ATL's Law School Rankings Forum

[JamesDean1955]

USNWR’s reports are essentially the same every year because they always use the same methodology. It’s no surprise that competing polls, using different methodology, produce [somewhat] different results.

What is it about the ATL methodology that caused all the NYC based schools targeting BL to take hits? Columbia 4 to #8, NYU 6 to #10, Fordham 38 to #48 while other schools, Chicago, Penn, Duke, etc., targeting NYC BL either stayed the same or went up.
What’s up with that?

Cost of degree is 15%. NYC schools have the highest CoA on top of the tuition which is similar between all schools.

BTW since when did TLS start saying t13?

GeorgeTTTown bashing is a time honored TLS tradition.

[toothbrush]

USNWR’s reports are essentially the same every year because they always use the same methodology. It’s no surprise that competing polls, using different methodology, produce [somewhat] different results.

What is it about the ATL methodology that caused all the NYC based schools targeting BL to take hits? Columbia 4 to #8, NYU 6 to #10, Fordham 38 to #48 while other schools, Chicago, Penn, Duke, etc., targeting NYC BL either stayed the same or went up.
What’s up with that?

Cost of degree is 15%. NYC schools have the highest CoA on top of the tuition which is similar between all schools.

BTW since when did TLS start saying t13?

GeorgeTTTown bashing is a time honored TLS tradition.

Yap but wasn't Georgetown ranked 13th for a stint ?

[Renne Walker]

USNWR’s reports are essentially the same every year because they always use the same methodology. It’s no surprise that competing polls, using different methodology, produce [somewhat] different results.

What is it about the ATL methodology that caused all the NYC based schools targeting BL to take hits? Columbia 4 to #8, NYU 6 to #10, Fordham 38 to #48 while other schools, Chicago, Penn, Duke, etc., targeting NYC BL either stayed the same or went up.
What’s up with that?

Cost of degree is 15%. NYC schools have the highest CoA on top of the tuition which is similar between all schools.

BTW since when did TLS start saying t13?

The COA between NYU/Columbia compared to Penn/Chicago are nearly identical. So "no," COA was not a factor in this example.

As far as T-14, T-13, T6, no idea.

[toothbrush]

The COA between NYU/Columbia compared to Penn/Chicago are nearly identical. Thus, COA was not a factor in this example.

Depends on what you consider nearly identical. Penn v Columbia is a 21k difference according to LST. I suck at numbers so I don't know how much that difference weighs into the ATL ranking. I do believe that most COA is similar outside of NYC schools though so, all else equal, that would explain how CLS / NYU fall through the ranking so hard.

[romothesavior]

BTW since when did TLS start saying t13?

People have been saying T13 for some time. T14 is still far more common, but there is a group of people on TLS for a couple of years who have argued that it really should be T13. And honestly, there is some truth behind the notion that Georgetown is closer to UT/Vandy than it is to the rest of the T14 (just by looking at the jobs data). Even in ATL's ranking, the biggest drop in the entire ranking is from 13 to 14 (almost 8 points) and then Georgetown is another 5 points behind UT/Vandy. ATL's rankings have got some flaws and they're not some uber-scientific method, but this just adds more fuel to that fire.

[romothesavior]

The COA between NYU/Columbia compared to Penn/Chicago are nearly identical. Thus, COA was not a factor in this example.

Depends on what you consider nearly identical. Penn v Columbia is a 21k difference according to LST. I suck at numbers so I don't know how much that difference weighs into the ATL ranking. I do believe that most COA is similar outside of NYC schools though so, all else equal, that would explain how CLS / NYU fall through the ranking so hard.

Could have something to do with this:

For those schools placing a majority of their graduates into the local job market, we’ve adjusted the score for the cost of living in that market.

And as to Renne, the COA of Penn/Chicago/Duke/UVA/etc. are (according to LST) 20-30k cheaper than at Columbia/NYU, so no, they're not identical.

[06102016]

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[Renne Walker]

And as to Renne, the COA of Penn/Chicago/Duke/UVA/etc. are (according to LST) 20-30k cheaper than at Columbia/NYU, so no, they're not identical.

