ATL's Law School Rankings Forum

[run26.2]

2. Your post is problematic with respect to Stanford and Harvard. You make your argument about Yale and then apply it to S and H as well. Again, this is reflective of the traditional perspective. While I'm willing to grant that self-selection might cause Yale's rank to unjustifiably decline, I'm less convinced that it would affect that of S and H. I don't have data to back this up, so someone is welcome to correct me on this. In any case, without similar data as to S and H, your argument only applies to Y. I think it would be more helpful to rerank the schools without the two inputs mentioned above and see how things come out.

why are you willing to believe his account of yale but not h or s? because the traditional perspective you passionately criticize says yale is a special place?

It was a combination of a few personal stories and those shared from friends or relatives, i.e. it was not historical information. I did not hear the same things from people from I know who went to H or S. It was a small sample size from each school, though.

[SportsFan]

Because H bombed in NLJ placement in the recession and Y just stayed in their don't give a fuck about biglaw range probably.

H is hurt by its huge class (relative to Y and S) IMO. For whatever reason, it seems like the recession hit the schools with larger classes worse than the schools with smaller classes.

[Yukos]

Ok Yukos... my bad. (I used Berkeley's '12 USNWR #7 rank instead of their new lower '13 rank of #9). The world is now at peace with the top 10 law schools... glad to know that we've strengthened a nation.

1. Yale
2.5. Harvard – Stanford
4.5 Chicago
6. Penn — Columbia
7. UVA
8. NYU
8.5 Duke
9. Berkeley

I hope you're some kind of Bearsgrl super troll. You realize the average of 2 and 2 (Stanford's two ranks) is 2, right? The average of 4 and 4 (Chicago's two ranks) is 4.

[Elston Gunn]

a higher percentage of Yalies were at the V10 last year than UT students went to biglaw at all.* V10 is the fallback. Yale's placement power blows the non-HYS schools' out of the water--you just can't see it in the widely available data.

The problem is you're citing the widely available data as your evidence. I mean Columbia also placed a higher percentage of 2013 summers into V10 than UT placed BigLaw at all, but I can't then conclude that V10 is the fallback at CLS.

I don't understand your first sentence.
You're right--the info in my post wasn't enough. Admittedly, some of the way I know the V10 is the fallback is anecdotal, but the main way I know is that with few exceptions (~20 people), those that didn't go to V10s went to firms that are traditionally more selective, or at least no less selective than the V10. And even the exceptions are at places like Debevoise and Paul Weiss.

[Elston Gunn]

I was not arguing that YSH are not the best law schools. I was arguing that these rankings contain what seems to be two arbitrary inputs that seem to produce a result that aligns with the traditional perspective that these are the top 3 schools. Who knows why ATL has chosen to do so? Possibly to lend some legitimacy to their rankings.

I have two points in response to your post.
1. Your statements make my argument. You are defending against the position that an analysis without these two factors (SCOTUS clerks and federal judges) would lead to an unjustifiably lower ranking for Yale. You support this position on the grounds that Yale's placement power does not show up in the rankings. I have no problem agreeing that Yale is a special place, and is unique (and likely "more prestigious"/better/more varied) in having employment outcomes that are difficult to quantify with objective measures. But to argue that this means they should be at the top of an objective rankings system that is meaningful for most schools or most prospective law students is reflective of that conservatism. I think people understand that Yale has an amazing law school, regardless of what the rankings say.

2. Your post is problematic with respect to Stanford and Harvard. You make your argument about Yale and then apply it to S and H as well. Again, this is reflective of the traditional perspective. While I'm willing to grant that self-selection might cause Yale's rank to unjustifiably decline, I'm less convinced that it would affect that of S and H. I don't have data to back this up, so someone is welcome to correct me on this. In any case, without similar data as to S and H, your argument only applies to Y. I think it would be more helpful to rerank the schools without the two inputs mentioned above and see how things come out.

