something called the LSAT. Little later I received emails, brochures, etc. from some big name schools that were definitely cool. Then somehow or another I ran into the USNWR and TLS. That changed everything. Those schools were no longer cool. I saw schools on the top part of the list that I had never heard of and some I rarely ever thought of. Chicago, NYU, Penn (which had to mean Penn State) and then there were schools I knew a little about about only because of TV sports.

Point being; if I could finally figure it out, why can’t everyone else? It was clear that the economy was in the tank and there were gobs of “don’t go to law school and here’s why” articles floating around to give pause even to an offer from a school in something called the T-14.

I understand the appeal of attending a local school the natives love. But I do not (and probably never will) understand traveling out of state to somewhere you really have no desire to be at a school ranked in something called the tier-2 or 3, etc. Nevertheless they pack their bags and there they go. I mean seriously, some of this stuff just does not make any sense to me. What are these people thinking?


How did you find TLS or USNWR?

User avatar
TheBiggerMediocre
Posts: 121
Joined: Sun Mar 11, 2012 3:26 pm

Re: Tell the ABA how to fix our Profession

Postby TheBiggerMediocre » Tue May 14, 2013 7:16 pm

So is the consensus for the average person this:
T10=Full
T20=Full-COL
T30=120k debt
T40=90k debt
T50=75k debt
T60=60k debt
T70=50k debt
T80=40k debt
T100=Free
Ranked=Stipend
unranked= dumb or extremely locality based

*good schools I would/should not be aware of exlcluded

Renne Walker wrote:I remember when I got the bright idea of taking something called the LSAT. Little later I received emails, brochures, etc. from some big name schools that were definitely cool. Then somehow or another I ran into the USNWR and TLS. That changed everything. Those schools were no longer cool. I saw schools on the top part of the list that I had never heard of and some I rarely ever thought of. Chicago, NYU, Penn (which had to mean Penn State) and then there were schools I knew a little about about only because of TV sports.

Point being; if I could finally figure it out, why can’t everyone else? It was clear that the economy was in the tank and there were gobs of “don’t go to law school and here’s why” articles floating around to give pause even to an offer from a school in something called the T-14.

I understand the appeal of attending a local school the natives love. But I do not (and probably never will) understand traveling out of state to somewhere you really have no desire to be at a school ranked in something called the tier-2 or 3, etc. Nevertheless they pack their bags and there they go. I mean seriously, some of this stuff just does not make any sense to me. What are these people thinking?
Last edited by TheBiggerMediocre on Tue May 14, 2013 7:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
ph5354a
Posts: 1599
Joined: Thu Nov 01, 2012 7:40 pm

Re: Tell the ABA how to fix our Profession

Postby ph5354a » Tue May 14, 2013 7:16 pm

I wonder if some people aren't naturally inclined to consider rankings and quality of the program when they're making these decisions. When I first started looking at law schools, the first thing I did was to google "law school rankings" to see how my undergrad law school and others matched up (outed as prestige whore), though it wasn't until a little further in the process that I started really looking at employment stats. It's possible that some people, especially those who aren't more broadly familiar with graduate school/degrees, just think "hey, this school says ill get a scholarship if I get a 160 and they have the best employment stats of their peers. I should just go there!" It's really unfortunate.

timbs4339
Posts: 2733
Joined: Sat Apr 02, 2011 12:19 pm

Re: Tell the ABA how to fix our Profession

Postby timbs4339 » Tue May 14, 2013 7:21 pm

ph5354a wrote:I wonder if some people aren't naturally inclined to consider rankings and quality of the program when they're making these decisions. When I first started looking at law schools, the first thing I did was to google "law school rankings" to see how my undergrad law school and others matched up (outed as prestige whore), though it wasn't until a little further in the process that I started really looking at employment stats. It's possible that some people, especially those who aren't more broadly familiar with graduate school/degrees, just think "hey, this school says ill get a scholarship if I get a 160 and they have the best employment stats of their peers. I should just go there!" It's really unfortunate.


