Non-ABA Law School Dean takes questions Forum

[NYstate]

Well that escalated quickly...

I am interested in hearing more about how MCL serves a vital function in Monterey County. Earlier in the thread I believe you said a large proportion (you might have said over half?) of the bar association in the county were MCL lawyers, do you have a source for that? I know about 30 attorneys in the county and only one went to MCL (the majority went to Hastings which, despite the hell it receives on TLS, is an ABA school that still has a sterling reputation in Northern California).

Yeah, sorry for escalating. I found the post I quoted simply infuriating. This dean of an unaccredited school expects to post a few anecdotes and then condescend to people who question him. He may have convinced himself he isn't a scammer, but I strongly disagree.

[NYstate]

Well that escalated quickly...

I am interested in hearing more about how MCL serves a vital function in Monterey County. Earlier in the thread I believe you said a large proportion (you might have said over half?) of the bar association in the county were MCL lawyers, do you have a source for that? I know about 30 attorneys in the county and only one went to MCL (the majority went to Hastings which, despite the hell it receives on TLS, is an ABA school that still has a sterling reputation in Northern California).

NY . . . Weren't you the one who got mad because I said there was surfing and golf in Monterey? Maybe you have a west coast thing going?

Or maybe I believe you are a lying scammer. Perhaps I see you as the problem not the solution.

I see you are genuinely and quite smugly convinced of your service to mankind. I disagree.

[BlueDiamond]

Did all of your awesome friends also graduate in the middle of the worst recession since the Great Depression with law school tuition rapidly outpacing inflation while having law schools lie to them about their employment prospects?

I hate to disrupt your rant, and I get the anger . . . but if you were following this post, you would see that in this regard I fully agree with you. I think my previous response about the law schools who were blatantly publishing false reports was "they should have gone to jail."

If you want realism wake the hell up... you are part of the problem... you're not helping any of the students that you are stealing money from. Get off your high horse and quit with the "you guys must not be trying hard enough" and "dream bigger" bullshit.

I forgive you if you are a 0L and haven't learned IRAC yet . . . 1L should be very rewarding for you. The issue from my standpoint is that the cost of legal education should be relative to the market it is serving. I think we actually agree on this point as well. In our (very limited) case, we provide legal education at a cost that is supported by the local/regional employment market. In our specific market, that also includes a number of non-traditional career options for recent grads as well as more seasoned professionals.

P.S. Regarding my "awesome friends", I think the sh##boomer rant is on another thread. These alternative career professionals worked hard through more than just one recession, are creative, intelligent, non-traditional, persistent, and hard working . . . Hmmm. sounds like they would have been good as lawyers if they had taken that path as well.

You really just don't get it do you? You are a disgrace to the legal profession. You are profiting off the misery of the graduates that you trick into coming to your school. Your argument is ridiculous. You really want to talk about costs and its relativity to the market that a school serves when you started a law school in a state that has 30+ law schools and has an unemployment rate around 9-10%? You are part of the problem... there is no way around that.

Also, I didn't know that unemployed could now be characterized as "non-traditional."

I noticed on your website that you are a Professor of International Law. How many of your students practice in that area after graduation?

For the record, I'm a 2L and if you're wondering if I'm mad, bro, the answer is yes because I believe that you're an unethical scam artist.

[MCL Law Dean]

You really just don't get it do you? You are a disgrace to the legal profession. You are profiting off the misery of the graduates that you trick into coming to your school. Your argument is ridiculous. You really want to talk about costs and its relativity to the market that a school serves when you started a law school in a state that has 30+ law schools and has an unemployment rate around 9-10%? You are part of the problem... there is no way around that.

Also, I didn't know that unemployed could now be characterized as "non-traditional."

I noticed on your website that you are a Professor of International Law. How many of your students practice in that area after graduation?

For the record, I'm a 2L and if your wondering if I'm mad, bro, the answer is yes because I believe that you're an unethical scam artist.

Oh my, where to start. Kind of like answering the student on the back row who didn't do the reading, but has an opinion never-the-less. First, from previous discussion on this thread you would see that MCL is an accredited California law school (not unaccredited, in response to NYState). I won't go back over why that model works for us, but it is still there for your review. Second, we have served the central coast of California for 40+ years, so we didn't just "start-up". There have been quite a few ABA schools added since we were founded, but you need to take that argument to the ABA (and you won't find me disagreeing). Third, you appear to be responding to specific examples that I provided for actual JD graduates who selected non-traditional career options . . . so I guess that we agree that "unemployed" is actually "unemployed".

