Tell the ABA how to fix our Profession

(Applications Advice, Letters of Recommendation . . . )
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chem
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Re: Tell the ABA how to fix our Profession

Postby chem » Tue May 14, 2013 12:34 pm

CupOfTea wrote:My boyfriend is going into medical school. Although both degrees are similar in price, his is guaranteed to be both lucrative and rewarding. Over 96% percent of US medical students match into a residency placement each year (paying about $48k a year) and following residency they go on to make salarys at or above $200k. Guaranteed.

From the LCME, here are just some parts of the the overview of the medical school accreditation standards that i found interesting:

To achieve and maintain accreditation, a medical education program leading to the M.D. degree in the
U.S. and Canada must meet the standards contained in the following document. The accreditation process requires a
medical education program to provide assurances that its graduates exhibit general professional
competencies that are appropriate for entry to the next stage of their training and that serve as the
foundation for lifelong learning and proficient medical care.
While recognizing the existence and
appropriateness of diverse institutional missions and educational objectives, the LCME subscribes to the
proposition that local circumstances do not justify accreditation of a substandard program of medical
education leading to the M.D. degree.

http://www.lcme.org/standard.htm

I am drafting my letter to the ABA now. I believe the law school model should be more like the medical school model. As it stands now, the profession of law is a joke.



Yes, going to medical school gives you good prospects of getting a job. But investment wise? Not the best return for your money. Four years of medical school, so there is another year of loans. Then you have residency from 3-6 years, and the lucrative jobs usually require longer residencies. In addition, the residencies that lead to lucrative positions are also usually as competitive as a t-14, maybe tending closer to HYSCCN

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laotze
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Re: Tell the ABA how to fix our Profession

Postby laotze » Tue May 14, 2013 12:41 pm

nickb285 wrote:


"My peers are interested in international business and only speak American."

Calling flame.


"If I ran the zoo [...] Perhaps some personality and skills interest tests. Do they naturally have the interest in law?"

Ibid on that flame call.
Also, "DO THEY HAS THE INTEREST" needs to be a meme five minutes ago. Someone should get on that.

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laotze
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Re: Tell the ABA how to fix our Profession

Postby laotze » Tue May 14, 2013 12:50 pm

chem wrote:
CupOfTea wrote:My boyfriend is going into medical school. Although both degrees are similar in price, his is guaranteed to be both lucrative and rewarding. Over 96% percent of US medical students match into a residency placement each year (paying about $48k a year) and following residency they go on to make salarys at or above $200k. Guaranteed.

From the LCME, here are just some parts of the the overview of the medical school accreditation standards that i found interesting:

To achieve and maintain accreditation, a medical education program leading to the M.D. degree in the
U.S. and Canada must meet the standards contained in the following document. The accreditation process requires a
medical education program to provide assurances that its graduates exhibit general professional
competencies that are appropriate for entry to the next stage of their training and that serve as the
foundation for lifelong learning and proficient medical care.
While recognizing the existence and
appropriateness of diverse institutional missions and educational objectives, the LCME subscribes to the
proposition that local circumstances do not justify accreditation of a substandard program of medical
education leading to the M.D. degree.

http://www.lcme.org/standard.htm

I am drafting my letter to the ABA now. I believe the law school model should be more like the medical school model. As it stands now, the profession of law is a joke.



Yes, going to medical school gives you good prospects of getting a job. But investment wise? Not the best return for your money. Four years of medical school, so there is another year of loans. Then you have residency from 3-6 years, and the lucrative jobs usually require longer residencies. In addition, the residencies that lead to lucrative positions are also usually as competitive as a t-14, maybe tending closer to HYSCCN


^ This. For someone at a mid- or low-tier med school without the grades or good fortune to get into a lucrative residency like dermatology, cardio or ortho surgery (which mostly get nabbed by the Harvard/Stanford/JHU crowd), a better long term investment might be a Physician Assistant degree, which will net them reliable work at a very respectable pay rate with only a fraction of the loans and time spent in school. Especially if they would otherwise be getting an osteopathic degree and/or considering lower paid fields like internal medicine, pediatrics, endocrinology, etc.

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jenesaislaw
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Re: Tell the ABA how to fix our Profession

Postby jenesaislaw » Tue May 14, 2013 1:03 pm

nickb285 wrote:


"My peers are interested in international business and only speak American."

Calling flame.


If she is a flame, s/he is EXTREMELY thorough: http://www.linkedin.com/pub/elizabeth-p ... 69/249/61b

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JamesDean1955
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Re: Tell the ABA how to fix our Profession

Postby JamesDean1955 » Tue May 14, 2013 1:13 pm

jenesaislaw wrote:
nickb285 wrote:


"My peers are interested in international business and only speak American."