I was using the COA noted on the TLS Law School pullouts.

As far as COL, NYC is outrageous... counterpoint is that Chicago and Philly cannot be all that different.

[NoodleyOne]

And as to Renne, the COA of Penn/Chicago/Duke/UVA/etc. are (according to LST) 20-30k cheaper than at Columbia/NYU, so no, they're not identical.

I was using the COA noted on the TLS Law School pullouts.

As far as COL, NYC is outrageous... counterpoint is that Chicago and Philly cannot be all that different.

Facts say otherwise.

[JamesDean1955]

^ Just wanted to jump in here and point out that I have lived in NYC and will be going to Philly (already been there several times). What I have noticed:

- Food prices in Philly are way cheaper.

- Also, there's no way I could get a decent 1 BR in NYC for $700-$750 a month, whereas in Philly there seems to be plenty of options for this (at least in UC/West Philly).

- The two things above (rent, food) are the biggest expenditures for law students, AFAIK.

[Renne Walker]

^ Just wanted to jump in here and point out that I have lived in NYC and will be going to Philly (already been there several times). What I have noticed:

- Food prices in Philly are way cheaper.

- Also, there's no way I could get a decent 1 BR in NYC for $700-$750 a month, whereas in Philly there seems to be plenty of options for this (at least in UC/West Philly).

- The two things above (rent, food) are the biggest expenditures for law students, AFAIK.

If that is the case, and it probably is, if USNWR ever places a high emphasis on COL (as ATL apparently does), I doubt if any NYC school will ever make the T6 again.

Ranking wise, I suppose it is a balancing act of weighing the favorable odds of securing BL $ versus the higher [COL] cost of accomplishing that goal. And no, not everyone every time hits the sweet spot.

[Bronck]

Ranking wise, I suppose it is a balancing act of weighing the favorable odds of securing BL $ versus the higher [COL] cost of accomplishing that goal. And no, not everyone every time hits the sweet spot.

Wow, you don't say? You should weigh employment opportunities and cost to come to the best school choice?? That's really novel stuff.

[Renne Walker]

Ranking wise, I suppose it is a balancing act of weighing the favorable odds of securing BL $ versus the higher [COL] cost of accomplishing that goal. And no, not everyone every time hits the sweet spot.

Wow, you don't say? You should weigh employment opportunities and cost to come to the best school choice?? That's really novel stuff.

Hello. I wasn’t speaking for myself but rather the balancing act for either ATL or USNWR. Feel free to drop by anytime, we don’t mind spelling things out for our CLS neighbors.

[JamesDean1955]

Ohhh snap! NYU vs. CLS internet brawl!

[PDaddy]

People are way over-thinking this. Atl's methodology is meant to do one thing, tell applicants which schools are most likely to get them a legitimate law job (especially biglaw) upon graduation.

In many ways, it's addition by subtraction. It eliminates worthless metrics found in other ranking systems; yet its results are mot that different from those of USNWR. I would be far more likely to rely on ATL's ranking than that of USNWR, especially since it gives a bump to many of the so-called T2 schools people have argued for years are really tier-1 caliber. They prove their mettle by pulling the employers, and that's really what counts.

The supposedly "missing" Utahs, Arizonas, Hastingses, Colorados, etc. are probably in the #51-60 range, but who cares? Why are people so stuck on this notion that USNWR has to be right? It has more flaws in it than any system except Brenner's.

ATL reasonably mirrors USNWR because of "stabilization": over time the USNWR rankings created a self-fulfilling prophesy that ultimately caused employers to recruit according to the rankings. The end result is that employment results have pretty much mirrored reputational rankings.

Aberrant schools like New Mexico can be explained by geography. They tend to be the only game, the best game, or one of the best games in their markets, so of course their employment stats belie their rankings. Miami? Houston? New Mexico? It's easy to see how they would crack the ATL top-50 in a purely employment-based ranking driven by the economy. It's also very easy to see how a school like Hastings would suffer: it's located in over-saturated market.

