ATL's Law School Rankings

(Applications Advice, Letters of Recommendation . . . )
User avatar
Lavitz
Posts: 3098
Joined: Mon May 31, 2010 1:39 am

Re: ATL's Law School Rankings

Postby Lavitz » Wed May 01, 2013 2:20 pm

I just noticed that when you click the school's name, you see how the students and alumni rated it.

Guess I'd better get ready for Cornell's B- social life. :?

masked kavana
Posts: 423
Joined: Mon Oct 24, 2011 11:24 pm

Re: ATL's Law School Rankings

Postby masked kavana » Wed May 01, 2013 2:24 pm

Lavitz wrote:I just noticed that when you click the school's name, you see how the students and alumni rated it.

Guess I'd better get ready for Cornell's B- social life. :?



That's what video games are for ;)

User avatar
DorianGray89
Posts: 346
Joined: Thu Jun 24, 2010 11:19 am

Re: ATL's Law School Rankings

Postby DorianGray89 » Wed May 01, 2013 2:25 pm

Sure, there is stuff wrong with these rankings, but there is with all of them. People give different weights to different things. Here ATL is telling you based on these things, this is how these schools stack up against each other. If you want to give different weight to different things, do it on your own, they are going by what people told them was more important.

Anyways, I'm happy to see Duke getting the acknowledgement it deserves.

User avatar
Lavitz
Posts: 3098
Joined: Mon May 31, 2010 1:39 am

Re: ATL's Law School Rankings

Postby Lavitz » Wed May 01, 2013 2:28 pm

masked kavana wrote:That's what video games are for ;)

Let's not derail yet another thread into a video game discussion. :wink:

But yeah, I'm not taking it too seriously.

User avatar
sabanist
Posts: 573
Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2012 12:48 pm

Re: ATL's Law School Rankings

Postby sabanist » Wed May 01, 2013 2:43 pm

.
Last edited by sabanist on Mon Jan 20, 2014 7:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

rad lulz
Posts: 9844
Joined: Sun Feb 19, 2012 10:53 pm

Re: ATL's Law School Rankings

Postby rad lulz » Wed May 01, 2013 3:03 pm

romothesavior wrote:3) I'm a little confused by the "Cost" methodology. Are they just using tuition as the metric for cost? Because some schools are incredibly stingy and others very generous. I couldn't really understand what they meant when they explained their methodology here.

They use cost, and it makes sense until schools start releasing "average tuition paid" numbers

They like to keep that lil cross subsidization thing on the DL

dixiecupdrinking
Posts: 3142
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2008 2:39 pm

Re: ATL Top 50 Law School Rankings 2013

Postby dixiecupdrinking » Wed May 01, 2013 3:04 pm

laxbrah420 wrote:"we don't use inputs. we consider school costs"...

If you think about it as "student indebtedness" then it's more clearly an outcome and not an "input."

These are not half bad, grain of salt as usual but no less instructive than any other ranking system I've seen. (Edit: actually, they are half bad—also relying on their own alumni scores? Who knows who is providing that info. And the SCOTUS + judge thing is pretty stupid. But contrast to USNWR which is like 75% bad, and half bad is not that bad.)

User avatar
sinfiery
Posts: 3308
Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2011 2:55 am

Re: ATL's Law School Rankings

Postby sinfiery » Wed May 01, 2013 3:06 pm

They could probably incorporate a conservative across the board estimation using the data on LSACs website with % of students receiving grant aid, amount of said median aid, % receiving more than half, full tuition, etc. But that's a lot of work..

User avatar
MikeSpivey
Posts: 2608
Joined: Sun May 03, 2009 4:28 pm

Re: ATL Top 50 Law School Rankings 2013

Postby MikeSpivey » Wed May 01, 2013 3:06 pm

Here is some real quick analysis. Trust me, I am trying to add grids.

ATL v. USNWR @http://spiveyconsulting.com/blog/238/

This was done on the fly, please PM me with errors.

User avatar
Lavitz
Posts: 3098
Joined: Mon May 31, 2010 1:39 am

Re: ATL's Law School Rankings

Postby Lavitz » Wed May 01, 2013 3:10 pm

sabanist wrote:This made me check out Harvard's, and...

Notable alumni include: Barack Obama, Michelle Obama, Mitt Romney, John Roberts, Anthony Kennedy, Stephen Breyer, Antonin Scalia, Elena Kagan, Lloyd Blankfein, Rutherford B. Hayes, and most importantly Elie Mystal

:lol:

I knew there had to be a catch. :lol:

Currently reading the student and alumni reviews of the schools. I also noticed you can still click "rate your school" and fill out the survey.

User avatar
JamesDean1955
Posts: 744
Joined: Sun Jul 29, 2012 4:06 pm

Re: ATL's Law School Rankings

Postby JamesDean1955 » Wed May 01, 2013 3:17 pm

TaipeiMort wrote:Problem with these rankings is that they don't correct for self-selection of those with prior work experience into particular schools. That is why Penn and NU occasionally outperform peers.


