Tell the ABA how to fix our Profession

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Tom Joad
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Re: Tell the ABA how to fix our Profession

Postby Tom Joad » Sat May 11, 2013 11:01 pm

Clearlynotstefan wrote:
Tom Joad wrote:
valrath wrote:
Tom Joad wrote:I don't know why you guys are saying the LSAT should be the standard and not GPA.


Too many variables that can affect a student's GPA, including course load/major/extenuating circumstances. The LSAT is just a more universal standard for predicting law school success.

Lots of smart people are poor test takers though. Neither measure future career success. At least GPA measures hard work and dedication for 4 years. Lots of people can study for a month and get a 170, that doesn't show much.

Along those lines we should scrap the bar too?

The bar tests law. It is reasonably related to some knowledge of the law.

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Clearly
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Re: Tell the ABA how to fix our Profession

Postby Clearly » Sat May 11, 2013 11:58 pm

kappycaft1 wrote:
Tom Joad wrote:
valrath wrote:
Tom Joad wrote:I don't know why you guys are saying the LSAT should be the standard and not GPA.


Too many variables that can affect a student's GPA, including course load/major/extenuating circumstances. The LSAT is just a more universal standard for predicting law school success.

Lots of smart people are poor test takers though. Neither measure future career success. At least GPA measures hard work and dedication for 4 years. Lots of people can study for a month and get a 170, that doesn't show much.

No, it doesn't... But what we're saying is that even if they "pass" the LSAT then they still need a decent GPA to get into a decent school.

Even if someone isn't smart, if they spend enough time they will eventually get at least a 155 on the LSAT. We're only suggesting that they get a 65th percentile score... Not too much to ask. :wink:

Might have an interesting result on the test though, if people knew they had to do well to go to any school, more people would take it seriously, and I believe the average score would raise which would raise either ability it takes to hit that percentile, or the difficulty of the test over time. Sounds crazy, but trust me their are a lot of people that still think the LSAT is an aptitude test and not worth studying for, and they would be practically forced to study if there was a percentile cut-off.

jarofsoup
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Re: Tell the ABA how to fix our Profession

Postby jarofsoup » Sun May 12, 2013 12:05 am

Basically this is a consumer problem. People just need to stop going to bad schools. So I think it is about disclosure, and sanctions for not disclosing.

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kay2016
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Re: Tell the ABA how to fix our Profession

Postby kay2016 » Sun May 12, 2013 12:51 pm

What if it was an accreditation based minimum LSAT?

That wouldn't force people to study, but if the TTT and TTTT continued to keep accepting anyone they would lose accreditation and then government funding...

I have less pitty for the rich kids spending mom and dads money just for fun than the kids who get tricked into believing florida coastal is a great school and then have 100-200k in loans with no job prospects

timbs4339
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Re: Tell the ABA how to fix our Profession

Postby timbs4339 » Sun May 12, 2013 3:02 pm

jarofsoup wrote:Basically this is a consumer problem. People just need to stop going to bad schools. So I think it is about disclosure, and sanctions for not disclosing.


We have disclosure, and people are still going to bad schools because (a) they don't know what to do with themselves, (b) can get 200K in funding rather easily, (c) people are not rational actors.

timbs4339
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Re: Tell the ABA how to fix our Profession

Postby timbs4339 » Sun May 12, 2013 3:06 pm

Tom Joad wrote:
valrath wrote:
Tom Joad wrote:I don't know why you guys are saying the LSAT should be the standard and not GPA.


Too many variables that can affect a student's GPA, including course load/major/extenuating circumstances. The LSAT is just a more universal standard for predicting law school success.

Lots of smart people are poor test takers though. Neither measure future career success. At least GPA measures hard work and dedication for 4 years. Lots of people can study for a month and get a 170, that doesn't show much.


If they worked hard for four years why can't they work hard for the few months it takes to raise their LSAT score? There may be a few people with legitimate disabilities that prevent them from doing well on any timed exam (although then they will have a problem on law school exams, the bar, and in legal practice) but a lot of the people who are bad test-takers simply don't want to face the fact that it's a lot easier to get a 4.0 in Poly Sci at Southwesteasternnorthern Bumfuck State than it is to get a good LSAT score one out of three tries.

CupOfTea
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Re: Tell the ABA how to fix our Profession

Postby CupOfTea » Sun May 12, 2013 3:09 pm

My boyfriend is going into medical school. Although both degrees are similar in price, his is guaranteed to be both lucrative and rewarding. Over 96% percent of US medical students match into a residency placement each year (paying about $48k a year) and following residency they go on to make salarys at or above $200k. Guaranteed.