I taught International Law as a joint-class with the Naval PostGraduate School (in Monterey) that had a mix of law students and senior international military officers from about 15 countries. Many of the issues we discussed were directly on-point with things they were dealing with in their military career . . . law of war, human rights, Geneva Convention, piracy, military tribunals. The law students brought a theoretical legal perspective into a fascinating comparison of real-life scenarios in which the officers had confronted . . . frequently without any training or background in the underlying laws and treaties that were the basis of field policy. Theory meets reality . . . it was a great class.

Since you are looking at the MCL web site . . . you will also see that the Board of Trustees of our 501(c)3 nonprofit law school is made up of local judges, lawyers, educators, and community leaders. Their fiduciary responsibility (among other things) is to make sure that the dean of their law school is not an "unethical scam artist". The school has been overseen closely by this type of community board for all of its 40 years. Our current faculty includes local lawyers, superior court judges, and even Justices from our state appellate court . . . and I can assure you that they also keep a close watch on the program . . . and the dean.

[Rahviveh]

Did all of your awesome friends also graduate in the middle of the worst recession since the Great Depression with law school tuition rapidly outpacing inflation while having law schools lie to them about their employment prospects?

I hate to disrupt your rant, and I get the anger . . . but if you were following this post, you would see that in this regard I fully agree with you. I think my previous response about the law schools who were blatantly publishing false reports was "they should have gone to jail."

If you want realism wake the hell up... you are part of the problem... you're not helping any of the students that you are stealing money from. Get off your high horse and quit with the "you guys must not be trying hard enough" and "dream bigger" bullshit.

I forgive you if you are a 0L and haven't learned IRAC yet . . . 1L should be very rewarding for you. The issue from my standpoint is that the cost of legal education should be relative to the market it is serving. I think we actually agree on this point as well. In our (very limited) case, we provide legal education at a cost that is supported by the local/regional employment market. In our specific market, that also includes a number of non-traditional career options for recent grads as well as more seasoned professionals.

P.S. Regarding my "awesome friends", I think the sh##boomer rant is on another thread. These alternative career professionals worked hard through more than just one recession, are creative, intelligent, non-traditional, persistent, and hard working . . . Hmmm. sounds like they would have been good as lawyers if they had taken that path as well.

You really just don't get it do you? You are a disgrace to the legal profession. You are profiting off the misery of the graduates that you trick into coming to your school..

This guy doesn't make that much. The profit is minimal. Actually 150k/yr is pitiful for a law school dean. I guess you don't need much money to live in the middle of nowhere. Then again he is selling a shoddy product and making six figures so it depends on how you look at it.

[MCL Law Dean]

Well that escalated quickly... I am interested in hearing more about how MCL serves a vital function in Monterey County. Earlier in the thread I believe you said a large proportion (you might have said over half?) of the bar association in the county were MCL lawyers, do you have a source for that? I know about 30 attorneys in the county and only one went to MCL (the majority went to Hastings which, despite the hell it receives on TLS, is an ABA school that still has a sterling reputation in Northern California).

I should have been more specific, about 30% of the Monterey County Bar Association (counted from their membership roster) are MCL alumni, including two of the three most recent Presidents. Although our main campus is in Monterey County, if you look at the broader region that includes Santa Cruz and San Benito Counties, my guess is that our graduates represent more like 15% of the total bar, not a majority by any means, but not bad for such a small program. Like all schools, the closer you get to home base, the alumni group increases. I think that you would find that Santa Clara University (in San Jose) has the largest law alumni group in the region. However, as you get into the more experienced (20+ year) lawyers, I would expect Hastings to be the dominant law degree. Many of these lawyers started their law careers in SFO and moved to Santa Cruz/Monterey area to have a non urban, non-BigLaw lifestyle and practice.

[MCL Law Dean]

This guy doesn't make that much. The profit is minimal. Actually 150k/yr is pitiful for a law school dean. I guess you don't need much money to live in the middle of nowhere. Then again he is selling a shoddy product and making six figures so it depends on how you look at it.