A lot of the people who are targeted by Cooley, NYLS, JMLS, TJSL, NESL, etc etc just are not from backgrounds where "college rankings" exist at all. Thet would never think to pick up a ranking system, and nobody they know reads USNWR. The woman quoted seems to be a non-trad who went to UG before rankings became a big deal and for whom getting into any college is a huge deal.

User avatar
kay2016
Posts: 1121
Joined: Mon Nov 05, 2012 11:23 am

Re: Tell the ABA how to fix our Profession

Postby kay2016 » Tue May 14, 2013 8:14 pm

timbs4339 wrote:
ph5354a wrote:I wonder if some people aren't naturally inclined to consider rankings and quality of the program when they're making these decisions. When I first started looking at law schools, the first thing I did was to google "law school rankings" to see how my undergrad law school and others matched up (outed as prestige whore), though it wasn't until a little further in the process that I started really looking at employment stats. It's possible that some people, especially those who aren't more broadly familiar with graduate school/degrees, just think "hey, this school says ill get a scholarship if I get a 160 and they have the best employment stats of their peers. I should just go there!" It's really unfortunate.


A lot of the people who are targeted by Cooley, NYLS, JMLS, TJSL, NESL, etc etc just are not from backgrounds where "college rankings" exist at all. Thet would never think to pick up a ranking system, and nobody they know reads USNWR. The woman quoted seems to be a non-trad who went to UG before rankings became a big deal and for whom getting into any college is a huge deal.


I am not a non trad, but I go to an unranked public school currently and never thought about rankings for undergrad, I thought about free.

I still googled something like "best law schools" and found USnews before I even decided for sure to take the LSAT.

timbs4339
Posts: 2733
Joined: Sat Apr 02, 2011 12:19 pm

Re: Tell the ABA how to fix our Profession

Postby timbs4339 » Tue May 14, 2013 9:16 pm

kayleighcheyenne wrote:
timbs4339 wrote:
ph5354a wrote:I wonder if some people aren't naturally inclined to consider rankings and quality of the program when they're making these decisions. When I first started looking at law schools, the first thing I did was to google "law school rankings" to see how my undergrad law school and others matched up (outed as prestige whore), though it wasn't until a little further in the process that I started really looking at employment stats. It's possible that some people, especially those who aren't more broadly familiar with graduate school/degrees, just think "hey, this school says ill get a scholarship if I get a 160 and they have the best employment stats of their peers. I should just go there!" It's really unfortunate.


A lot of the people who are targeted by Cooley, NYLS, JMLS, TJSL, NESL, etc etc just are not from backgrounds where "college rankings" exist at all. Thet would never think to pick up a ranking system, and nobody they know reads USNWR. The woman quoted seems to be a non-trad who went to UG before rankings became a big deal and for whom getting into any college is a huge deal.


I am not a non trad, but I go to an unranked public school currently and never thought about rankings for undergrad, I thought about free.

I still googled something like "best law schools" and found USnews before I even decided for sure to take the LSAT.


That doesn't really help you figure out whether these schools are good choices if you assume every law school is already a good choice. There are people who do not know any lawyers, law students, or recent grads who can clue them in. They don't read the NYT, WSJ, or Slate/Salon/Atlantic websites where a lot of the anti-law school publicity is strong.

User avatar
ManOfTheMinute
Posts: 1562
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2012 12:54 am

Re: Tell the ABA how to fix our Profession

Postby ManOfTheMinute » Tue May 14, 2013 9:25 pm

Why does TLS/north right up a nice letter and we can all sign it or send it ourselves? I feeling lazy

User avatar
Renne Walker
Posts: 546
Joined: Sat Jan 29, 2011 2:12 am

Re: Tell the ABA how to fix our Profession

Postby Renne Walker » Tue May 14, 2013 9:57 pm

timbs4339 wrote:How did you find TLS or USNWR?

I think I was using the Princeton Review for school data, rankings, etc. Somehow it or Google led me here.

