Waiting until next year and retaking

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zbenson
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Waiting until next year and retaking

Postby zbenson » Tue Apr 09, 2013 7:44 pm

I assume this is the correct strategy. I didn't realize how bad the 160 was until I got on here and it seems like I need a 170 minimum to get in anywhere worthwhile with the hope of any type of scholarship assistance. I was offered some money to some okay schools but certainly nothing that would indicate taking on the debt still required to attend would be at all a good idea.

This is my cycle so far: http://lawschoolnumbers.com/zkbccn

Now I know that my Degree GPA is pretty much meaningless and my LSDAC GPA because of some long-term health problems is just terrible, but is there any chance by focusing in May and June after graduation on getting a 170+ that I can get into a school that will at all be not just a huge debt and living hell?

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TripTrip
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Re: Waiting until next year and retaking

Postby TripTrip » Wed Apr 10, 2013 10:45 am

Your LSDAS GPA is 2.25? Ouch. I'm assuming not URM, either.

We don't have a lot of data for sub 2.5 GPAs in T1/T2 schools. The best cycle was probably this one: http://lawschoolnumbers.com/bigpoppanate

As you can see, he applied just about everywhere and got small scholarships from four schools. However he also is multilingual, has a masters degree, and taught language internationally.

The schools you're considering are not worth the $100k debt you would rack up by attending. I know William Mitchell graduates who are doing nothing with their JD, because if you don't graduate in the top 5% of the class you have very limited options.

zbenson
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Re: Waiting until next year and retaking

Postby zbenson » Wed Apr 10, 2013 12:24 pm

TripTrip wrote:Your LSDAS GPA is 2.25? Ouch. I'm assuming not URM, either.

We don't have a lot of data for sub 2.5 GPAs in T1/T2 schools. The best cycle was probably this one: http://lawschoolnumbers.com/bigpoppanate

As you can see, he applied just about everywhere and got small scholarships from four schools. However he also is multilingual, has a masters degree, and taught language internationally.

The schools you're considering are not worth the $100k debt you would rack up by attending. I know William Mitchell graduates who are doing nothing with their JD, because if you don't graduate in the top 5% of the class you have very limited options.


I know it is certainly not ideal. It has been a difficult journey but I am not giving up on fulfilling my career goals. I am however in all likelihood going to punt the cycle and try to take the test again in June. My practice tests I was in the 170-174 range and I was disappointed when I got the 160, although I had a feeling I was in trouble because my time management on the test was less than ideal. I had an LSAC waiver so this cycle has not been all that expensive so I figure I can save up and try next cycle if I can improve my score to at least get into a second tier school with a significant scholarship. If that plan fails, I may shift gears and go the MBA route but I want to see this through and fully understand my options if I can score what I feel I am capable of on the June LSAT.

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dirtrida2
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Re: Waiting until next year and retaking

Postby dirtrida2 » Wed Apr 10, 2013 12:36 pm

I don't mean to sound harsh, but will these health issues still hold you back in law school?

If the above is true and has solely lead to your low GPA, I'm sorry and wish you the best of luck. If your GPA is from a voluntary lack of study and/or inherent "laziness", I sure hope you understand the dedication that law school requires.

zbenson
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Re: Waiting until next year and retaking

Postby zbenson » Wed Apr 10, 2013 12:49 pm

dirtrida2 wrote:I don't mean to sound harsh, but will these health issues still hold you back in law school?

If the above is true and has solely lead to your low GPA, I'm sorry and wish you the best of luck. If your GPA is from a voluntary lack of study and/or inherent "laziness", I sure hope you understand the dedication that law school requires.


It's a totally fair question. I am 100% healthy and recovered. I have received a 4.00 (real) 4.03 (LSAC) since going back to school in Fall of 2011. Likelihood of recurrence is not very high so I feel confident that it will not interfere with my livelihood again.

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dirtrida2
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Re: Waiting until next year and retaking

Postby dirtrida2 » Wed Apr 10, 2013 1:03 pm

zbenson wrote:
dirtrida2 wrote:I don't mean to sound harsh, but will these health issues still hold you back in law school?

If the above is true and has solely lead to your low GPA, I'm sorry and wish you the best of luck. If your GPA is from a voluntary lack of study and/or inherent "laziness", I sure hope you understand the dedication that law school requires.