Well, you'd have to ask Harvard and Stanford students WRT #2, but I've heard enough anecdotes to think Stanford at least is in the same ballpark. Maybe H just has too many people to do similarly, but you'd have to ask someone who actually knows.

I don't really care about the ranking though. I just thought you were suggesting that its conservatism that has everyone think HYS are the best. I think if we had better data, it would be clear that that's not the reason.

[Skye]

I hope you're some kind of Bearsgrl super troll. You realize the average of 2 and 2 (Stanford's two ranks) is 2, right? The average of 4 and 4 (Chicago's two ranks) is 4.

It’s possible you have a point there.

(Note to self: end scribbling illegible notes ona napkin and then using the napkin as the database.... )

[Blessedassurance]

Because H bombed in NLJ placement in the recession and Y just stayed in their don't give a fuck about biglaw range probably.

do you understand the problems with using the NLJ? you realize how many shit firms populate the nlj?

[Blessedassurance]

It was a combination of a few personal stories and those shared from friends or relatives, i.e. it was not historical information. I did not hear the same things from people from I know who went to H or S. It was a small sample size from each school, though.

i don't even know where to start...

there are people who strike out everywhere...stanford has a cult mentality and obsession with portraying to the outside world that it's paradise, hell, they shout down people who dare offer any criticism whatsoever. nobody has time for that at h.

there aren't any discernible differences between hys. they all have their strengths and weaknesses relative to each other. the so-called differences are only magnified by people on tls who don't go to any of them and the "omg, CLERKSHIPS and academia" nonsense, as if that is relevant to someone interested in transactional, business or international practice. y and s benefit from their sizes, but so too does h. there are also people at each of those with different aspirations than the average law student somewhere else. grades don't really mater at each (yes, some guy striking out will like to convince you that's not true). ny biglaw is a last resort for a not insignificant number of people at each school and a not insignificant amount of people from h frequently get biglaw in texas with absolutely no ties. to the extent that public statistics fail to account for people at y who pursue other avenues in public interest etc., it also fails to account for legitimate business avenues pursued by people at h, as well as international opportunities.

to the discerning mind with options, biglaw especially in new york is a pretty shitty deal, i don't know why you can't understand that.

i don't know why everybody keeps going on about the options from yale. name one place where h doesn't dominate based on absolute pure numbers.

hell, even they dominate in the number of supreme court clerkships:

http://www.leiterrankings.com/new/2010_ ... ment.shtml

in elite boutiques (note the pure numbers, not per capita):

http://www.leiterrankings.com/new/2012_Boutiques.shtml

this is academia (only place yale beats harvard in raw numbers):

http://leiterrankings.com/new/2011_LawTeachers.shtml

but see: http://www.leiterrankings.com/jobs/2009 ... hing.shtml

of course, every time h does well, it must because of its size.

[Mal Reynolds]

Is blessed assurance crazy?

[hung jury]

Pretty sure blessed assurance is a Stanford troll who wants to portray Harvard in the least favorable light possible.

I'd also like to point out, in S's favor, that there is no unemployment problem in California. We have more jobs than any other state. By millions.

[Blessedassurance]

Pretty sure blessed assurance is a Stanford troll who wants to portray Harvard in the least favorable light possible.

I'd also like to point out, in S's favor, that there is no unemployment problem in California. We have more jobs than any other state. By millions.

not sure if srs:

http://www.bls.gov/web/laus/laumstrk.htm

ps:

http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... 2589186107

[dixiecupdrinking]

p.s. absolute numbers don't matter when your school is 3x bigger.

[sinfiery]

I'm okay with this new era of absolute statistics in the TLS hivemind. HGCNVM are the new T6

All hail blessedassurance!

[Blessedassurance]

p.s. absolute numbers don't matter when your school is 3x bigger.

this thing as been explained over and over again. there are a limited number of positions. you can't staff the supreme court with 9 justices from harvard. someone's gotta come from somewhere else. if one supreme court justice went to chicago, leiter would be running around conducting per capita rankings of supreme court justices.