I think that you have the argument surrounded, either law school deans are blood sucking vampires earning $300-500K large running fraudulent national diploma mills or pitiful losers earning $150K small running scamming shoddy local programs. Somebody should tell somebody that this is going on. I know . . . Regulus would tell me DNFTT.

[BigZuck]

Did all of your awesome friends also graduate in the middle of the worst recession since the Great Depression with law school tuition rapidly outpacing inflation while having law schools lie to them about their employment prospects?

I hate to disrupt your rant, and I get the anger . . . but if you were following this post, you would see that in this regard I fully agree with you. I think my previous response about the law schools who were blatantly publishing false reports was "they should have gone to jail."

If you want realism wake the hell up... you are part of the problem... you're not helping any of the students that you are stealing money from. Get off your high horse and quit with the "you guys must not be trying hard enough" and "dream bigger" bullshit.

I forgive you if you are a 0L and haven't learned IRAC yet . . . 1L should be very rewarding for you. The issue from my standpoint is that the cost of legal education should be relative to the market it is serving. I think we actually agree on this point as well. In our (very limited) case, we provide legal education at a cost that is supported by the local/regional employment market. In our specific market, that also includes a number of non-traditional career options for recent grads as well as more seasoned professionals.

P.S. Regarding my "awesome friends", I think the sh##boomer rant is on another thread. These alternative career professionals worked hard through more than just one recession, are creative, intelligent, non-traditional, persistent, and hard working . . . Hmmm. sounds like they would have been good as lawyers if they had taken that path as well.

You really just don't get it do you? You are a disgrace to the legal profession. You are profiting off the misery of the graduates that you trick into coming to your school..

This guy doesn't make that much. The profit is minimal. Actually 150k/yr is pitiful for a law school dean. I guess you don't need much money to live in the middle of nowhere. Then again he is selling a shoddy product and making six figures so it depends on how you look at it.

Not sure if srs...

For some reason I thought you went to an uber prestigious public school in Northern CA (but maybe I'm confusing you with someone else). But Monterey isn't exactly the middle of "nowhere." Of course a place like Chular or Soledad definitely feels like nowheresville...

[BlueDiamond]

You really just don't get it do you? You are a disgrace to the legal profession. You are profiting off the misery of the graduates that you trick into coming to your school. Your argument is ridiculous. You really want to talk about costs and its relativity to the market that a school serves when you started a law school in a state that has 30+ law schools and has an unemployment rate around 9-10%? You are part of the problem... there is no way around that.

Also, I didn't know that unemployed could now be characterized as "non-traditional."

I noticed on your website that you are a Professor of International Law. How many of your students practice in that area after graduation?

For the record, I'm a 2L and if your wondering if I'm mad, bro, the answer is yes because I believe that you're an unethical scam artist.

Oh my, where to start. Kind of like answering the student on the back row who didn't do the reading, but has an opinion never-the-less. First, from previous discussion on this thread you would see that MCL is an accredited California law school (not unaccredited, in response to NYState). I won't go back over why that model works for us, but it is still there for your review. Second, we have served the central coast of California for 40+ years, so we didn't just "start-up". There have been quite a few ABA schools added since we were founded, but you need to take that argument to the ABA (and you won't find me disagreeing). Third, you appear to be responding to specific examples that I provided for actual JD graduates who selected non-traditional career options . . . so I guess that we agree that "unemployed" is actually "unemployed".

I taught International Law as a joint-class with the Naval PostGraduate School (in Monterey) that had a mix of law students and senior international military officers from about 15 countries. Many of the issues we discussed were directly on-point with things they were dealing with in their military career . . . law of war, human rights, Geneva Convention, piracy, military tribunals. The law students brought a theoretical legal perspective into a fascinating comparison of real-life scenarios in which the officers had confronted . . . frequently without any training or background in the underlying laws and treaties that were the basis of field policy. Theory meets reality . . . it was a great class.

Since you are looking at the MCL web site . . . you will also see that the Board of Trustees of our 501(c)3 nonprofit law school is made up of local judges, lawyers, educators, and community leaders. Their fiduciary responsibility (among other things) is to make sure that the dean of their law school is not an "unethical scam artist". The school has been overseen closely by this type of community board for all of its 40 years. Our current faculty includes local lawyers, superior court judges, and even Justices from our state appellate court . . . and I can assure you that they also keep a close watch on the program . . . and the dean.

