Tell the ABA how to fix our Profession Forum

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nickb285

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Re: Tell the ABA how to fix our Profession

Post by nickb285 » Tue May 14, 2013 5:38 pm

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eric922

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Re: Tell the ABA how to fix our Profession

Post by eric922 » Tue May 14, 2013 5:43 pm

The fact that she isn't too bright doesn't make Cooley any less of con artists for taking advantage of her.

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JamesDean1955

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Re: Tell the ABA how to fix our Profession

Post by JamesDean1955 » Tue May 14, 2013 6:02 pm

I mean, if you're talking about someone who has decided on Georgetown at sticker because his/her parents/friends/employer/other shitboomers have all stared at him/her wide eyed with admiration and told him/her to go because Georgetown is the absolute best law school ever (I've run into many older lawyers who equate Georgetown with Harvard and Yale), and this person decides on Georgetown, goes, graduates with $250k debt and a shitlaw job, and will never pay back their debt, that's different.

This is Cooley. Arguably one of the worst schools in the nation. And if I'm not mistaken (I didn't go back to check this) she worked in the legal industry prior to going to law school. She should have been able to make a more mature, informed and practical decision.

I still don't feel bad for her. Is Cooley to blame for something here/should they be shut down? Absolutely. But that doesn't detract from her responsibility to do her HW and not take everything at face value. In the Georgetown example, that person has a right to be upset, it would be very hard for one to believe that Georgetown isn't all it's cracked up to be, and I'd feel bad for them.

Edited to add stuff/etc.
Last edited by JamesDean1955 on Tue May 14, 2013 6:05 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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jrsbaseball5

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Re: Tell the ABA how to fix our Profession

Post by jrsbaseball5 » Tue May 14, 2013 6:02 pm

JamesDean1955 wrote:I don't feel bad for her at all, idk what happened ITT where everyone is now sympathizing. Caveat emptor. She's clearly not too bright. She would have screwed up her life some other way probably, or just settled for a mediocre lower middle class life with no debt but no significant savings and no risk taking.
Sure, she absolutely should have done her research and figured out that this probably was not going to be a good idea. This is the exact type of person that these schools are looking to have fill their seats and pay 40k+ in tuition. That is where the problem is. And even assuming she would have screwed up her life at some point I highly doubt she would have done so to the tune of 200k.

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Re: Tell the ABA how to fix our Profession

Post by timbs4339 » Tue May 14, 2013 6:09 pm

JamesDean1955 wrote:I mean, if you're talking about someone who has decided on Georgetown at sticker because his/her parents/friends/employer/other shitboomers have all stared at him/her wide eyed with admiration and told him/her to go because Georgetown is the absolute best law school ever (I've run into many older lawyers who equate Georgetown with Harvard and Yale), and this person decides on Georgetown, goes, graduates with $250k debt and a shitlaw job, and will never pay back their debt, that's different.

This is Cooley. Arguably one of the worst schools in the nation. And if I'm not mistaken (I didn't go back to check this) she worked in the legal industry prior to going to law school. She should have been able to make a more mature, informed and practical decision.

I still don't feel bad for her. Is Cooley to blame for something here/should they be shut down? Absolutely. But that doesn't detract from her responsibility to do her HW and not take everything at face value. In the Georgetown example, that person has a right to be upset, it would be very hard for one to believe that Georgetown isn't all it's cracked up to be, and I'd feel bad for them.

Edited to add stuff/etc.
I thought this kind of reasoning was dead when the entire economy went belly up in 2007 and we realized that we all don't live in little bubbles completely divorced from everyone else's stupid financial decisions egged on by greedy people.

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JamesDean1955

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Re: Tell the ABA how to fix our Profession

Post by JamesDean1955 » Tue May 14, 2013 6:12 pm

^ But for someone her age, I could see how she'd still think that. Not everyone spends as much time on TLS/the internet as we do, and I could totally see this happening and feel bad about it. Plus there would be a lot of external reinforcement telling her that it is a good decision as I mentioned. It's Georgetown after all, it's not all that long ago they were a fantastic law school option. Cooley has never been a fantastic law school option. Who the hell would tell someone else that Cooley is a great school? Other than lawyers way out in the middle of nowhere bummblefuck Michigan, anyways.

