More Difficult if Applying Straight from Undergrad?

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LeeHyori
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More Difficult if Applying Straight from Undergrad?

Postby LeeHyori » Mon Apr 01, 2013 8:51 pm

Dear TLS,

I am wondering how much more difficult it is to get into law school directly out of undergraduate studies. I notice that for many schools, the % of students straight from undergraduate is very low (sometimes single digits). For some other law schools, particularly NYU, the class profile is around 30%.

I've read Q&As from LS deans stating that the closer you are to your undergrad degree, the more your GPA will probably be weighted (since there aren't WE factors, etc.). With that in mind, is it significantly harder to get into a law school directly out of undergrad? In NYU's case, how hard is it to be part of that 30% that comes directly from UG?

Thanks!

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jselson
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Re: More Difficult if Applying Straight from Undergrad?

Postby jselson » Mon Apr 01, 2013 9:04 pm

It doesn't matter how much harder it is, you should get the work experience before anyway so that you'll see what the real world's like and so you'll be better prepared and more attractive to employers after law school.

PRgradBYU
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Re: More Difficult if Applying Straight from Undergrad?

Postby PRgradBYU » Mon Apr 01, 2013 11:40 pm

jselson wrote:It doesn't matter how much harder it is, you should get the work experience before anyway so that you'll see what the real world's like and so you'll be better prepared and more attractive to employers after law school.


TITCR.

futureesqperhaps
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Re: More Difficult if Applying Straight from Undergrad?

Postby futureesqperhaps » Tue Apr 02, 2013 3:22 am

The consensus on TLS is that as long as you have the numbers, you aren't at a significant disadvantage, if at all.

And while I don't disagree with the previous posters, I must add that apart from perhaps a personal advantage, having work experience doesn't necessarily enhance an application if you already have the numbers to begin with. Simply put, if you have the numbers and no work experience, you stand a good chance of getting in. If you don't have the numbers to begin with but have amazing work experience, you aren't going to get in.

-Fellow K-JD

Edit: For NYU, you should be in good shape if you have the numbers.

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IAFG
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Re: More Difficult if Applying Straight from Undergrad?

Postby IAFG » Tue Apr 02, 2013 3:29 am

futureesqperhaps wrote:And while I don't disagree with the previous posters, I must add that apart from perhaps a personal advantage, having work experience doesn't necessarily enhance an application if you already have the numbers to begin with.

It enhances your application for legal jobs. Do you really want your first "real" job to be your SA, aka an 8-12 week job interview?

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bizzybone1313
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Re: More Difficult if Applying Straight from Undergrad?

Postby bizzybone1313 » Tue Apr 02, 2013 3:32 am

Taking time off after undergrad is one of the biggest mistakes I have ever made. If your goal is to be attorney, go for it. At the most, take only one year or two off. You are just wasting time and costing yourself $$$ by not pursuing the legal route. This is all assumes you are going to attend an elite law school. If you are going to attend a TTT, then don't attend at all.

futureesqperhaps
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Re: More Difficult if Applying Straight from Undergrad?

Postby futureesqperhaps » Tue Apr 02, 2013 3:53 am

IAFG wrote:
futureesqperhaps wrote:And while I don't disagree with the previous posters, I must add that apart from perhaps a personal advantage, having work experience doesn't necessarily enhance an application if you already have the numbers to begin with.

It enhances your application for legal jobs. Do you really want your first "real" job to be your SA, aka an 8-12 week job interview?


Says who? OP didn't specify much, but not many employers are inclined to hire somebody who just graduated undergrad with a liberal arts degree. If he can get an analyst position at a bulge-bracket (or the like), by all means go for it. But with a liberal arts degree, the best he could do is probably some type of office job doing clerical work. Will this make the OP more attractive to future employers after law school? You be the judge of that

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IAFG
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Re: More Difficult if Applying Straight from Undergrad?

Postby IAFG » Tue Apr 02, 2013 3:54 am

futureesqperhaps wrote:
IAFG wrote:
futureesqperhaps wrote:And while I don't disagree with the previous posters, I must add that apart from perhaps a personal advantage, having work experience doesn't necessarily enhance an application if you already have the numbers to begin with.

It enhances your application for legal jobs. Do you really want your first "real" job to be your SA, aka an 8-12 week job interview?


