Requiem for a 0L: A Cold Feet Post

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born4law
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Re: Requiem for a 0L: The Ultimate Cold Feet Post

Postby born4law » Wed Apr 24, 2013 8:34 pm

beepboopbeep wrote:OP, I think we have some different life philosophies, but this is basically my situation. I did a lot of drinking and Netflix-watching and hookah smoking throughout undergrad, took fun classes in literature and poetry, and though I had a great time, I really regret how it turned out. Part of why I want to go to law school is to have another crack at it. I recognize that this is a bad reason to go to law school, and I hope you recognize that your reasons are no better :)

Similar enthusiast background re:coding, startups, etc., though my passion is more indie games than the business side. Similar prestigious undergrad. Similar time out of school, though my waiting was more about figuring out what I wanted to do than struggling with the LSAT.

Amen brotha!

beepboopbeep wrote:got links for those post-bacs?

Yea sure, check these out:
NYU PAC program: http://www.cs.nyu.edu/webapps/content/a ... aduate/pac
BU Master's program in computer science: http://www.bu.edu/cs/graduate/masters-program/
Penn Master of Computer and Information Technology (MCIT): http://www.cis.upenn.edu/grad/mcit/
Columbia Postbaccalaureate Studies program: http://ce.columbia.edu/postbaccalaureat ... r-science#

And of course there's always DevBootCamp, HackerSchool, CodeAcademy, etc (as you're already aware of), but they're not degree-granting.

beepboopbeep wrote:To the others: I've taken shits on TTTThreads as much as anyone, but this OP seems pretty sincere (if a bit long-winded), and deserves more constructive advice than, "U R DUMB."

Thank you beepboop. I knew there's people out there outside of the super sarcastic, crass-ass mold TLS seems to attract a lot of. Ironically, a lot of these snarky types actually provide really good info. They're just really... insensitive and arrogant. Or maybe that's just what typing behind a screen of anonymity will getcha!

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smaug_
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Re: Requiem for a 0L: The Ultimate Cold Feet Post

Postby smaug_ » Wed Apr 24, 2013 8:40 pm

beepboopbeep wrote:To the others: I've taken shits on TTTThreads as much as anyone, but this OP seems pretty sincere (if a bit long-winded), and deserves more constructive advice than, "U R DUMB."


Here's my constructive advice: do not go to law school unless you are certain you want to be a lawyer. When you see yourself in ten years, are you working as a lawyer? After meeting more lawyers, I actually do think that some people can have interesting careers from law school. The public interest/private sector line is more porous than you might think. If you work for the right firm or in the right practice group, you might get to learn about some legitimately interesting things. That said, almost all of those interesting roles are as practicing attorneys. I'm fine with OP building castles in the sky, but he should be building the right ones. Maybe I'm wrong, but even aiming for GC for a tech company seems more realistic than starting a tech company. (Still not that realistic; I'm sure they'd have a tech background.)

This is more... cynical. You're being really sardonic. Those things are not my current fantasy of law school.


Yes, I'm being a little mean and cynical. I'm glad you're listening, though. If they don't currently reflect your current fantasy of law school, why do you want to go to law school? What do you imagine yourself doing after graduation? After five years? Ten? We all build up some fantasies and aspirations; some will be attainable and others will elude us. What is important is that we at least aim in the right direction. Based on what you said in your OP, I cannot imagine you as happy in law school. I don't see how law school is a step toward your dreams. To be less mean about it:

If you want to meet smart, interesting people to date, law school is probably a bad choice. Do you want to date someone at the same law school? Someone working the same crushing hours?

If you want to work in tech, law school is probably a bad choice. If you had a hard science background you could consider IP, but as you don't you probably will never end up working in an area that would be satisfying for you.

If you want to be an entrepreneur, going to a prestigious law school is probably a bad decision. Starting your own firm/going into solo practice is about the only entrepreneurial outcome that seems reasonable to me from law. Very very few students from prestigious schools will go down this path. Lawyers are not primary actors: they assist transactions; they litigate on the behalf of another; they protect the wealth of others. Even if you were to start your own firm, you'd still always be working for a client, so I think entrepreneurial spirit isn't really compatible with the practice of law.