Oh my, where to start. Kind of like answering the out-of-touch law school dean who stands at the front of the class thinking someone cares about the theoretical nonsense he or she is spewing. A theoretical perspective into a fascinating comparison of real-life scenarios the officers had confronted??? Gee golly ya don't say professor! That just sounds fantastic. Forget the tens of thousands of dollars I spent at MCL! I have an expanded theoretical perspective and food stamps!

I agree that it is great that a couple naval officers can now identify the substantive law that plays a role in their real-world experiences; but, what has this class done for, you know, the LAW STUDENTS who are looking for jobs? Placed anyone with Navy JAG, etc.? My guess is no, but you have not spoken to that.

It always cracks me up when people claim their 501(c)(3) status somehow makes what they are doing more ethical. I do, at a minimum, give the school credit for setting up as a nonprofit, rather than for-profit like Phoenix School of Law. However, its status as a tax-exempt charitable organization has no bearing on whether it is unethical for you to draw a salary of (or in excess of) 150K/year (assuming a previous poster was correct in saying that) while you charge students tuition knowing that many of them will either fail the bar exam or pass it and fail to find employment.

Bottom line... You're charging people tuition for a degree that you know will end up worthless for either a large minority or majority of MCL graduates. This is the real world professor. I'm fine with higher education being about finding oneself, broadening horizons, and exploring theoretical concepts (or insert whatever other broadly worded language is used to justify what is being taught here). However, at the end of the day, all of that is worthless to STUDENTS if it fails to lead to a job - no matter how lofty you and the rest of academia think the pursuit is.

[slawww]

I feel like it's a waste of energy trashing the Dean, and a waste of energy defending MCL, until there is actual real employment data to look at. Everyone's just speculating.

I feel like it's completely possible that since MCL has such a small class every year, the faculty is able to help the graduates hustle and find jobs through networking, since it seems they generally serve the surrounding area.

I feel like it's also possible that their employment numbers are awful, but we can't really know until we have that. I think that the hostility towards the Dean is a bit unwarranted, especially since the school isn't charging an astronomical amount for tuition, and the Dean has been pretty straightforward about the types of jobs one can expect coming out of MCL (no chance of biglaw, and other "prestigious" legal jobs).

[Rahviveh]

I feel like it's a waste of energy trashing the Dean, and a waste of energy defending MCL, until there is actual real employment data to look at. Everyone's just speculating.

I feel like it's completely possible that since MCL has such a small class every year, the faculty is able to help the graduates hustle and find jobs through networking, since it seems they generally serve the surrounding area.

I feel like it's also possible that their employment numbers are awful, but we can't really know until we have that. I think that the hostility towards the Dean is a bit unwarranted, especially since the school isn't charging an astronomical amount for tuition, and the Dean has been pretty straightforward about the types of jobs one can expect coming out of MCL (no chance of biglaw, and other "prestigious" legal jobs).

Its warranted because he made a thread falsifying information and tried to mislead veterans into attending unaccredited schools. Its obvious this guy has no moral compass. Anything make a quick buck.

but I agree there is no point in engaging with this kind of individual.

[slawww]

I feel like it's a waste of energy trashing the Dean, and a waste of energy defending MCL, until there is actual real employment data to look at. Everyone's just speculating.

I feel like it's completely possible that since MCL has such a small class every year, the faculty is able to help the graduates hustle and find jobs through networking, since it seems they generally serve the surrounding area.

I feel like it's also possible that their employment numbers are awful, but we can't really know until we have that. I think that the hostility towards the Dean is a bit unwarranted, especially since the school isn't charging an astronomical amount for tuition, and the Dean has been pretty straightforward about the types of jobs one can expect coming out of MCL (no chance of biglaw, and other "prestigious" legal jobs).

Its warranted because he made a thread falsifying information and tried to mislead veterans into attending unaccredited schools. Its obvious this guy has no moral compass. Anything make a quick buck.

but I agree there is no point in engaging with this kind of individual.

True, I missed the military benefits posts.

[timbs4339]

I feel like it's a waste of energy trashing the Dean, and a waste of energy defending MCL, until there is actual real employment data to look at. Everyone's just speculating.

I feel like it's completely possible that since MCL has such a small class every year, the faculty is able to help the graduates hustle and find jobs through networking, since it seems they generally serve the surrounding area.