Says who? OP didn't specify much, but not many employers are inclined to hire somebody who just graduated undergrad with a liberal arts degree. If he can get an analyst position at a bulge-bracket (or the like), by all means go for it. But with a liberal arts degree, the best he could do is probably some type of office job doing clerical work. Will this make the OP more attractive to future employers after law school? You be the judge of that

I'm not the judge of that, biglaw recruiters are, and IMO and IME they do like work experience, even just clerical work.

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togepi
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Re: More Difficult if Applying Straight from Undergrad?

Postby togepi » Tue Apr 02, 2013 3:55 am

jselson wrote:It doesn't matter how much harder it is, you should get the work experience before anyway so that you'll see what the real world's like and so you'll be better prepared and more attractive to employers after law school.


Does this also apply to non-legal jobs? (as far as attractiveness goes)

futureesqperhaps
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Re: More Difficult if Applying Straight from Undergrad?

Postby futureesqperhaps » Tue Apr 02, 2013 4:00 am

IAFG wrote:
futureesqperhaps wrote:
IAFG wrote:
futureesqperhaps wrote:And while I don't disagree with the previous posters, I must add that apart from perhaps a personal advantage, having work experience doesn't necessarily enhance an application if you already have the numbers to begin with.

It enhances your application for legal jobs. Do you really want your first "real" job to be your SA, aka an 8-12 week job interview?


Says who? OP didn't specify much, but not many employers are inclined to hire somebody who just graduated undergrad with a liberal arts degree. If he can get an analyst position at a bulge-bracket (or the like), by all means go for it. But with a liberal arts degree, the best he could do is probably some type of office job doing clerical work. Will this make the OP more attractive to future employers after law school? You be the judge of that

I'm not the judge of that, biglaw recruiters are, and IMO and IME they do like work experience, even just clerical work.


Or, they might assume that you graduated, didn't know what to do for a couple years, and chose law school as a last option (like many do). Law seems to be your passion, and I say go for it.

But we've detracted considerably from the original question. :lol:

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John_rizzy_rawls
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Re: More Difficult if Applying Straight from Undergrad?

Postby John_rizzy_rawls » Tue Apr 02, 2013 4:08 am

futureesqperhaps wrote:Or, they might assume that you graduated, didn't know what to do for a couple years, and chose law school as a last option (like many do). Law seems to be your passion, and I say go for it.

But we've detracted considerably from the original question. :lol:


You're a K-JD 0L with zero experience in legal hiring and an irrational penchant for prestige without thought to cost and debt.

Stop giving people shitty know-nothing advice. It's idiotic and irresponsible.

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IAFG
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Re: More Difficult if Applying Straight from Undergrad?

Postby IAFG » Tue Apr 02, 2013 4:09 am

futureesqperhaps wrote:
Or, they might assume that you graduated, didn't know what to do for a couple years, and chose law school as a last option (like many do). Law seems to be your passion, and I say go for it.

Oh, okay, if you're right then people who just worked a couple years will have worse employment outcomes and the T14 with a special focus on bringing in people with a couple years of WE will have less impressive stats compared to its peers. Let's check out LST and see how your theory performs.

futureesqperhaps
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Re: More Difficult if Applying Straight from Undergrad?

Postby futureesqperhaps » Tue Apr 02, 2013 4:15 am

John_rizzy_rawls wrote:
futureesqperhaps wrote:Or, they might assume that you graduated, didn't know what to do for a couple years, and chose law school as a last option (like many do). Law seems to be your passion, and I say go for it.

But we've detracted considerably from the original question. :lol:


You're a K-JD 0L with zero experience in legal hiring and an irrational penchant for prestige without thought to cost and debt.

Stop giving people shitty know-nothing advice. It's idiotic and irresponsible.


Ah, ad hominem at its finest. Why don't you actually make a stake about my claim, instead of merely labeling me?

futureesqperhaps
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Re: More Difficult if Applying Straight from Undergrad?

Postby futureesqperhaps » Tue Apr 02, 2013 4:20 am

IAFG wrote:
futureesqperhaps wrote:
Or, they might assume that you graduated, didn't know what to do for a couple years, and chose law school as a last option (like many do). Law seems to be your passion, and I say go for it.

Oh, okay, if you're right then people who just worked a couple years will have worse employment outcomes and the T14 with a special focus on bringing in people with a couple years of WE will have less impressive stats compared to its peers. Let's check out LST and see how your theory performs.


Too many confounding variables to deal with. And don't get me wrong, I'm not saying work experience in that sense is a detriment to applications for legal work. I'm saying that it may or may not help.