It's a totally fair question. I am 100% healthy and recovered. I have received a 4.00 (real) 4.03 (LSAC) since going back to school in Fall of 2011. Likelihood of recurrence is not very high so I feel confident that it will not interfere with my livelihood again.



Finally someone who can take criticism on an online forum, lol.

Glad to hear that you are back on your feet. My LSAT is in a similar range, slightly higher, but I am fortunate to have a high GPA. My cycle has gone fairly well and I am taking a full ride + stipend. Though, with a 2.5 GPA you really need to kill the LSAT and apply early.

No reason to fret on the past, you just have to work extra hard. If your first LSAT score was a 160, I'm confident you can improve.

zbenson
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Re: Waiting until next year and retaking

Postby zbenson » Wed Apr 10, 2013 1:10 pm

dirtrida2 wrote:
zbenson wrote:
dirtrida2 wrote:I don't mean to sound harsh, but will these health issues still hold you back in law school?

If the above is true and has solely lead to your low GPA, I'm sorry and wish you the best of luck. If your GPA is from a voluntary lack of study and/or inherent "laziness", I sure hope you understand the dedication that law school requires.


It's a totally fair question. I am 100% healthy and recovered. I have received a 4.00 (real) 4.03 (LSAC) since going back to school in Fall of 2011. Likelihood of recurrence is not very high so I feel confident that it will not interfere with my livelihood again.



Finally someone who can take criticism on an online forum, lol.

Glad to hear that you are back on your feet. My LSAT is in a similar range, slightly higher, but I am fortunate to have a high GPA. My cycle has gone fairly well and I am taking a full ride + stipend. Though, with a 2.5 GPA you really need to kill the LSAT and apply early.

No reason to fret on the past, you just have to work extra hard. If your first LSAT score was a 160, I'm confident you can improve.


The way I look at it is, there are a lot of cold hard truths about law school, and specifically, right now my total body of work is not going to get me into a situation where the reward outweighs the risk. I was being so hardheaded thinking I could go in and kick everyone ass that I was about to decide between Kent and William Mitchell and be in the top 5% and everything will be fine. However, reality set in, the light bulb went on, and I realized that short of qualifying for a very, very significant scholarship, I should take the summer and make my file as attractive as possible and see where that leads me. If I can't improve my score, then there is always time to shift my career goals at that point. The reason I posted this is just to get some feedback about my thought process and I appreciate your contribution.

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Micdiddy
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Re: Waiting until next year and retaking

Postby Micdiddy » Wed Apr 10, 2013 2:06 pm

First of all, thank you for retaking and reapplying. That is definitely the best bet, and it's good to see someone who realizes that already instead of 3+ pages convincing them not go to random bad school.

When it comes to that GPA one "good" thing is that you can write a pretty good addendum about why it's so low, and show that after these issues you a rocking a 4.0. Personally, it's a convincing argument to me. Maybe you should have put your studies aside when sick, etc. etc., but you are showing now as a healthy adult you can achieve academically.
The unfortunate thing about this is it doesn't change the number, and as you know by now schools really do care about that number. They may be convinced you are intellectually superior than someone with a 3.7, but they will likely still take the 3.7 to keep up averages. Schools have some room to take these low numbers and not affect their median, but it just means there are fewer spots you're competing for.

Ti Malice
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Re: Waiting until next year and retaking

Postby Ti Malice » Wed Apr 10, 2013 2:11 pm

zbenson wrote:
dirtrida2 wrote:I don't mean to sound harsh, but will these health issues still hold you back in law school?

If the above is true and has solely lead to your low GPA, I'm sorry and wish you the best of luck. If your GPA is from a voluntary lack of study and/or inherent "laziness", I sure hope you understand the dedication that law school requires.


It's a totally fair question. I am 100% healthy and recovered. I have received a 4.00 (real) 4.03 (LSAC) since going back to school in Fall of 2011. Likelihood of recurrence is not very high so I feel confident that it will not interfere with my livelihood again.


Have you looked into getting retroactive medical withdrawals for any of these past courses?

zbenson
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Joined: Thu Nov 01, 2012 10:08 am

Re: Waiting until next year and retaking

Postby zbenson » Wed Apr 10, 2013 2:14 pm

Ti Malice wrote:
zbenson wrote:
dirtrida2 wrote:I don't mean to sound harsh, but will these health issues still hold you back in law school?