I feel like it's also possible that their employment numbers are awful, but we can't really know until we have that. I think that the hostility towards the Dean is a bit unwarranted, especially since the school isn't charging an astronomical amount for tuition, and the Dean has been pretty straightforward about the types of jobs one can expect coming out of MCL (no chance of biglaw, and other "prestigious" legal jobs).

Right, you can't let perfect be the enemy of the good. MCL is a lot closer to what I think the ideal law school should look like than SCU, Southwestern, Pepperdine, Loyola and ESPECIALLY TJSL or Cal Western. And while it might be an objectively bad decision for some students to go to MCL, I can't say it would be life-ruinous if most of the students are PT, not taking on debt for living expenses, and paying some of the tuition cash.

As for bar passage, that's really a function of the student's inherent test-taking skills and intelligence. Not a lot the law school can do either way.

[vinnnyvincenzo]

I feel like it's a waste of energy trashing the Dean, and a waste of energy defending MCL, until there is actual real employment data to look at. Everyone's just speculating.

I feel like it's completely possible that since MCL has such a small class every year, the faculty is able to help the graduates hustle and find jobs through networking, since it seems they generally serve the surrounding area.

I feel like it's also possible that their employment numbers are awful, but we can't really know until we have that. I think that the hostility towards the Dean is a bit unwarranted, especially since the school isn't charging an astronomical amount for tuition, and the Dean has been pretty straightforward about the types of jobs one can expect coming out of MCL (no chance of biglaw, and other "prestigious" legal jobs).

Right, you can't let perfect be the enemy of the good. MCL is a lot closer to what I think the ideal law school should look like than SCU, Southwestern, Pepperdine, Loyola and ESPECIALLY TJSL or Cal Western. And while it might be an objectively bad decision for some students to go to MCL, I can't say it would be life-ruinous if most of the students are PT, not taking on debt for living expenses, and paying some of the tuition cash.

As for bar passage, that's really a function of the student's inherent test-taking skills and intelligence. Not a lot the law school can do either way.

They could not allow people who are probably not intellectually capable of succeeding on the bar pay $60k to find out after wasting 3 years that they are not intellectually capable of passing the bar.

[BlueDiamond]

I feel like it's a waste of energy trashing the Dean, and a waste of energy defending MCL, until there is actual real employment data to look at. Everyone's just speculating.

I feel like it's completely possible that since MCL has such a small class every year, the faculty is able to help the graduates hustle and find jobs through networking, since it seems they generally serve the surrounding area.

I feel like it's also possible that their employment numbers are awful, but we can't really know until we have that. I think that the hostility towards the Dean is a bit unwarranted, especially since the school isn't charging an astronomical amount for tuition, and the Dean has been pretty straightforward about the types of jobs one can expect coming out of MCL (no chance of biglaw, and other "prestigious" legal jobs).

Right, you can't let perfect be the enemy of the good. MCL is a lot closer to what I think the ideal law school should look like than SCU, Southwestern, Pepperdine, Loyola and ESPECIALLY TJSL or Cal Western. And while it might be an objectively bad decision for some students to go to MCL, I can't say it would be life-ruinous if most of the students are PT, not taking on debt for living expenses, and paying some of the tuition cash.

As for bar passage, that's really a function of the student's inherent test-taking skills and intelligence. Not a lot the law school can do either way.

That is exactly the point though. Schools like MCL and the others that you mentioned have such a low threshold for getting accepted that almost anybody that has finished a few college classes and registers for the LSAT can go to law school. It is those with the lowest levels of intelligence and inherently bad test-taking skills that are going to the schools that have the lowest standards (and yes, that is a generalization but there is at least some correlation between GPA/LSAT and intelligence). Many of these are schools which charge just as much or more than Tier 1 schools.

Schools that willingly and sometimes deceivingly recruit classes of students year after year knowing from their previous classes that only a small majority of those students have that inherent ability to pass the bar should either be closed or forced to use admission standards that show a general level of competence. The worst part is that, even after hiring fell off in 2008, more schools continued to open knowing that it would not be in the best interests of their students. It seems like this Dean's argument is my school was here first and sending graduates into this region first, so even if that isn't working anymore and our employment and bar passage stats are awful it isn't our fault and we shouldn't be the school that has to close.

And in response to the post about not having provided employment statistics - I actually see that as the biggest reason to scrutinize what this Dean is claiming. It is a law school. Its purpose is to educate future lawyers. If you can't tell me how many of those students actually go on to fulfill the role that you're educating them for then that is absolutely ridiculous. To me, it shows either knowing deception, a lack of caring what happens to students so long as you are fine, or both.