Calling flame.


If she is a flame, s/he is EXTREMELY thorough: http://www.linkedin.com/pub/elizabeth-p ... 69/249/61b


Oh snap. :lol:

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: Tell the ABA how to fix our Profession

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Tue May 14, 2013 1:22 pm

Naw, she's not a flame - I used to teach non-trads like that. (TBH, I agree that in an ideal world admissions would be more holistic than they currently are. But I don't waste my time ranting about it because oh well, admissions aren't holistic, deal with it.)

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buddyt
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Re: Tell the ABA how to fix our Profession

Postby buddyt » Tue May 14, 2013 1:35 pm

I started picking out parts to quote here for the lulz, but honestly the whole thing is worth reading. On the one hand I feel bad for her: a 50-year-old woman with a horribly red balance sheet and a likely outcome as bleak as they come. On the other, she made a hugely uninformed decision by not taking 5 minutes to google Cooley and see that it is literally the worst law school in the country.

In related news, I spotted this gem a few days ago around the 101 & Broadway in the Phoenix area:
Image
COOLEY PRIDE

eric922
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Re: Tell the ABA how to fix our Profession

Postby eric922 » Tue May 14, 2013 1:39 pm

Ugh I just read Elizabeth's letter. One think that really stood at to me was the line about how she had a 2.8 GPA, but 8 years of work experience. She never mentioned her LSAT score, but it can't be above 160, because Cooley used to(and I think still does) give full rides to 160s. From her line about being a poor test taker, I get the feeling she only took the LSAT once and didn't study for it. What she doesn't seem to realize is that schools like Northwestern probably would have been impressed with 8 years of work experience if she had the LSAT score to back it up. It's people like this who make me think all schools should have to maintain 155 medians or lose accreditation.

rwhyAn
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Re: Tell the ABA how to fix our Profession

Postby rwhyAn » Tue May 14, 2013 2:12 pm

Buddytyler, you're making me miss my old days at ASU by posting that pic, and I spent plenty of time on the 101 on my way to and from Casino Arizona, which is partly the reason for my lackluster GPA.

Elizabeth is straight f***ed, but honestly, she should have known better, and I say that being more compassionate than most people on here. I'm surpised that the ABA even posted that letter with all of the grammatical errors in it. When I went to admitted student days and met some aspiring law students, it amazed me by how clueless some of them truly were. I met one girl who applied to schools ranging from Berkeley to Roger Williams and many other students who apparently had no problem dropping $150k+ on a TT. If nothing else, the ABA should make the schools furnish letters to their admits showing them the total cost of attendance and what their expected monthly loan payments would be. Not that these individuals shouldn't be aware of this already, but it would help drive home the fact that it will be a very expensive endeavor.

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Simplicity
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Re: Tell the ABA how to fix our Profession

Postby Simplicity » Tue May 14, 2013 2:22 pm

kappycaft1 wrote:

Elizabeth wrote:I did some work at a Paralegal.

Elizabeth wrote:I was an Workers Compensation Claims Adjuster for over 10 years.

Elizabeth wrote:... 4.0s on the undergrad...


Ahh fuck it... I was going to point out all her grammatical errors but there are too many. :lol:

I call flame too.

I am smart enough to an attorney.

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nickb285
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Re: Tell the ABA how to fix our Profession

Postby nickb285 » Tue May 14, 2013 2:35 pm

jenesaislaw wrote:
nickb285 wrote:


"My peers are interested in international business and only speak American."

Calling flame.


If she is a flame, s/he is EXTREMELY thorough: http://www.linkedin.com/pub/elizabeth-p ... 69/249/61b


Crap. That actually makes me really sad now. Sure, she should have done a whole lot more research, and she should not have gone to law school. A lot of that's on her. But how friggin' scummy do you have to be to take a person who is clearly unprepared for law school in every way, who clearly would be better off staying in the job she had before, who lacks even basic writing skills, and say "Sure ma'am, I'll take your $40,000 a year for three years! Sign here."

californiauser
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Re: Tell the ABA how to fix our Profession

Postby californiauser » Tue May 14, 2013 2:41 pm




Wow, the last few paragraphs are extremely troubling to me. This is the exact type of person who needs to be protected from themselves. She is clearly delusional.