You can take everything I've said with a grain of salt. I'm just a student. But, I think that if you take those questions seriously you'll understand my derisive tone in response to your posts.

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beepboopbeep
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Re: Requiem for a 0L: The Ultimate Cold Feet Post

Postby beepboopbeep » Wed Apr 24, 2013 8:47 pm

born4law wrote:And of course there's always DevBootCamp, HackerSchool, CodeAcademy, etc (as you're already aware of), but they're not degree-granting.


Right - that's been a fear of mine about them. I have no doubt they're great for getting a gig at a Ruby shop or whatever, but the signaling effect of accredited degrees is unfortunately quite important ITE.

Who knows - maybe competency-based testing will take off in the next few years; it sounds like we're both in that kind of no-man's-land between complete ignorance and BS-level competency.

Best of luck, and thanks for the links!

hibiki wrote:Here's my constructive advice: do not go to law school unless you are certain you want to be a lawyer. When you see yourself in ten years, are you working as a lawyer?


I take this seriously. I really do, and that's what's giving me so much pause about the whole thing, on the cusp of burning cash on a deposit. I don't really see myself doing anything in ten years, or, I can see myself doing a lot of different things, all of which would be okay for me. Perhaps I'm approaching the category of "people who have given up on dreams of being fulfilled," sad as it sounds.

Edited for grammar.
Last edited by beepboopbeep on Wed Apr 24, 2013 8:51 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Tekrul
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Re: Requiem for a 0L: A Cold Feet Post

Postby Tekrul » Wed Apr 24, 2013 8:48 pm

I get you man. I wanted to pursue my Ph.D in Philosophy, become a professor, and stay in academia my entire life.

I'm going to end it there. I wrote a much longer post commiserating with yours but then I realized how much I was outing myself, revealing terrible things, and turning TLS boards into my personal psychiatrist's office. I'll save my story for God and beg mercy and forgiveness when I'm old. I have to say, writing it all out was quite therapeutic.

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smaug_
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Re: Requiem for a 0L: The Ultimate Cold Feet Post

Postby smaug_ » Wed Apr 24, 2013 8:51 pm

beepboopbeep wrote:Perhaps I'm approaching the category of "people who have given up on dreams of being fulfilled."

Image

(You think I'm joking, but I'm not.)

qwertyboard
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Re: Requiem for a 0L: A Cold Feet Post

Postby qwertyboard » Wed Apr 24, 2013 9:00 pm

Some comments...

I identify with OP in terms of anxiety. I also feel like I coasted through undergrad but because It wasn't a challenge (basic math involved, useful major). Maybe this happened to you too.

Also.. LS prestige is just there to get you a first job. Afterwards, it will be all you and some luck.

qwertyboard
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Re: Requiem for a 0L: A Cold Feet Post

Postby qwertyboard » Wed Apr 24, 2013 9:04 pm

Tekrul wrote:I get you man. I wanted to pursue my Ph.D in Philosophy, become a professor, and stay in academia my entire life.

I'm going to end it there. I wrote a much longer post commiserating with yours but then I realized how much I was outing myself, revealing terrible things, and turning TLS boards into my personal psychiatrist's office. I'll save my story for God and beg mercy and forgiveness when I'm old. I have to say, writing it all out was quite therapeutic.


You realized that you have to eat. Forget about getting a tenured position. Do you know how bad part-time professors have it? I guess you do. Tons of people are going with the dream of becoming professors and having 2 months a year to themselves but that not gonna happen.
Last edited by qwertyboard on Thu Apr 25, 2013 11:03 am, edited 2 times in total.

born4law
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Re: Requiem for a 0L: The Ultimate Cold Feet Post

Postby born4law » Wed Apr 24, 2013 9:05 pm

hibiki wrote:I'm fine with OP building castles in the sky, but he should be building the right ones. Maybe I'm wrong, but even aiming for GC for a tech company seems more realistic than starting a tech company. (Still not that realistic; I'm sure they'd have a tech background.)