If the above is true and has solely lead to your low GPA, I'm sorry and wish you the best of luck. If your GPA is from a voluntary lack of study and/or inherent "laziness", I sure hope you understand the dedication that law school requires.


It's a totally fair question. I am 100% healthy and recovered. I have received a 4.00 (real) 4.03 (LSAC) since going back to school in Fall of 2011. Likelihood of recurrence is not very high so I feel confident that it will not interfere with my livelihood again.


Have you looked into getting retroactive medical withdrawals for any of these past courses?


I did contact the University in regard to this matter and unfortunately my request was denied due to too much time elapsing between the courses ending and the request being made.

zbenson
Posts: 70
Joined: Thu Nov 01, 2012 10:08 am

Re: Waiting until next year and retaking

Postby zbenson » Wed Apr 10, 2013 2:18 pm

Micdiddy wrote:First of all, thank you for retaking and reapplying. That is definitely the best bet, and it's good to see someone who realizes that already instead of 3+ pages convincing them not go to random bad school.

When it comes to that GPA one "good" thing is that you can write a pretty good addendum about why it's so low, and show that after these issues you a rocking a 4.0. Personally, it's a convincing argument to me. Maybe you should have put your studies aside when sick, etc. etc., but you are showing now as a healthy adult you can achieve academically.
The unfortunate thing about this is it doesn't change the number, and as you know by now schools really do care about that number. They may be convinced you are intellectually superior than someone with a 3.7, but they will likely still take the 3.7 to keep up averages. Schools have some room to take these low numbers and not affect their median, but it just means there are fewer spots you're competing for.


This is exactly what I am thinking. Try and take advantage of the fact that some schools may need my LSAT number if I can raise it more than they will need a GPA to ass to their numbers. There are some splitter friendly schools out there and I feel as if I can really take the time after graduation to go back through my materials. I really want dive into the PowerScore books more than I did for the October test with a focus on managing my time and becoming more consistent in my approach. I think there may be some opportunities out there for me if I can really raise my score. I am so glad that TLS exists because without it I probably would've gone to William Mitchell under the misguided impression that a 55% scholarship made it a good idea or Chicago-Kent with only $10,000 a year and leaving with 200k+ in debt after interest is accumulated.

It was actually reading everyone's repeated "retake" or "Don't Go" on other peoples threads that finally got the point into my head that I cannot count on being better than 95% of a group of people that I have never met and do not know anything about.

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Micdiddy
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Re: Waiting until next year and retaking

Postby Micdiddy » Wed Apr 10, 2013 2:21 pm

zbenson wrote:
Micdiddy wrote:First of all, thank you for retaking and reapplying. That is definitely the best bet, and it's good to see someone who realizes that already instead of 3+ pages convincing them not go to random bad school.

When it comes to that GPA one "good" thing is that you can write a pretty good addendum about why it's so low, and show that after these issues you a rocking a 4.0. Personally, it's a convincing argument to me. Maybe you should have put your studies aside when sick, etc. etc., but you are showing now as a healthy adult you can achieve academically.
The unfortunate thing about this is it doesn't change the number, and as you know by now schools really do care about that number. They may be convinced you are intellectually superior than someone with a 3.7, but they will likely still take the 3.7 to keep up averages. Schools have some room to take these low numbers and not affect their median, but it just means there are fewer spots you're competing for.


This is exactly what I am thinking. Try and take advantage of the fact that some schools may need my LSAT number if I can raise it more than they will need a GPA to ass to their numbers. There are some splitter friendly schools out there and I feel as if I can really take the time after graduation to go back through my materials. I really want dive into the PowerScore books more than I did for the October test with a focus on managing my time and becoming more consistent in my approach. I think there may be some opportunities out there for me if I can really raise my score. I am so glad that TLS exists because without it I probably would've gone to William Mitchell under the misguided impression that a 55% scholarship made it a good idea or Chicago-Kent with only $10,000 a year and leaving with 200k+ in debt after interest is accumulated.

It was actually reading everyone's repeated "retake" or "Don't Go" on other peoples threads that finally got the point into my head that I cannot count on being better than 95% of a group of people that I have never met and do not know anything about.


TLS is a lifesaver. I took the LSAT thinking U.C. Davis was my dream school.