[MCL Law Dean]

Let's catch back up here. The general consensus here on TLS is that law school curriculum should be more relevant, not less. Therefore I think you completely miss the point regarding the value of an elective (or any other) course that brings black-letter law into relevant current applications. I think everyone who has, or is, currently attending law school would agree that more, not less, of this type of approach is needed. Even better if we can move it out of electives and into the core curriculum.

I agree that every law degree program should be held accountable for bar pass rates and employment results. As I previously commented in this thread, we have led the way for our category of law schools on reporting bar pass rates and intend to be the first of our group to collect and report employment information as well. You can conspiracy theory to your heart's content, but it will not change the fact that we have never been asked to collect or report on employment data as part of our accreditation . . . or by our applicants. BUT, I have already agreed that if we are going to be part of the national dialogue we need to get on board. Our data gathering process for employment data is underway and should be available this summer. I will be happy to report and discuss the results once they are available.

In reality, the previous poster's comment that our students get placed in the community by our faculty and alumni is absolutely correct. Isn't that exactly what a community-based law school program should do? I don't see why this is so difficult to believe. We don't have much in-migration of ABA graduates in regional market areas like ours . . . but isn't that exactly your point? With current ABA student loan debt, who could afford to be a lawyer in a small community for $50-60K?

We don't place students in JAG because they have a policy that specifically restricts employment to ABA law school graduates. I was curious about this several years ago and asked a colleague of mine who served as JAG . . . not in JAG, he was JAG of the Army. The policy is evidently decades old and precedes the existence of non-ABA state accredited law schools. Although he said that the original rule was intended as a qualification between accredited and unaccredited law schools, the fact that the only state accredited law schools are in California makes it unlikely that the rule will ever be changed.

The point of our 501(c)3 status is that the school has been directly overseen by a community board for the past 40 years. Your insistence that there is some nefarious ("fraudulent, unethical, falsifying, deception") agenda underway at our law school would have to presume four decades of active and intentional participation by our local judges, district attorney, and county counsel (among others) . . . not really a particularly plausible argument.

The fact that "some" students will fail the bar exam and "some" students will fail to find employment . . . is true, here and at every law school, including the elite HSY. How many is "too many" is a very valid policy question that I agree should be answered openly by every law school. However, postulating in the abstract that whatever it is must be inherently "fraudulent" or "unethical" is a baseless argument. Groups like lawschooltransparency.com are making real headway in providing comparisons that will help inform these decisions on a national basis. I agree that California accredited law schools should begin collecting and reporting similar information locally if we want to be taken more seriously.

[sublime]

..

[MCL Law Dean]

Code: Select all

We don't have to track employment data, but because we are small and serve a regional area (Monterey, Salinas, and Santa Cruz) we know where most of our graduates are working. At the current time, I am unaware of any graduate who is currently unemployed and in fact know of a couple of small firm openings that are currently unfilled.

If you want to get any clout in the "fuck the ABA law schools and their exorbitant tuition rates" area, you need to publish employment data so that others can take you seriously. Saying "well, we don't have to publish employment data, but I don't know anyone who is unemployed" doesn't really help prospective students much.

I think it's great that you've come here to introduce your law school, and the fact that you aren't charging $300k to attend is also good. But how difficult would it be to get in contact with your most recent graduating class and give them a phone poll? It would certainly go a very long way in terms of recruiting. Plus, if the employment rates are as rosy as you claim, then I don't see why people wouldn't put your college high up on the list over many T1 schools, assuming they want to work in the area. If even half of your graduates get jobs as lawyers, you're already doing better than most accredited law schools anyway.

As it stands, it's difficult to take you seriously if you can only provide half the required information to make an informed decision.

+1 to that. I can understand trying to keep costs down, but you are still adhering to the ABA's single biggest flaw for perspective students by not having any real data to back up your employment claims. Every dean I have talked to is "not aware of any unemployed graduates" even when only half of their grads actually have jobs. Somehow they only got to know the employed half.

This is Dean Winick from Monterey College of Law . . . reporting back as promised. After the earlier TLS discussion regarding objective employment data, MCL conducted an alumni employment survey. In all seriousness, thank you to TLS posters for the push. Although MCL is not required to do this type of survey under the State Bar of California accreditation rules, I have been meaning to do one and the TLS comments motivated me to move it up to the the top of my "to-do" list this summer.