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Re: Tell the ABA how to fix our Profession

Post by A. Nony Mouse » Tue May 14, 2013 6:34 pm

Not that this really gets to the issue of what to tell the ABA, but someone who is as committed to the idea that life experience COUNTS and she has WISDOM that's not reflected by the bogus LSAT and GPA requirements of most law schools as this letter writer is would probably fall for Cooley's rhetoric about looking at the WHOLE PERSON.

(At least, I'm assuming Cooley uses that rhetoric, since they don't have anything else to justify why they're admitting people with such poor scores.)

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Re: Tell the ABA how to fix our Profession

Post by Renne Walker » Tue May 14, 2013 6:35 pm

I remember when I got the bright idea of taking something called the LSAT. Little later I received emails, brochures, etc. from some big name schools that were definitely cool. Then somehow or another I ran into the USNWR and TLS. That changed everything. Those schools were no longer cool. I saw schools on the top part of the list that I had never heard of and some I rarely ever thought of. Chicago, NYU, Penn (which had to mean Penn State) and then there were schools I knew a little about about only because of TV sports.

Point being; if I could finally figure it out, why can’t everyone else? It was clear that the economy was in the tank and there were gobs of “don’t go to law school and here’s why” articles floating around to give pause even to an offer from a school in something called the T-14.

I understand the appeal of attending a local school the natives love. But I do not (and probably never will) understand traveling out of state to somewhere you really have no desire to be at a school ranked in something called the tier-2 or 3, etc. Nevertheless they pack their bags and there they go. I mean seriously, some of this stuff just does not make any sense to me. What are these people thinking?

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Re: Tell the ABA how to fix our Profession

Post by timbs4339 » Tue May 14, 2013 7:09 pm

Renne Walker wrote:I remember when I got the bright idea of taking something called the LSAT. Little later I received emails, brochures, etc. from some big name schools that were definitely cool. Then somehow or another I ran into the USNWR and TLS. That changed everything. Those schools were no longer cool. I saw schools on the top part of the list that I had never heard of and some I rarely ever thought of. Chicago, NYU, Penn (which had to mean Penn State) and then there were schools I knew a little about about only because of TV sports.

Point being; if I could finally figure it out, why can’t everyone else? It was clear that the economy was in the tank and there were gobs of “don’t go to law school and here’s why” articles floating around to give pause even to an offer from a school in something called the T-14.

I understand the appeal of attending a local school the natives love. But I do not (and probably never will) understand traveling out of state to somewhere you really have no desire to be at a school ranked in something called the tier-2 or 3, etc. Nevertheless they pack their bags and there they go. I mean seriously, some of this stuff just does not make any sense to me. What are these people thinking?
How did you find TLS or USNWR?

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TheBiggerMediocre

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Re: Tell the ABA how to fix our Profession

Post by TheBiggerMediocre » Tue May 14, 2013 7:16 pm

So is the consensus for the average person this:
T10=Full
T20=Full-COL
T30=120k debt
T40=90k debt
T50=75k debt
T60=60k debt
T70=50k debt
T80=40k debt
T100=Free
Ranked=Stipend
unranked= dumb or extremely locality based

*good schools I would/should not be aware of exlcluded
Renne Walker wrote:I remember when I got the bright idea of taking something called the LSAT. Little later I received emails, brochures, etc. from some big name schools that were definitely cool. Then somehow or another I ran into the USNWR and TLS. That changed everything. Those schools were no longer cool. I saw schools on the top part of the list that I had never heard of and some I rarely ever thought of. Chicago, NYU, Penn (which had to mean Penn State) and then there were schools I knew a little about about only because of TV sports.

Point being; if I could finally figure it out, why can’t everyone else? It was clear that the economy was in the tank and there were gobs of “don’t go to law school and here’s why” articles floating around to give pause even to an offer from a school in something called the T-14.