I just (as in now) searched #1 law school and (wait for it) on top of the list was Widener followed by Concord law schools. Soooo… I see how the bait is set! But then it gave me THIS. With this I think someone could figure it out (theoretically anyway).

User avatar
JamesDean1955
Posts: 744
Joined: Sun Jul 29, 2012 4:06 pm

Re: Tell the ABA how to fix our Profession

Postby JamesDean1955 » Tue May 14, 2013 10:17 pm

Renne Walker wrote:
timbs4339 wrote:How did you find TLS or USNWR?

I think I was using the Princeton Review for school data, rankings, etc. Somehow it or Google led me here.

I just (as in now) searched #1 law school and (wait for it) on top of the list was Widener followed by Concord law schools. Soooo… I see how the bait is set! But then it gave me THIS. With this I think someone could figure it out (theoretically anyway).


Oh snap another ranking system showing Penn as a T6. I am gonna need more space for all these bookmarks.

CCP baby :P .

(Waits for the hordes to descend upon him...)

User avatar
laotze
Posts: 242
Joined: Fri Jul 27, 2012 12:55 pm

Re: Tell the ABA how to fix our Profession

Postby laotze » Tue May 14, 2013 11:04 pm

JamesDean1955 wrote:
Renne Walker wrote:
timbs4339 wrote:How did you find TLS or USNWR?

I think I was using the Princeton Review for school data, rankings, etc. Somehow it or Google led me here.

I just (as in now) searched #1 law school and (wait for it) on top of the list was Widener followed by Concord law schools. Soooo… I see how the bait is set! But then it gave me THIS. With this I think someone could figure it out (theoretically anyway).


Oh snap another ranking system showing Penn as a T6. I am gonna need more space for all these bookmarks.

CCP baby :P .

(Waits for the hordes to descend upon him...)



I love how the quote for Cornell is "Fordham, Penn, and Northwestern have been our best law recruits."

20141023
Posts: 3072
Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2012 12:17 am

Re: Tell the ABA how to fix our Profession

Postby 20141023 » Thu May 16, 2013 8:16 am

.
Last edited by 20141023 on Fri Sep 27, 2013 4:18 pm, edited 2 times in total.

User avatar
North
Posts: 4041
Joined: Wed Mar 02, 2011 7:09 pm

Re: Tell the ABA how to fix our Profession

Postby North » Thu May 16, 2013 8:42 am

It's beautiful.

User avatar
JamesDean1955
Posts: 744
Joined: Sun Jul 29, 2012 4:06 pm

Re: Tell the ABA how to fix our Profession

Postby JamesDean1955 » Thu May 16, 2013 9:56 am

Nice job kappycaft1 :)

User avatar
nickb285
Posts: 1500
Joined: Mon Jul 16, 2012 4:25 pm

Re: Tell the ABA how to fix our Profession

Postby nickb285 » Thu May 16, 2013 10:36 am

North wrote:It's beautiful.


Should have sent...a poet...

User avatar
JamesDean1955
Posts: 744
Joined: Sun Jul 29, 2012 4:06 pm

Re: Tell the ABA how to fix our Profession

Postby JamesDean1955 » Thu May 16, 2013 11:02 am

nickb285 wrote:
North wrote:It's beautiful.


Should have sent...a poet...


Are haikus credited? If so, I will send them a letter consisting solely of haikus.

User avatar
nickb285
Posts: 1500
Joined: Mon Jul 16, 2012 4:25 pm

Re: Tell the ABA how to fix our Profession

Postby nickb285 » Thu May 16, 2013 11:22 am

I actually want to see that now.

timbs4339
Posts: 2733
Joined: Sat Apr 02, 2011 12:19 pm

Re: Tell the ABA how to fix our Profession

Postby timbs4339 » Thu May 16, 2013 11:40 am

Nice analogy, but with a minimum LSAT score you're going to run up on the URM issue. I also don't see why you can't both lower the toll and turn drivers away at the same time.




Return to “Law School Admissions Forum”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: addie1412, bleakchimera2, brewpub16, Justtrying2help, proteinshake, Thomas Hagan, ESQ. and 16 guests