Thanks hibiki, I feel the sincerity now. You've made really good points. As far as people with law backgrounds getting into tech, it seems to be happening in limited instances. There's a lot of HYS types who've actually just dropped out after 2L or right after graduating and self-taught themselves coding and launched an idea or two.

Here's a post from one of these guys: --LinkRemoved--
And here's another: http://coffeespoonsofcode.wordpress.com ... by-hacker/
And of course there's Blake Masters: http://blakemasters.com/about

See! Not just pie-in-the-sky thinking!

Can I be one of these people? Maybe. Should I even try given all the knowledge I have now about what law school's going to be like (which these guys likely never researched ahead of time)? Probably not.

hibiki wrote:you probably will never end up working in an area that would be satisfying for you ... I think that if you take those questions seriously you'll understand my derisive tone in response to your posts.

I hear you. And I get your tone too. It's like a disappointed yet hopeful parent that trusts their child to grow up a little and answer the tough questions before them, but he/she is glad that their child is smart enough to debate these questions.

beepboopbeep wrote:Who knows - maybe competency-based testing will take off in the next few years; it sounds like we're both in that kind of no-man's-land between complete ignorance and BS-level competency.

Exactly. We're in a really weird place right now. Higher education is being disrupted. Massively open online courseware (MOOCs) seem hopeful. I'm not saying they're a panacea, but they're definitely driving a wedge through old models. In 10 or 20 years, those who are our age now are likely not to face these grueling career questions. For now... $@!#$%!

Tekrul wrote:I get you man. I wanted to pursue my Ph.D in Philosophy, become a professor, and stay in academia my entire life.

I'm going to end it there. I wrote a much longer post commiserating with yours but then I realized how much I was outing myself, revealing terrible things, and turning TLS boards into my personal psychiatrist's office. I'll save my story for God and beg mercy and forgiveness when I'm old. I have to say, writing it all out was quite therapeutic.

Yes, my OP was basically a semi-public therapy session. And you know what? I'm not ashamed. There needs to be more of that. More public tissue-blowing and hugs given and straight talk dished. If I met you in real life, I wouldn't be afraid to own up to my story here and tell you I thought these things. It's part of my life journey. It's part of who I am. I live openly. It's an ethos I share with the hacker community at-large. Perhaps that set of values is one of the most telling signs that I should not go to law school.

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dextermorgan
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Re: Requiem for a 0L: A Cold Feet Post

Postby dextermorgan » Wed Apr 24, 2013 9:10 pm

Of course I didn't read the OP (I've got exams to study for and shit), but from the summaries I will say that OP probably shouldn't go to law school. It is, afterall, the place where dreams go to die while you turn into a nice cog in the middle class mediocrity machine.

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smaug_
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Re: Requiem for a 0L: A Cold Feet Post

Postby smaug_ » Wed Apr 24, 2013 9:18 pm

There's a lot of HYS types who've actually just dropped out after 2L or right after graduating and self-taught themselves coding and launched an idea or two.


And what exactly did they gain from going to law school?

born4law
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Re: Requiem for a 0L: A Cold Feet Post

Postby born4law » Wed Apr 24, 2013 9:24 pm

hibiki wrote:
There's a lot of HYS types who've actually just dropped out after 2L or right after graduating and self-taught themselves coding and launched an idea or two.


And what exactly did they gain from going to law school?


Yea... not much. That's why I said just because there's been cases like that doesn't mean I have to go follow in their footsteps. I can quit while I'm ahead. Although Blake Masters did get to audit the CS 183 course guest taught by Peter Thiel (http://blakemasters.com/peter-thiels-cs183-startup). By blogging the whole course he networked with a bunch of high-profile Silicon Valley types. But that's just a really, really limited case. Still a good example of the types of synergies that can happen at an HYS program.

El Principe
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Re: Requiem for a 0L: A Cold Feet Post

Postby El Principe » Wed Apr 24, 2013 10:59 pm

I feel OP when it comes to coasting through undergrad and somewhat regretful of a choice of major; not so much because I don't want to do law but more for backups and being able to get out in 4 years....but honestly, there's next to nothing that we can do about it. Fortunately for me, law is still a preferred career and I'm not sure if I'd prefer engineering over this.. finance, maybe, but I'm not sure.