We sent out 319 e-mail surveys to alumni using SurveyMonkey and used the NALP survey questions as a starting point (with a few modifications to better reflect the type of jobs in our community). We received 155 responses during the first three weeks of July which represents a 48.6% overall return rate, better than average for this type of survey. Most important, we had almost a 60% return rate for alumni from the most recent graduating classes (2008 - 2013).

Of course, similar to all surveys of this type, we most likely received a higher response from graduates who are doing well in traditional jobs vs. those who are lost and wandering. However, for comparison purposes, the ABA employment surveys suffer from the same issue, so it should still provide an apples-to-apples comparison. We solicited responses from graduates from 1976 to 2013. However, since the obvious concern on TLS is regarding the most recent classes, I am providing an initial summary of alumni responses from 2008 to the present:

Monterey College of Law Alumni Survey - Graduating Classes from 2008-2013
Total Survey N = 155/Subtotal in this group = 65

Employed at Graduation ............................... 81.50%
Employed 9 Months after Graduation ........... 92.30%
Employed Currently ...................................... 96.90%
Retired/Not Working by Choice .................... 3.10%

JD Required ................................................. 72.60%
JD Advantageous ......................................... 14.50%
Professional - Non-JD ................................. 12.90%
Non-Professional ........................................ 0.00%

Type of Employment
Public Attorney (DA, PD, Judge, City, etc.) ... 12.31%
Private Practice ........................................... 56.92%
Academic ................................................... 3.08%
Non-Profit .................................................. 1.54%
In-House .................................................... 1.54%
Non-Law .................................................... 24.62%

For those practicing law: Job Category
Full Time (Partner/Associate) ...................... 77.00%
Full Time (Contract Attorney) ...................... 8.20%
Part Time .................................................... 14.80%

Size of Firm
Solo ............................................................ 22.20%
2-10 Attorneys ........................................... 60.00%
11-25 Attorneys ......................................... 11.10%
26-50 Attorneys ......................................... 2.20%
51+ Attorneys ............................................ 4.40%

[Cicero76]

Code: Select all

We don't have to track employment data, but because we are small and serve a regional area (Monterey, Salinas, and Santa Cruz) we know where most of our graduates are working. At the current time, I am unaware of any graduate who is currently unemployed and in fact know of a couple of small firm openings that are currently unfilled.

If you want to get any clout in the "fuck the ABA law schools and their exorbitant tuition rates" area, you need to publish employment data so that others can take you seriously. Saying "well, we don't have to publish employment data, but I don't know anyone who is unemployed" doesn't really help prospective students much.

I think it's great that you've come here to introduce your law school, and the fact that you aren't charging $300k to attend is also good. But how difficult would it be to get in contact with your most recent graduating class and give them a phone poll? It would certainly go a very long way in terms of recruiting. Plus, if the employment rates are as rosy as you claim, then I don't see why people wouldn't put your college high up on the list over many T1 schools, assuming they want to work in the area. If even half of your graduates get jobs as lawyers, you're already doing better than most accredited law schools anyway.

As it stands, it's difficult to take you seriously if you can only provide half the required information to make an informed decision.

+1 to that. I can understand trying to keep costs down, but you are still adhering to the ABA's single biggest flaw for perspective students by not having any real data to back up your employment claims. Every dean I have talked to is "not aware of any unemployed graduates" even when only half of their grads actually have jobs. Somehow they only got to know the employed half.

This is Dean Winick from Monterey College of Law . . . reporting back as promised. After the earlier TLS discussion regarding objective employment data, MCL conducted an alumni employment survey. In all seriousness, thank you to TLS posters for the push. Although MCL is not required to do this type of survey under the State Bar of California accreditation rules, I have been meaning to do one and the TLS comments motivated me to move it up to the the top of my "to-do" list this summer.

We sent out 319 e-mail surveys to alumni using SurveyMonkey and used the NALP survey questions as a starting point (with a few modifications to better reflect the type of jobs in our community). We received 155 responses during the first three weeks of July which represents a 48.6% overall return rate, better than average for this type of survey. Most important, we had almost a 60% return rate for alumni from the most recent graduating classes (2008 - 2013).