I understand the appeal of attending a local school the natives love. But I do not (and probably never will) understand traveling out of state to somewhere you really have no desire to be at a school ranked in something called the tier-2 or 3, etc. Nevertheless they pack their bags and there they go. I mean seriously, some of this stuff just does not make any sense to me. What are these people thinking?
Last edited by TheBiggerMediocre on Tue May 14, 2013 7:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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ph5354a

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Re: Tell the ABA how to fix our Profession

Post by ph5354a » Tue May 14, 2013 7:16 pm

I wonder if some people aren't naturally inclined to consider rankings and quality of the program when they're making these decisions. When I first started looking at law schools, the first thing I did was to google "law school rankings" to see how my undergrad law school and others matched up (outed as prestige whore), though it wasn't until a little further in the process that I started really looking at employment stats. It's possible that some people, especially those who aren't more broadly familiar with graduate school/degrees, just think "hey, this school says ill get a scholarship if I get a 160 and they have the best employment stats of their peers. I should just go there!" It's really unfortunate.

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Re: Tell the ABA how to fix our Profession

Post by timbs4339 » Tue May 14, 2013 7:21 pm

ph5354a wrote:I wonder if some people aren't naturally inclined to consider rankings and quality of the program when they're making these decisions. When I first started looking at law schools, the first thing I did was to google "law school rankings" to see how my undergrad law school and others matched up (outed as prestige whore), though it wasn't until a little further in the process that I started really looking at employment stats. It's possible that some people, especially those who aren't more broadly familiar with graduate school/degrees, just think "hey, this school says ill get a scholarship if I get a 160 and they have the best employment stats of their peers. I should just go there!" It's really unfortunate.
A lot of the people who are targeted by Cooley, NYLS, JMLS, TJSL, NESL, etc etc just are not from backgrounds where "college rankings" exist at all. Thet would never think to pick up a ranking system, and nobody they know reads USNWR. The woman quoted seems to be a non-trad who went to UG before rankings became a big deal and for whom getting into any college is a huge deal.

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Re: Tell the ABA how to fix our Profession

Post by kay2016 » Tue May 14, 2013 8:14 pm

timbs4339 wrote:
ph5354a wrote:I wonder if some people aren't naturally inclined to consider rankings and quality of the program when they're making these decisions. When I first started looking at law schools, the first thing I did was to google "law school rankings" to see how my undergrad law school and others matched up (outed as prestige whore), though it wasn't until a little further in the process that I started really looking at employment stats. It's possible that some people, especially those who aren't more broadly familiar with graduate school/degrees, just think "hey, this school says ill get a scholarship if I get a 160 and they have the best employment stats of their peers. I should just go there!" It's really unfortunate.
A lot of the people who are targeted by Cooley, NYLS, JMLS, TJSL, NESL, etc etc just are not from backgrounds where "college rankings" exist at all. Thet would never think to pick up a ranking system, and nobody they know reads USNWR. The woman quoted seems to be a non-trad who went to UG before rankings became a big deal and for whom getting into any college is a huge deal.
I am not a non trad, but I go to an unranked public school currently and never thought about rankings for undergrad, I thought about free.

I still googled something like "best law schools" and found USnews before I even decided for sure to take the LSAT.

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Re: Tell the ABA how to fix our Profession

Post by timbs4339 » Tue May 14, 2013 9:16 pm

kayleighcheyenne wrote:
timbs4339 wrote:
ph5354a wrote:I wonder if some people aren't naturally inclined to consider rankings and quality of the program when they're making these decisions. When I first started looking at law schools, the first thing I did was to google "law school rankings" to see how my undergrad law school and others matched up (outed as prestige whore), though it wasn't until a little further in the process that I started really looking at employment stats. It's possible that some people, especially those who aren't more broadly familiar with graduate school/degrees, just think "hey, this school says ill get a scholarship if I get a 160 and they have the best employment stats of their peers. I should just go there!" It's really unfortunate.
A lot of the people who are targeted by Cooley, NYLS, JMLS, TJSL, NESL, etc etc just are not from backgrounds where "college rankings" exist at all. Thet would never think to pick up a ranking system, and nobody they know reads USNWR. The woman quoted seems to be a non-trad who went to UG before rankings became a big deal and for whom getting into any college is a huge deal.
I am not a non trad, but I go to an unranked public school currently and never thought about rankings for undergrad, I thought about free.