From the LCME, here are just some parts of the the overview of the medical school accreditation standards that i found interesting:

To achieve and maintain accreditation, a medical education program leading to the M.D. degree in the
U.S. and Canada must meet the standards contained in the following document. The accreditation process requires a
medical education program to provide assurances that its graduates exhibit general professional
competencies that are appropriate for entry to the next stage of their training and that serve as the
foundation for lifelong learning and proficient medical care.
While recognizing the existence and
appropriateness of diverse institutional missions and educational objectives, the LCME subscribes to the
proposition that local circumstances do not justify accreditation of a substandard program of medical
education leading to the M.D. degree.

http://www.lcme.org/standard.htm

I am drafting my letter to the ABA now. I believe the law school model should be more like the medical school model. As it stands now, the profession of law is a joke.

californiauser
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Re: Tell the ABA how to fix our Profession

Postby californiauser » Sun May 12, 2013 4:26 pm

CupOfTea wrote:My boyfriend is going into medical school. Although both degrees are similar in price, his is guaranteed to be both lucrative and rewarding. Over 96% percent of US medical students match into a residency placement each year (paying about $48k a year) and following residency they go on to make salarys at or above $200k. Guaranteed.

From the LCME, here are just some parts of the the overview of the medical school accreditation standards that i found interesting:

To achieve and maintain accreditation, a medical education program leading to the M.D. degree in the
U.S. and Canada must meet the standards contained in the following document. The accreditation process requires a
medical education program to provide assurances that its graduates exhibit general professional
competencies that are appropriate for entry to the next stage of their training and that serve as the
foundation for lifelong learning and proficient medical care.
While recognizing the existence and
appropriateness of diverse institutional missions and educational objectives, the LCME subscribes to the
proposition that local circumstances do not justify accreditation of a substandard program of medical
education leading to the M.D. degree.

http://www.lcme.org/standard.htm

I am drafting my letter to the ABA now. I believe the law school model should be more like the medical school model. As it stands now, the profession of law is a joke.


Are you familiar with the med school application process? Do they enforce minimum GPA and MCAT requirements? I'm way too lazy to look it up. Thanks.

Stinson
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Re: Tell the ABA how to fix our Profession

Postby Stinson » Sun May 12, 2013 4:42 pm

My fiance is in medical school. I don't think there's a minimum MCAT or GPA requirement for medical schools. But a more basic difference is that even if the medical community had looser accreditation standards, I still don't think a lot of people would be rushing to open up the Thomas Cooley School of Medicine. Med schools don't spin money for universities the way law schools do. Educating a medical student usually costs a lot more their tuition, because unlike law school it requires lots of expensive facilities and lots of people with specialized knowledge. (Cadavers cost money!)

That isn't to say, of course, that the medical profession doesn't take a much more rational approach. It graduates approximately as many students as there are residency positions, which is the equivalent of what the ABA ought to do - shut down schools until we're only graduating as many students as there are jobs. But looking a few pages ago at the list of ABA characters I have to say it looks grim - a lot of the top people are associated with some of the biggest crooks.

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laotze
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Re: Tell the ABA how to fix our Profession

Postby laotze » Sun May 12, 2013 6:27 pm

I wonder whether a lot of people talking about the strict med school admission standards are aware of how much easier osteopathic (DO) programs are to get into than allopathic (MD) programs. I know plenty of people with mediocre GPAs who practically bombed their MCATs and yet still managed to get into DO programs - quite a few from my high school, in fact.
They will be fully licensed physicians just the same, even though like most DOs they will probably have a more difficult time getting into the most sought-after residency programs.

Granted, the ease of entering a DO program is more likely akin to that of a low T1 or T2 school than a TTTT like Cooley, and a DO is likely to make more money, more reliably right out of school than a T2 law graduate (who will probably have a lot of difficulty getting a JD job right away, unless practicing locally), but let's not pretend all medical school entry is some colossal challenge through which only the most worthy may pass comparable across the board to, e.g., HYS law admission.

It is also virtually impossible to flunk out or otherwise be expelled from medical school, whether it's a top-tier MD like Penn or a DO like PCOM. Even the students who prove atrociously unsuited to doctoring (whatever their MCAT and Board scores) will be permitted to graduate and, in Penn's case, will have no trouble securing a position at most top hospitals in the country, with the exception of extremely competitive matches like dermatology. And even then they may have the social skills of a feral child, yet be allowed into a highly socially sensitive practice like psychiatry solely on the merits of their degree.

CupOfTea
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Re: Tell the ABA how to fix our Profession

Postby CupOfTea » Sun May 12, 2013 9:27 pm

to everything said above - completely true. (I love the part about the feral child - many of the people my boyfriend met had social skills that fit that description). But yes, when doctors are in high demand and there are residency placements for everyone then yes - everyone but the basest, most atrocious people have jobs after they graduate. of course, this includes DO graduates as well, who are considered a tier below MD schools. Personally I know a college classmate of mine who is a raging alcoholic and goes to a no-name DO school that is probably the lowest ranked in the country. But guess what? After taking out student loans of 200k he is going to get a job. He already has a pretty good residency lined up actually. That is a sound investment and is precisely what law schools should provide for their graduates. Give them the education they need to pass the bar, graduate roughly as many people as their are jobs available, and ensure the debt will be manageable when compared to the salaries obtained post-graduation.