Of course, similar to all surveys of this type, we most likely received a higher response from graduates who are doing well in traditional jobs vs. those who are lost and wandering. However, for comparison purposes, the ABA employment surveys suffer from the same issue, so it should still provide an apples-to-apples comparison. We solicited responses from graduates from 1976 to 2013. However, since the obvious concern on TLS is regarding the most recent classes, I am providing an initial summary of alumni responses from 2008 to the present:

Monterey College of Law Alumni Survey - Graduating Classes from 2008-2013
Total Survey N = 155/Subtotal in this group = 65

Employed at Graduation ............................... 81.50%
Employed 9 Months after Graduation ........... 92.30%
Employed Currently ...................................... 96.90%
Retired/Not Working by Choice .................... 3.10%

JD Required ................................................. 72.60%
JD Advantageous ......................................... 14.50%
Professional - Non-JD ................................. 12.90%
Non-Professional ........................................ 0.00%

Type of Employment
Public Attorney (DA, PD, Judge, City, etc.) ... 12.31%
Private Practice ........................................... 56.92%
Academic ................................................... 3.08%
Non-Profit .................................................. 1.54%
In-House .................................................... 1.54%
Non-Law .................................................... 24.62%

For those practicing law: Job Category
Full Time (Partner/Associate) ...................... 77.00%
Full Time (Contract Attorney) ...................... 8.20%
Part Time .................................................... 14.80%

Size of Firm
Solo ............................................................ 22.20%
2-10 Attorneys ........................................... 60.00%
11-25 Attorneys ......................................... 11.10%
26-50 Attorneys ......................................... 2.20%
51+ Attorneys ............................................ 4.40%

Assuming this is honest, thank you for making at least a modicum of effort. You could do better--half is not an acceptable response rate for determining employment, so you should be calling your grads rather than sending an easily-ignored email--but this is more honest, detailed, and useful than half of the crap put out by ABA accredited schools, so props for that.

[guano]

I'm curious how you selected the 319 alumni you contacted

[MCL Law Dean]

I'm curious how you selected the 319 alumni you contacted

No mystery and no actual "selection". These are all of the e-mails in our current alumni data base that are "current" (out of appx. 750 total alumni since 1976). Of course we have more mailing addresses, particularly for the older alumni, but we only circulated an e-mail survey.

[guano]

I'm curious how you selected the 319 alumni you contacted

No mystery and no actual "selection". These are all of the e-mails in our current alumni data base that are "current" (out of appx. 750 total alumni since 1976). Of course we have more mailing addresses, particularly for the older alumni, but we only circulated an e-mail survey.

That's fair.

[cinephile]

I'd agree there could be some benefit from a state-only accredited school for people with "alternative" goals. But those needs could be better fulfilled by a school like People's College of Law, where tuition is only 4k a year. that's reasonable. Anything more than that isn't.

[MCL Law Dean]

Assuming this is honest, thank you for making at least a modicum of effort. You could do better--half is not an acceptable response rate for determining employment, so you should be calling your grads rather than sending an easily-ignored email--but this is more honest, detailed, and useful than half of the crap put out by ABA accredited schools, so props for that.

We will just have to disagree on the standards of alumni surveying. A 60% response rate for the reported results is higher than many of the ABA alumni survey samples. In a previous (ABA) Asst. Dean position I was in charge of alumni surveys for a large law alumni organization and I can tell you from that professional experience that, unfortunately, telephone surveying of lawyers is the MOST ineffective (and frustrating) methodology available. About 95% of lawyers only provide their work phone numbers and they make every effort to NOT take solicitation calls at work . . . even from their law school. Leaving messages on voice mail gets about a 10% response rate.

Of course we will continue to collect data over the next few weeks. Although the numbers will change some, I do not anticipate that there will be changes significant enough to influence potential students.

[MCL Law Dean]

I'd agree there could be some benefit from a state-only accredited school for people with "alternative" goals. But those needs could be better fulfilled by a school like People's College of Law, where tuition is only 4k a year. that's reasonable. Anything more than that isn't.

One might argue that continuing to pursue the fictional six-figure BigLaw jobs as a graduate of any but a few of the elite law schools is a better definition of "alternate" goals than a successful career as a non-urban community lawyer coming out of law school with little or no debt. If you happen to work/live in downtown LA, People's College of Law might meet your needs. There is a lot of validity to their philosophy.