But I'm definitely not in the same boat as OP in terms of trying to jump ship... and when I put that in perspective, I'm don't really have any major regrets.... well actually, I regret not switching my 401k to Apple stock (before it doubled in value :cry: lol) when I worked there, but that's got nothing do do with school.

chadbrochill
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Re: Requiem for a 0L: A Cold Feet Post

Postby chadbrochill » Wed Apr 24, 2013 11:28 pm

Not necessarily about law, but I found this article about taking the plunge to grad school interesting and relevant:

http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/b ... ision.html

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Re: Requiem for a 0L: A Cold Feet Post

Postby qwertyboard » Thu Apr 25, 2013 11:08 am

El Principe wrote:I feel OP when it comes to coasting through undergrad and somewhat regretful of a choice of major; not so much because I don't want to do law but more for backups and being able to get out in 4 years....but honestly, there's next to nothing that we can do about it. Fortunately for me, law is still a preferred career and I'm not sure if I'd prefer engineering over this.. finance, maybe, but I'm not sure.

But I'm definitely not in the same boat as OP in terms of trying to jump ship... and when I put that in perspective, I'm don't really have any major regrets.... well actually, I regret not switching my 401k to Apple stock (before it doubled in value :cry: lol) when I worked there, but that's got nothing do do with school.


The people that are determining (people in the market) the price of Apple stocks are completely irrational. Just because they are not performing as well as they did in 1-2 years ago people start panicking, even though they are still performing very well. I'm tired of seeing apple stock drop $200 just because they had 41 billion in revenue instead of the projected 42.

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beepboopbeep
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Re: Requiem for a 0L: A Cold Feet Post

Postby beepboopbeep » Thu Apr 25, 2013 11:13 am

qwertyboard wrote:
El Principe wrote:I feel OP when it comes to coasting through undergrad and somewhat regretful of a choice of major; not so much because I don't want to do law but more for backups and being able to get out in 4 years....but honestly, there's next to nothing that we can do about it. Fortunately for me, law is still a preferred career and I'm not sure if I'd prefer engineering over this.. finance, maybe, but I'm not sure.

But I'm definitely not in the same boat as OP in terms of trying to jump ship... and when I put that in perspective, I'm don't really have any major regrets.... well actually, I regret not switching my 401k to Apple stock (before it doubled in value :cry: lol) when I worked there, but that's got nothing do do with school.


The people that are determining (people in the market) the price of Apple stocks are completely irrational. Just because they are not performing as well as they did in 1-2 years ago people start panicking, even though they are still performing very well. I'm tired of seeing apple stock drop $200 just because they had 41 billion in revenue instead of the projected 42.


To be fair, their tablet market-share tanked like 20 points in the past year, and there are pretty legitimate concerns over whether they'll continue to drive the market post-Jobs. Does Tim Cook inspire a lot of confidence in you?

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Re: Requiem for a 0L: The Ultimate Cold Feet Post

Postby TheThriller » Thu Apr 25, 2013 12:05 pm

bk1 wrote:
hibiki wrote:or people who have given up on dreams of being fulfilled.

I appreciated this.


Dreams are overrated in my opinion

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NoodleyOne
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Re: Requiem for a 0L: The Ultimate Cold Feet Post

Postby NoodleyOne » Thu Apr 25, 2013 3:54 pm

TheThriller wrote:
bk1 wrote:
hibiki wrote:or people who have given up on dreams of being fulfilled.

I appreciated this.


Dreams are overrated in my opinion

100% this. Dreams are a Boomer flame.

born4law
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Re: Requiem for a 0L: The Ultimate Cold Feet Post

Postby born4law » Thu Apr 25, 2013 8:26 pm

NoodleyOne wrote:
TheThriller wrote:
bk1 wrote:
hibiki wrote:or people who have given up on dreams of being fulfilled.

I appreciated this.


Dreams are overrated in my opinion

100% this. Dreams are a Boomer flame.