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laotze
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Re: Tell the ABA how to fix our Profession

Postby laotze » Sun May 12, 2013 9:37 pm

CupOfTea wrote:After taking out student loans of 200k he is going to get a job. He already has a pretty good residency lined up actually. That is a sound investment and is precisely what law schools should provide for their graduates. Give them the education they need to pass the bar, graduate roughly as many people as their are jobs available, and ensure the debt will be manageable when compared to the salaries obtained post-graduation.


Totally agree. I just wanted to point out that the medical profession doesn't "create" this job security solely by keeping ill-suited applicants out of med school; I can't help but think it has a lot more to do with external market factors than that.
Higher ABA standards for accreditation can only be a good thing, but I doubt that that raising law school admission standards alone is going to fix the problems currently facing the legal profession.

20141023
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Re: Tell the ABA how to fix our Profession

Postby 20141023 » Mon May 13, 2013 5:07 am

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Last edited by 20141023 on Fri Sep 27, 2013 4:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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North
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Re: Tell the ABA how to fix our Profession

Postby North » Tue May 14, 2013 10:07 am


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sinfiery
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Re: Tell the ABA how to fix our Profession

Postby sinfiery » Tue May 14, 2013 10:20 am

Well, I think the only course of action to fight that is the death of the prestige associated with being a lawyer.

I mean she literally admitted she is taking on loans she can't pay back but claims to be ethical because she missed a week of class with the flu. I just..wtf...all because her dream is to be a lawyer and so nothing else should matter. Meh.



If there is a way, I will fuck up every part of my life to become a lawyer.
How on earth can you fight that mentality?

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ph5354a
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Re: Tell the ABA how to fix our Profession

Postby ph5354a » Tue May 14, 2013 10:25 am



More skills type courses. I don't think we do enough writing.


She was certainly effective in proving that point.

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JamesDean1955
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Re: Tell the ABA how to fix our Profession

Postby JamesDean1955 » Tue May 14, 2013 10:26 am

"Most of my peers don't brief."

Ummm right. Aren't you so special and bright.

"I don't think failing courses should count against you. I think everyone should get a do-over."

1. This is why people make fun of Cooley.
2. I hope this person gets hit by a bus (well, not really, I suppose having a Cooley degree is punishment enough).
Last edited by JamesDean1955 on Tue May 14, 2013 10:30 am, edited 1 time in total.

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nickb285
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Re: Tell the ABA how to fix our Profession

Postby nickb285 » Tue May 14, 2013 10:30 am



"My peers are interested in international business and only speak American."

Calling flame.

20141023
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Re: Tell the ABA how to fix our Profession

Postby 20141023 » Tue May 14, 2013 10:34 am

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Last edited by 20141023 on Fri Sep 27, 2013 4:17 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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JamesDean1955
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Re: Tell the ABA how to fix our Profession

Postby JamesDean1955 » Tue May 14, 2013 10:34 am

Where did you get this from North?

20141023
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Re: Tell the ABA how to fix our Profession

Postby 20141023 » Tue May 14, 2013 10:37 am

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Last edited by 20141023 on Fri Sep 27, 2013 4:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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North
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Re: Tell the ABA how to fix our Profession

Postby North » Tue May 14, 2013 10:42 am

JamesDean1955 wrote:Where did you get this from North?

From the comments submitted to the ABA's Task Force on the Future of Legal Education.

But seriously, if you haven't submitted something to the Task Force, then this person will have had more of a hand in whatever action the ABA takes than you.

Please. Please don't let that happen. Take an hour, FFS.

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ManOfTheMinute
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Re: Tell the ABA how to fix our Profession

Postby ManOfTheMinute » Tue May 14, 2013 10:52 am

North wrote:
JamesDean1955 wrote:Where did you get this from North?

From the comments submitted to the ABA's Task Force on the Future of Legal Education.

But seriously, if you haven't submitted something to the Task Force, then this person will have had more of a hand in whatever action the ABA takes than you.

Please. Please don't let that happen. Take an hour, FFS.


But then my name/comment will be visible online for everyone to see for eternity, and I'm way too shy for that

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North
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Re: Tell the ABA how to fix our Profession

Postby North » Tue May 14, 2013 10:56 am

ManOfTheMinute wrote:But then my name/comment will be visible online for everyone to see for eternity, and I'm way too shy for that

:|

Seriously?

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Renne Walker
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Re: Tell the ABA how to fix our Profession

Postby Renne Walker » Tue May 14, 2013 10:57 am

I was just over at the “choosing a law school” thread and as unbelievable as it is there are people trying to figure out what TTT school to pick between. Some are posters with a couple hundred posts, so it isn’t as they just wandered into to TLS a few days ago.

Some have LSATs below 160, some a bit higher. At that point I stopped reading figuring that there really is no hope —just come to grips with the fact that there will always be those that are unsaveable. Unfortunately, the TTT schools know this, thus their cash registers never stop ringing.




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