But yeah, rock that LSAT, be a splitter, paper 10+ schools (maybe more) and a decent one will bite with $$$ (hopefully).

Ti Malice
Posts: 1955
Joined: Sat Mar 03, 2012 2:55 am

Re: Waiting until next year and retaking

Postby Ti Malice » Wed Apr 10, 2013 2:40 pm

zbenson wrote:
Ti Malice wrote:
zbenson wrote:
dirtrida2 wrote:I don't mean to sound harsh, but will these health issues still hold you back in law school?

If the above is true and has solely lead to your low GPA, I'm sorry and wish you the best of luck. If your GPA is from a voluntary lack of study and/or inherent "laziness", I sure hope you understand the dedication that law school requires.


It's a totally fair question. I am 100% healthy and recovered. I have received a 4.00 (real) 4.03 (LSAC) since going back to school in Fall of 2011. Likelihood of recurrence is not very high so I feel confident that it will not interfere with my livelihood again.


Have you looked into getting retroactive medical withdrawals for any of these past courses?


I did contact the University in regard to this matter and unfortunately my request was denied due to too much time elapsing between the courses ending and the request being made.


Not trying to be nosy, but did you appeal that up as far as possible? I know someone who was told no in the beginning who managed to get retroactive withdrawals after pressing her case with people up the chain. Every school has its own policies, of course, but make sure you don't accept a final answer from any lower-level personnel.

zbenson
Posts: 70
Joined: Thu Nov 01, 2012 10:08 am

Re: Waiting until next year and retaking

Postby zbenson » Wed Apr 10, 2013 2:43 pm

Ti Malice wrote:
Not trying to be nosy, but did you appeal that up as far as possible? I know someone who was told no in the beginning who managed to get retroactive withdrawals after pressing her case with people up the chain. Every school has its own policies, of course, but make sure you don't accept a final answer from any lower-level personnel.


You bring up a great point, I have not pushed this issue as far as I possibly could have. Any recommendations as to which level of the scholastic food-chain I should try and represent my case too?

Ti Malice
Posts: 1955
Joined: Sat Mar 03, 2012 2:55 am

Re: Waiting until next year and retaking

Postby Ti Malice » Wed Apr 10, 2013 8:25 pm

zbenson wrote:
Ti Malice wrote:
Not trying to be nosy, but did you appeal that up as far as possible? I know someone who was told no in the beginning who managed to get retroactive withdrawals after pressing her case with people up the chain. Every school has its own policies, of course, but make sure you don't accept a final answer from any lower-level personnel.


You bring up a great point, I have not pushed this issue as far as I possibly could have. Any recommendations as to which level of the scholastic food-chain I should try and represent my case too?


I'm not really the best person to ask, but I gather from the person I know that it's important to reconnect with or find a couple of allies in professors or advisors who could give useful advice about which administrators (lower deans, higher-up deans, etc.) would be more likely to lend you a sympathetic ear. The answer from these folks might still be no. You just don't want to deal with the dean/admin that lives for saying no if you can avoid it.

Good luck!

zbenson
Posts: 70
Joined: Thu Nov 01, 2012 10:08 am

Re: Waiting until next year and retaking

Postby zbenson » Wed Apr 10, 2013 9:09 pm

Ti Malice wrote:
zbenson wrote:
Ti Malice wrote:
Not trying to be nosy, but did you appeal that up as far as possible? I know someone who was told no in the beginning who managed to get retroactive withdrawals after pressing her case with people up the chain. Every school has its own policies, of course, but make sure you don't accept a final answer from any lower-level personnel.


You bring up a great point, I have not pushed this issue as far as I possibly could have. Any recommendations as to which level of the scholastic food-chain I should try and represent my case too?


I'm not really the best person to ask, but I gather from the person I know that it's important to reconnect with or find a couple of allies in professors or advisors who could give useful advice about which administrators (lower deans, higher-up deans, etc.) would be more likely to lend you a sympathetic ear. The answer from these folks might still be no. You just don't want to deal with the dean/admin that lives for saying no if you can avoid it.

Good luck!


Appreciate the insight, I will try and reach out to the strongest point of contact I have at the university and see if I can find a sympathetic ear. Thanks again for pointing out that accepting the answer no based on only one inquiry is foolish. I have had to fight my way back from the depths and overlooking an opportunity to press this issue is unlike me so thank you for the heads up!




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