Why is Penn being included into your assessment? Just curious, bc I didn't think that relative to V/M/D/C (well, every T14 other than NU basically) they had substantially more people with significant WE (3+ years and/or sought after WE like investment banking). Quality of work experience matters too. From speaking with both Penn and NU students I got the impression NU students had more/better quality WE on average than Penn students.

If there's a compilation anywhere of which schools have what percentage of people with 3+ years of experience, I'd like to see that.

If you're right, guess my WE won't stand out as much as I thought :?

User avatar
untar614
Posts: 646
Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2013 1:01 pm

Re: ATL's Law School Rankings

Postby untar614 » Wed May 01, 2013 3:19 pm

Lavitz wrote:
sabanist wrote:This made me check out Harvard's, and...

Notable alumni include: Barack Obama, Michelle Obama, Mitt Romney, John Roberts, Anthony Kennedy, Stephen Breyer, Antonin Scalia, Elena Kagan, Lloyd Blankfein, Rutherford B. Hayes, and most importantly Elie Mystal

:lol:

I knew there had to be a catch. :lol:

Currently reading the student and alumni reviews of the schools. I also noticed you can still click "rate your school" and fill out the survey.

Time to start screwing with every school above yours? You can even pretend to be an attorney!

User avatar
banjo
Posts: 1345
Joined: Wed Nov 30, 2011 8:00 pm

Re: ATL Top 50 Law School Rankings 2013

Postby banjo » Wed May 01, 2013 3:19 pm

People who just want a rough idea of where law schools stand (laypeople) will still go to USNWR. Law school applicants will continue to go to LST.

User avatar
Borhas
Posts: 4855
Joined: Sun Sep 27, 2009 6:09 pm

Re: ATL Top 50 Law School Rankings 2013

Postby Borhas » Wed May 01, 2013 3:21 pm

Bronck wrote:Lol, SCOTUS clerkships as a percent of the ranking


other than that it's pretty reasonable

User avatar
untar614
Posts: 646
Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2013 1:01 pm

Re: ATL Top 50 Law School Rankings 2013

Postby untar614 » Wed May 01, 2013 3:22 pm

Borhas wrote:
Bronck wrote:Lol, SCOTUS clerkships as a percent of the ranking


other than that it's pretty reasonable

nah, including cost in the rankings makes no sense. these are things that should be evaluated separately.

User avatar
JXander
Posts: 960
Joined: Tue Oct 16, 2012 10:23 am

Re: ATL's Law School Rankings

Postby JXander » Wed May 01, 2013 3:32 pm

Stolen from the thread that apparently missed mine :wink::

MikeSpivey wrote:Here is some real quick analysis. Trust me, I am trying to add grids.

ATL v. USNWR @http://spiveyconsulting.com/blog/238/

This was done on the fly, please PM me with errors.

User avatar
romothesavior
Posts: 14772
Joined: Fri Jun 26, 2009 4:29 pm

Re: ATL's Law School Rankings

Postby romothesavior » Wed May 01, 2013 3:47 pm

rad lulz wrote:
romothesavior wrote:3) I'm a little confused by the "Cost" methodology. Are they just using tuition as the metric for cost? Because some schools are incredibly stingy and others very generous. I couldn't really understand what they meant when they explained their methodology here.

They use cost, and it makes sense until schools start releasing "average tuition paid" numbers

They like to keep that lil cross subsidization thing on the DL

But what is "cost"?

Cost = Tuition + cost of attendance?

That's all well and good, but you really need to factor in scholarships to make it a meaningful metric.

User avatar
romothesavior
Posts: 14772
Joined: Fri Jun 26, 2009 4:29 pm

Re: ATL's Law School Rankings

Postby romothesavior » Wed May 01, 2013 3:56 pm

Threads merged.

rad lulz
Posts: 9844
Joined: Sun Feb 19, 2012 10:53 pm

Re: ATL's Law School Rankings

Postby rad lulz » Wed May 01, 2013 4:00 pm

romothesavior wrote:
rad lulz wrote:
romothesavior wrote:3) I'm a little confused by the "Cost" methodology. Are they just using tuition as the metric for cost? Because some schools are incredibly stingy and others very generous. I couldn't really understand what they meant when they explained their methodology here.

They use cost, and it makes sense until schools start releasing "average tuition paid" numbers

They like to keep that lil cross subsidization thing on the DL

But what is "cost"?

Cost = Tuition + cost of attendance?

That's all well and good, but you really need to factor in scholarships to make it a meaningful metric.

I guess they could use this:


sinfiery wrote:They could probably incorporate a conservative across the board estimation using the data on LSACs website with % of students receiving grant aid, amount of said median aid, % receiving more than half, full tuition, etc. But that's a lot of work..