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North
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Re: Tell the ABA how to fix our Profession

Postby North » Tue May 14, 2013 2:46 pm

nickb285 wrote:Crap. That actually makes me really sad now. Sure, she should have done a whole lot more research, and she should not have gone to law school. A lot of that's on her. But how friggin' scummy do you have to be to take a person who is clearly unprepared for law school in every way, who clearly would be better off staying in the job she had before, who lacks even basic writing skills, and say "Sure ma'am, I'll take your $40,000 a year for three years! Sign here."


Don't worry, the ABA will occasionally stop such institutions from opening.

Image

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buddyt
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Re: Tell the ABA how to fix our Profession

Postby buddyt » Tue May 14, 2013 2:47 pm

I am smart enough to an attorney.

Looks like she a word there. This was maybe my favorite part.

timbs4339
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Re: Tell the ABA how to fix our Profession

Postby timbs4339 » Tue May 14, 2013 3:19 pm

I read appellate briefs for a living and although the typos, grammar, style, and reasoning in her letter might frustrate me, I can't say it's the worst I've ever seen. She's not even an attorney yet, maybe she'll improve with practice.
Last edited by timbs4339 on Tue May 14, 2013 3:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

eric922
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Re: Tell the ABA how to fix our Profession

Postby eric922 » Tue May 14, 2013 3:21 pm

North wrote:
nickb285 wrote:Crap. That actually makes me really sad now. Sure, she should have done a whole lot more research, and she should not have gone to law school. A lot of that's on her. But how friggin' scummy do you have to be to take a person who is clearly unprepared for law school in every way, who clearly would be better off staying in the job she had before, who lacks even basic writing skills, and say "Sure ma'am, I'll take your $40,000 a year for three years! Sign here."


Don't worry, the ABA will occasionally stop such institutions from opening.

Image

I actually know someone who almost went to Lincoln Memorial. Luckily for her our professor convinced her against it.

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justonemoregame
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Re: Tell the ABA how to fix our Profession

Postby justonemoregame » Tue May 14, 2013 3:23 pm

This raises an interesting question - should you be allowed to take out loans in your 50s? A 25-year repayment plan puts you at or beyond life-expectancy. I mean, if you literally, literally can't pay them back...

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Clearly
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Re: Tell the ABA how to fix our Profession

Postby Clearly » Tue May 14, 2013 3:27 pm

justonemoregame wrote:This raises an interesting question - should you be allowed to take out loans in your 50s? A 25-year repayment plan puts you at or beyond life-expectancy. I mean, if you literally, literally can't pay them back...

I suppose economically, it depends if it's collateralized.

eric922
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Re: Tell the ABA how to fix our Profession

Postby eric922 » Tue May 14, 2013 3:28 pm

justonemoregame wrote:This raises an interesting question - should you be allowed to take out loans in your 50s? A 25-year repayment plan puts you at or beyond life-expectancy. I mean, if you literally, literally can't pay them back...

Good question. Some people really do need to be protected from themselves. This woman will likely be in debt until she is at least 75 and there is a chance she won't even get a legal job. It's bad enough for people in their 20s or 30s, but at least they can possibly start a new career if worst comes to worst, but who is going to hire a 50+ year old failed lawyer? I'd imagine it would be hard even getting entry level work.

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laotze
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Re: Tell the ABA how to fix our Profession

Postby laotze » Tue May 14, 2013 3:46 pm

North wrote:
nickb285 wrote:Crap. That actually makes me really sad now. Sure, she should have done a whole lot more research, and she should not have gone to law school. A lot of that's on her. But how friggin' scummy do you have to be to take a person who is clearly unprepared for law school in every way, who clearly would be better off staying in the job she had before, who lacks even basic writing skills, and say "Sure ma'am, I'll take your $40,000 a year for three years! Sign here."


Don't worry, the ABA will occasionally stop such institutions from opening.

http://i.imgur.com/2vMbmXl.jpg


No one in Philly seems to have a clue how Drexel got their provisional approval. The city already had FIVE law schools in the metro area, ranging from a T14 to a TTT, including two state schools and three private.
How the hell do institutions like that justify their existence to the ABA, particularly in the middle of a global economic recession? Are there any geographic standards of demand whatsoever, if not market-driven ones?