I still googled something like "best law schools" and found USnews before I even decided for sure to take the LSAT.
That doesn't really help you figure out whether these schools are good choices if you assume every law school is already a good choice. There are people who do not know any lawyers, law students, or recent grads who can clue them in. They don't read the NYT, WSJ, or Slate/Salon/Atlantic websites where a lot of the anti-law school publicity is strong.

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Re: Tell the ABA how to fix our Profession

Post by ManOfTheMinute » Tue May 14, 2013 9:25 pm

Why does TLS/north right up a nice letter and we can all sign it or send it ourselves? I feeling lazy

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Renne Walker

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Re: Tell the ABA how to fix our Profession

Post by Renne Walker » Tue May 14, 2013 9:57 pm

timbs4339 wrote:How did you find TLS or USNWR?
I think I was using the Princeton Review for school data, rankings, etc. Somehow it or Google led me here.

I just (as in now) searched #1 law school and (wait for it) on top of the list was Widener followed by Concord law schools. Soooo… I see how the bait is set! But then it gave me THIS. With this I think someone could figure it out (theoretically anyway).

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JamesDean1955

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Re: Tell the ABA how to fix our Profession

Post by JamesDean1955 » Tue May 14, 2013 10:17 pm

Renne Walker wrote:
timbs4339 wrote:How did you find TLS or USNWR?
I think I was using the Princeton Review for school data, rankings, etc. Somehow it or Google led me here.

I just (as in now) searched #1 law school and (wait for it) on top of the list was Widener followed by Concord law schools. Soooo… I see how the bait is set! But then it gave me THIS. With this I think someone could figure it out (theoretically anyway).
Oh snap another ranking system showing Penn as a T6. I am gonna need more space for all these bookmarks.

CCP baby :P .

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Re: Tell the ABA how to fix our Profession

Post by laotze » Tue May 14, 2013 11:04 pm

JamesDean1955 wrote:
Renne Walker wrote:
timbs4339 wrote:How did you find TLS or USNWR?
I think I was using the Princeton Review for school data, rankings, etc. Somehow it or Google led me here.

I just (as in now) searched #1 law school and (wait for it) on top of the list was Widener followed by Concord law schools. Soooo… I see how the bait is set! But then it gave me THIS. With this I think someone could figure it out (theoretically anyway).
Oh snap another ranking system showing Penn as a T6. I am gonna need more space for all these bookmarks.

CCP baby :P .

(Waits for the hordes to descend upon him...)

I love how the quote for Cornell is "Fordham, Penn, and Northwestern have been our best law recruits."

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Re: Tell the ABA how to fix our Profession

Post by 20141023 » Thu May 16, 2013 8:16 am

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North

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Re: Tell the ABA how to fix our Profession

Post by North » Thu May 16, 2013 8:42 am

It's beautiful.

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JamesDean1955

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Re: Tell the ABA how to fix our Profession

Post by JamesDean1955 » Thu May 16, 2013 9:56 am

Nice job Regulus :)

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Re: Tell the ABA how to fix our Profession

Post by nickb285 » Thu May 16, 2013 10:36 am

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JamesDean1955

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Re: Tell the ABA how to fix our Profession

Post by JamesDean1955 » Thu May 16, 2013 11:02 am

nickb285 wrote:
North wrote:It's beautiful.
Should have sent...a poet...
Are haikus credited? If so, I will send them a letter consisting solely of haikus.

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Re: Tell the ABA how to fix our Profession

Post by nickb285 » Thu May 16, 2013 11:22 am

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Re: Tell the ABA how to fix our Profession

Post by timbs4339 » Thu May 16, 2013 11:40 am

Nice analogy, but with a minimum LSAT score you're going to run up on the URM issue. I also don't see why you can't both lower the toll and turn drivers away at the same time.

Seriously? What are you waiting for?

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