But most reputable law schools have suffered over the last decade -and-a-half as a result of USNWR's questionable methodology. The two rankings would have looked very different in the 1990's. Back then, schools like Temple, Brooklyn, Loyola, Howard, Suffolk, Chicago-Kent, and maybe even Seattle U and Oregon would have been included in ATL's top-50. It's an economy-driven ranking.

Additionally, USNWR is not transparent and includes false data. Which judges are weighing in on reputation rankings? Morse won't release that info. I know many prominent municipal, superior court and federal judges, but I have yet to meet one who has ever received a survey or knows another judge who has received one.

ATL is spot-on! What matters most is that you attend a school that doesn't lie to you...one at which you can find enjoyment, fulfillment and a job that allows you to pay off any debt you incur. I think ATL's ranking is reliable.

[dixiecupdrinking]

I still think the cost of living thing is bullshit. That, combined with David Lat's prestige-whoring inclusion of SCOTUS clerks and federal judges, mean these rankings add no value to and actually detract from other metrics we already have. If they just published a list of Law School Transparency statistics it would be more useful.

[Mal Reynolds]

Wow a real battle of the titans ITT. Pdaddy and Rene are two if TLS' best posters. Thank you for your contributions.

[Sheffield]

If cost of living is a major consideration in the rankings it could partially explain Duke’s ATL jump. This dynamic will likely benefit most southern law schools.

[skers]

^ Just wanted to jump in here and point out that I have lived in NYC and will be going to Philly (already been there several times). What I have noticed:

- Food prices in Philly are way cheaper.

- Also, there's no way I could get a decent 1 BR in NYC for $700-$750 a month, whereas in Philly there seems to be plenty of options for this (at least in UC/West Philly).

- The two things above (rent, food) are the biggest expenditures for law students, AFAIK.

If that is the case, and it probably is, if USNWR ever places a high emphasis on COL (as ATL apparently does), I doubt if any NYC school will ever make the T6 again.

Ranking wise, I suppose it is a balancing act of weighing the favorable odds of securing BL $ versus the higher [COL] cost of accomplishing that goal. And no, not everyone every time hits the sweet spot.

It's not really a balancing act when Penn has a cheaper COA and is at the top of the ladder in BL placement. It's more about NYC v. Philly than anything else.

[Blessedassurance]

the problem with the cost of living is that it should be a a separate ranking based purely on that metric if they are so inclined. Ignoring the individualized nature of COA, after a certain threshold, you are going to need a favorable employment outcome. It makes no difference to the unemployed or under-employed graduate if he owes 180,000 versus 200,000.

At least the good news is that they discard the nonsensical metrics USNWR employs.

[06102016]

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[20141023]

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[Yukos]

There's no way using COA instead of just tuition unfairly disadvantages schools in high cost of living areas.

First, schools have an easy way to remedy this: lower tuition.

Second, if, hypothetically, UChi and NYU have the exact same biglaw placement rate, Chicago is an objectively better bet. Obviously for some people regional placement might override this consideration but you can't argue against the fact that same results + less cost = better.

Third, while high COL hurts schools in some ways (cost-conscious students might stay away), you can't argue that NYU and Columbia don't benefit from being in New York. High COL implies that that area is desirable, and you gotta take the good (students will be happy to live there for three years) with the bad (that COL will increase your COA).

[Kronk]

Shouldn't someone considering top law schools be able to independently evaluate whether or not the COL of an area and the COA of a school is worthwhile to them, given how good the school is at getting them employed? That is an individual analysis for every student, unlike employment statistics, which don't differ student to student.

This isn't that hard to understand. Including COA in a ranking is TTT methodology.

[bk1]

Shouldn't someone considering top law schools be able to independently evaluate whether or not the COL of an area and the COA of a school is worthwhile to them, given how good the school is at getting them employed?

People accepted to top schools are only marginally less retarded than people accepted to other schools so I'm gonna go with "often, no."

Including COA in a ranking is TTT methodology.

But I do agree with this.