Already I know close to a dozen people throwing their lives away at this sparkling new TTTT, including two going at sticker because they didn't have the scores/grades for Rutgers Camden (!!!). No firms are interviewing there, and they already have their pick of the Temple/Villanova/Rutgers litter anyway (not to mention the handful of Penn grads who stay local), so where do people think they are going to get jobs from? Alumni connections, at a five-year-old school?

timbs4339
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Re: Tell the ABA how to fix our Profession

Postby timbs4339 » Tue May 14, 2013 3:52 pm

laotze wrote:
North wrote:
nickb285 wrote:Crap. That actually makes me really sad now. Sure, she should have done a whole lot more research, and she should not have gone to law school. A lot of that's on her. But how friggin' scummy do you have to be to take a person who is clearly unprepared for law school in every way, who clearly would be better off staying in the job she had before, who lacks even basic writing skills, and say "Sure ma'am, I'll take your $40,000 a year for three years! Sign here."


Don't worry, the ABA will occasionally stop such institutions from opening.

http://i.imgur.com/2vMbmXl.jpg


No one in Philly seems to have a clue how Drexel got their provisional approval. The city already had FIVE law schools in the metro area, ranging from a T14 to a TTT, including two state schools and three private.
How the hell do institutions like that justify their existence to the ABA, particularly in the middle of a global economic recession? Are there any geographic standards of demand whatsoever, if not market-driven ones?

Already I know close to a dozen people throwing their lives away at this sparkling new TTTT, including two going at sticker because they didn't have the scores/grades for Rutgers Camden (!!!). No firms are interviewing there, and they already have their pick of the Temple/Villanova/Rutgers litter anyway (not to mention the handful of Penn grads who stay local), so where do people think they are going to get jobs from? Alumni connections, at a five-year-old school?


Quite simply, you completely ignore the notion that graduate job prospects have anything to do with the need for a new law school, since what really matters is the "demand" for seats in law school. Or, you use macro statistics to obscure the real issues:

Syllabus

--LinkRemoved--
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=195434
http://insidethelawschoolscam.blogspot. ... views.html

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jrsbaseball5
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Re: Tell the ABA how to fix our Profession

Postby jrsbaseball5 » Tue May 14, 2013 3:55 pm

buddytyler wrote:I started picking out parts to quote here for the lulz, but honestly the whole thing is worth reading. On the one hand I feel bad for her: a 50-year-old woman with a horribly red balance sheet and a likely outcome as bleak as they come. On the other, she made a hugely uninformed decision by not taking 5 minutes to google Cooley and see that it is literally the worst law school in the country.

In related news, I spotted this gem a few days ago around the 101 & Broadway in the Phoenix area:
Image
COOLEY PRIDE


Pretty sure I've seen this same car :lol:

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jrsbaseball5
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Re: Tell the ABA how to fix our Profession

Postby jrsbaseball5 » Tue May 14, 2013 4:00 pm

nickb285 wrote:
jenesaislaw wrote:
nickb285 wrote:


"My peers are interested in international business and only speak American."

Calling flame.


If she is a flame, s/he is EXTREMELY thorough: http://www.linkedin.com/pub/elizabeth-p ... 69/249/61b


Crap. That actually makes me really sad now. Sure, she should have done a whole lot more research, and she should not have gone to law school. A lot of that's on her. But how friggin' scummy do you have to be to take a person who is clearly unprepared for law school in every way, who clearly would be better off staying in the job she had before, who lacks even basic writing skills, and say "Sure ma'am, I'll take your $40,000 a year for three years! Sign here."


I feel the same way. At first I wanted to laugh and point out all the funny stuff, but this is just downright depressing. Poor lady is going to be be absolutely destroyed by the debt that she already had that is now going to grow exponentially until it is impossible to pay off.

rwhyAn
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Re: Tell the ABA how to fix our Profession

Postby rwhyAn » Tue May 14, 2013 4:16 pm

eric922 wrote:
North wrote:
nickb285 wrote:Crap. That actually makes me really sad now. Sure, she should have done a whole lot more research, and she should not have gone to law school. A lot of that's on her. But how friggin' scummy do you have to be to take a person who is clearly unprepared for law school in every way, who clearly would be better off staying in the job she had before, who lacks even basic writing skills, and say "Sure ma'am, I'll take your $40,000 a year for three years! Sign here."


Don't worry, the ABA will occasionally stop such institutions from opening.

Image

I actually know someone who almost went to Lincoln Memorial. Luckily for her our professor convinced her against it.


Makes you wonder how bad LMU must be for them to be denied while some of these other shitholes get approved.

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JamesDean1955
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Re: Tell the ABA how to fix our Profession

Postby JamesDean1955 » Tue May 14, 2013 5:02 pm

I don't feel bad for her at all, idk what happened ITT where everyone is now sympathizing. Caveat emptor. She's clearly not too bright. She would have screwed up her life some other way probably, or just settled for a mediocre lower middle class life with no debt but no significant savings and no risk taking.




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