I knew my OP was a bit self-loathing and pessimistic, but it seems the replies it's garnered have far outdone my own negativity. Look at you all... wow. Haha, it's almost comical!

Said my 2L friend the other day, "So what do you expect? I go to an institution that's designed to pump out drones. These are people that only care about making money. They don't care about 'what the work environment is like' or any of that crap. Just money. So how did you think their personalities were going to be?"

With respect to my friend's advice, this thread seems damn accurate.

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VegasLaw702
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.

Postby VegasLaw702 » Thu Apr 25, 2013 10:09 pm

.
Last edited by VegasLaw702 on Tue Apr 30, 2013 6:06 am, edited 1 time in total.

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stuckinthemiddle
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Re: Requiem for a 0L: A Cold Feet Post

Postby stuckinthemiddle » Thu Apr 25, 2013 10:27 pm

OP, I feel for you and have close to the exact same sentiment (except I hate engineering/coding/finance/etc. so I don't feel I'm missing out on a better high-paying career by going to LS, and there is honestly not much else I'm passionate about) but I keep it to myself instead of posting it on TLS for this exact reason. :lol:

Good luck.

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johnreagan
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Re: Requiem for a 0L: A Cold Feet Post

Postby johnreagan » Thu Apr 25, 2013 10:41 pm

Do devbootcamp then see if you can bootstrap your own startup in a year. If you have got the talent- you make it, if you don't, you start law school at 26 instead of 25.

born4law
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Re: Requiem for a 0L: The Ultimate Cold Feet Post

Postby born4law » Thu Apr 25, 2013 11:18 pm

VegasLaw702 wrote:
born4law wrote:I knew my OP was a bit self-loathing and pessimistic, but it seems the replies it's garnered have far outdone my own negativity.
With respect to my friend's advice, this thread seems damn accurate.


With respect to your post, what did you expect? Most likely, you made that post hoping that people would rally behind you and motivate you to "stick to it" and tell you that "you can do it" (Waterboy, anyone?). But reality is most of us are here because we know where we are headed, and this isn't a board for those who are unsure. Nobody is being rude by telling you not to go to law school, but rather just pointing out the obvious: Don't dig yourself 100k+ in debt, and 3+ years of lost earnings, for something you aren't sure of. If you need to, take a year or two off. You can go code your heart away, and law school will be there for you in 2 years once you've matured a little more. This sounds like a classic case of a K-JD in a rush to grow up, and now that reality is setting in you wish you would have slowed down. Nothing wrong with that, but don't get upset when you make a soap opera-esque plea for help on a board full of future and current law students, only be told exactly what you DIDN'T want to hear.

I get your point. But for the record (and I don't blame you for skimming my OP and missing this), I'm not K-JD. I'll be starting 3 years after undergrad. For better or worse, reality is hitting me now (not immediately after graduating). I thought it a good idea to put my story out there on a board with the K-JDers that you're referring to, so they can see these other paths. There's no rule explicitly prohibiting these types of posts. I did a site-specific Google search for "cold feet" and there were a few others on TLS, but I wanted to add something with a bit more depth. There's too many 0Ls with crappy math skills damnit!

VegasLaw702 wrote:
born4law wrote:Now I can't help but think it will be my tragic fall.


Oh, and that part was classic

Haha thank you :)

johnreagan wrote:Do devbootcamp then see if you can bootstrap your own startup in a year. If you have got the talent- you make it, if you don't, you start law school at 26 instead of 25.

Good answer, I like it.

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lawschoolwoohoo
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Re: Requiem for a 0L: A Cold Feet Post

Postby lawschoolwoohoo » Fri Apr 26, 2013 8:45 pm

Thanks for posting this. I'm trying to get myself to get excited about law school because I know I do want to do it, and I think I'd be pretty good at it, and there's nothing else I'm very passionate about. But pretty much all I want to do is just like move to Europe and get like odd jobs or something and find some stupid dream to fulfill. But as someone else said, dreams=boomer flame. So I'm going to put on my big girl panties and go to a well-ranked law school with a nice scholarship. This could be a mistake, but I'm going to do it anyway.

That probably didn't help anyone at all but just wanted to commiserate with OP.




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