It would be better

User avatar
beepboopbeep
Posts: 1230
Joined: Thu Oct 18, 2012 7:36 pm

Re: ATL's Law School Rankings

Postby beepboopbeep » Wed May 01, 2013 4:04 pm

romothesavior wrote:That's all well and good, but you really need to factor in scholarships to make it a meaningful metric.


I think ATL is aware of that, but there's just no way to get that information right now.

Is it worth including, given that everyone making an actual decision will be looking at different numbers? Probably not. But I appreciate what they're trying to do.

User avatar
LSATSCORES2012
Posts: 770
Joined: Mon Jul 02, 2012 2:12 pm

Re: ATL's Law School Rankings

Postby LSATSCORES2012 » Wed May 01, 2013 4:13 pm

sinfiery wrote:They could probably incorporate a conservative across the board estimation using the data on LSACs website with % of students receiving grant aid, amount of said median aid, % receiving more than half, full tuition, etc. But that's a lot of work..
beepboopbeep wrote:
romothesavior wrote:That's all well and good, but you really need to factor in scholarships to make it a meaningful metric.


I think ATL is aware of that, but there's just no way to get that information right now.

Is it worth including, given that everyone making an actual decision will be looking at different numbers? Probably not. But I appreciate what they're trying to do.
DorianGray89 wrote:Sure, there is stuff wrong with these rankings, but there is with all of them. People give different weights to different things. Here ATL is telling you based on these things, this is how these schools stack up against each other. If you want to give different weight to different things, do it on your own, they are going by what people told them was more important.

Anyways, I'm happy to see Duke getting the acknowledgement it deserves.

Shameless plug: --LinkRemoved-- - incorporates all this stuff :D


(but I do like the ATL rankings... more than USNews, and even more than LST. I think custom rankings are just confusing, and that LST provides so much information it can be hard to understand)

User avatar
06102016
Posts: 13466
Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2011 1:29 pm

Re: ATL's Law School Rankings

Postby 06102016 » Wed May 01, 2013 4:14 pm

..

SportsFan
Posts: 722
Joined: Thu Oct 11, 2012 5:26 pm

Re: ATL's Law School Rankings

Postby SportsFan » Wed May 01, 2013 5:09 pm

JamesDean1955 wrote:
TaipeiMort wrote:Problem with these rankings is that they don't correct for self-selection of those with prior work experience into particular schools. That is why Penn and NU occasionally outperform peers.


Why is Penn being included into your assessment? Just curious, bc I didn't think that relative to V/M/D/C (well, every T14 other than NU basically) they had substantially more people with significant WE (3+ years and/or sought after WE like investment banking). Quality of work experience matters too. From speaking with both Penn and NU students I got the impression NU students had more/better quality WE on average than Penn students.

If there's a compilation anywhere of which schools have what percentage of people with 3+ years of experience, I'd like to see that.

If you're right, guess my WE won't stand out as much as I thought :?

This is pretty off topic, but tbh I have no idea what he's talking about. I think ~35% of the 1L class at Penn is K-JD, there there's another 10-15% who took a year or 2 off but didn't do anything really substantial (worked retail, taught the LSAT, travelled, etc.), which accounts for like half the class. Then the other half of the class is a big mix between people who did Teach for America, worked as paralegals, did financial work, etc. So really, IMO you end up with 40-50% of the class not really have much pre-law school WE (outside of summer internships or whatever), then ~25% of the class with the really desirable WE you describe (3+ years, investment banking, etc.), and the rest with good but not great WE. At least, this is what my impression has been.

User avatar
laxbrah420
Posts: 2748
Joined: Fri Aug 12, 2011 1:53 am

Re: ATL's Law School Rankings

Postby laxbrah420 » Wed May 01, 2013 5:16 pm

Do these rankings competitors that always bash the library inclusion in USNWR not understand that looking library size/collection is just a proxy for determining overall quality --and not a direct support that having more books is better?

And likewise, higher cost probably signals being better, not worse.

User avatar
JamesDean1955
Posts: 744
Joined: Sun Jul 29, 2012 4:06 pm

Re: ATL's Law School Rankings

Postby JamesDean1955 » Wed May 01, 2013 5:27 pm

@ SportsFan: Thanks, yeah that's what I picked up from speaking with people at ASW. Spoke to a couple people with awesome work experience doing the JD/MBA and my first thought was why they even bothered getting the JD degree when they would have Wharton on their resume (lucky people :mrgreen: ). But people like that seemed to be the minority by far.

Anyways I don't think this was that off topic as the conversation was about ranking inflation due to students with work experience. I feel like a comprehensive study should be done on this (using public information posted by schools and surveying current students).




Return to “Law School Admissions Forum”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot], ds14 and 9 guests