[dixiecupdrinking]

p.s. absolute numbers don't matter when your school is 3x bigger.

this thing as been explained over and over again. there are a limited number of positions. you can't staff the supreme court with 9 justices from harvard. someone's gotta come from somewhere else. if one supreme court justice went to chicago, leiter would be running around conducting per capita rankings of supreme court justices.

Why couldn't you staff the SCOTUS with nine Harvard justices? I don't even follow what your point is supposed to be.

[2014]

How dare you question Brian Leiter

[20141023]

.

[dr123]

Im surprised LSU didnt make this list. They have pretty solid employment outcomes.

[TrustInMusic]

the so-called differences are only magnified by people on tls who don't go to any of them

Where else will you find a group of neurotic netizens who are this interested in splitting micro-hairs between virtually identical options?

Good ol' TLS

----

Surprised that Columbia is this low though

[Blessedassurance]

p.s. absolute numbers don't matter when your school is 3x bigger.

this thing as been explained over and over again. there are a limited number of positions. you can't staff the supreme court with 9 justices from harvard. someone's gotta come from somewhere else. if one supreme court justice went to chicago, leiter would be running around conducting per capita rankings of supreme court justices.

Why couldn't you staff the SCOTUS with nine Harvard justices? I don't even follow what your point is supposed to be.

Wow dixiecupdrinking, I just lost a lot of respect for you based on this ignorant comment... I thought you were more knowledgeable about this sort of thing.

To spell it out for you, just like presidential candidates must be at least 35 years of age, there are rules regarding who can become a justice of the SCOTUS; one of the rules is that if the other 8 justices got their law degree from the same school as you when a position on the court opens up, then you are not eligible for that position. Hence it is literally impossible for there to be 9 Harvard justices on the SCOTUS.

??

psst h.l. mencken, if you're aiming for the whole ok-cupid-shrew-opening-paragraph-reminding-the-world-they-are-sarcastic-and-feel-at-home-in-both-a-suit-and-jeans, at least be witty.

http://jurist.org/forum/2010/05/elitism ... -court.php

http://www.time.com/time/nation/article ... 77,00.html

http://s149435.gridserver.com/2013/02/2 ... urt-bench/

http://www.csmonitor.com/Commentary/Opi ... reme-Court

[PDaddy]

I am login' it. Finally...no BS! And the ranking doesn't look all that different from the USNWR rankings, except for so-called "second tier" schools like STL, GA State, U-Houston, BYU, New Mexico, Seton Hall, and Miami getting their due.

There's some musical chairs played out, but the T14 is still the T14, the top-20 is mostly still the top-20, and #21-50 is no real surprise either.

[Yukos]

There's some musical chairs played out, but the T14T13 is still the T14T13, the top-20 is mostly still the top-20, and #21-50 is no real surprise either.

[Renne Walker]

USNWR’s reports are essentially the same every year because they always use the same methodology. It’s no surprise that competing polls, using different methodology, produce [somewhat] different results.

What is it about the ATL methodology that caused all the NYC based schools targeting BL to take hits? Columbia 4 to #8, NYU 6 to #10, Fordham 38 to #48 while other schools, Chicago, Penn, Duke, etc., targeting NYC BL either stayed the same or went up.
What’s up with that?

[toothbrush]

USNWR’s reports are essentially the same every year because they always use the same methodology. It’s no surprise that competing polls, using different methodology, produce [somewhat] different results.

What is it about the ATL methodology that caused all the NYC based schools targeting BL to take hits? Columbia 4 to #8, NYU 6 to #10, Fordham 38 to #48 while other schools, Chicago, Penn, Duke, etc., targeting NYC BL either stayed the same or went up.
What’s up with that?

Cost of degree is 15%. NYC schools have the highest CoA on top of the tuition which is similar between all schools.

BTW since when did TLS start saying t13?

[Lavitz]

BTW since when did TLS start saying t13?

GULC is #16 in the ATL rankings so you can't exactly make a statement like "the T14 is still the T14."