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IAFG
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Re: More Difficult if Applying Straight from Undergrad?

Postby IAFG » Tue Apr 02, 2013 4:49 am

futureesqperhaps wrote:
IAFG wrote:
futureesqperhaps wrote:
Or, they might assume that you graduated, didn't know what to do for a couple years, and chose law school as a last option (like many do). Law seems to be your passion, and I say go for it.

Oh, okay, if you're right then people who just worked a couple years will have worse employment outcomes and the T14 with a special focus on bringing in people with a couple years of WE will have less impressive stats compared to its peers. Let's check out LST and see how your theory performs.


Too many confounding variables to deal with. And don't get me wrong, I'm not saying work experience in that sense is a detriment to applications for legal work. I'm saying that it may or may not help.

And I am saying it definitely does help and few people who know what they are talking about dispute it.

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heywatchitbuddy
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Re: More Difficult if Applying Straight from Undergrad?

Postby heywatchitbuddy » Tue Apr 02, 2013 3:00 pm

I don't get the do a few years of work experience before law school thing if you're like a lot of top law school applicants with a high GPA in a relatively unmarketable major and you actually want to be a lawyer. Especially for those who aren't from a rich northeast family and don't have connections to some job like banking, it seems like a waste of time to dick around making 50k in some job that you don't want to pursue as a career instead of just going to law school.

rad lulz
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Re: More Difficult if Applying Straight from Undergrad?

Postby rad lulz » Tue Apr 02, 2013 3:03 pm

heywatchitbuddy wrote:I don't get the do a few years of work experience before law school thing if you're like a lot of top law school applicants with a high GPA in a relatively unmarketable major and you actually want to be a lawyer. Especially for those who aren't from a rich northeast family and don't have connections to some job like banking, it seems like a waste of time to dick around making 50k in some job that you don't want to pursue as a career instead of just going to law school.

Yeah because saving money and improving your resume and partying are all dumb ideas

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RemyMarathe
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Re: More Difficult if Applying Straight from Undergrad?

Postby RemyMarathe » Tue Apr 02, 2013 3:21 pm

+1 to Rad, and all those emphasizing the edge you get for job interviews w/ WE

If you work in law in any position, you might discover you hate law/the lifestyle it entails. Then you can avoid taking on crippling debt only to find you hate the law. Or, realize that you like it, but it might not be the intellectual odessey that it's cracked up to be, but even so, you get to do work that brings regular enough satisfaction. Even outside of law jobs, working gives you realistic expectations for what the working world's like, and just how great studying is relative to the 9-5 grind (I realize that last point's hardly universal).

There's also a lot of unavoidable mistakes you make at your first "real" job. It makes sense to get some of those taken care of before you're saddled with debt and the stakes are higher.

vinnnyvincenzo
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Re: More Difficult if Applying Straight from Undergrad?

Postby vinnnyvincenzo » Tue Apr 02, 2013 3:33 pm

RemyMarathe wrote:+1 to Rad, and all those emphasizing the edge you get for job interviews w/ WE

If you work in law in any position, you might discover you hate law/the lifestyle it entails. Then you can avoid taking on crippling debt only to find you hate the law. Or, realize that you like it, but it might not be the intellectual odessey that it's cracked up to be, but even so, you get to do work that brings regular enough satisfaction. Even outside of law jobs, working gives you realistic expectations for what the working world's like, and just how great studying is relative to the 9-5 grind (I realize that last point's hardly universal).

There's also a lot of unavoidable mistakes you make at your first "real" job. It makes sense to get some of those taken care of before you're saddled with debt and the stakes are higher.


Couldnt agree more with your bolded points. I think learning how to interact in a professional environment is also important so you're not a jackass during a SA.

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Dr. Dre
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Re: More Difficult if Applying Straight from Undergrad?

Postby Dr. Dre » Tue Apr 02, 2013 4:34 pm

Dr. Dre wrote:
DocHawkeye wrote: One year isn't enough to do anything meaningful anyhow - adding a crap entry-level job to your resume isn't going to impress anyone. Many of you classmates will be K-JD's just like you and nobody will care.

WaltWhite
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Re: More Difficult if Applying Straight from Undergrad?

Postby WaltWhite » Wed Apr 03, 2013 6:19 pm

Dr. Dre wrote:
Dr. Dre wrote:
DocHawkeye wrote: One year isn't enough to do anything meaningful anyhow - adding a crap entry-level job to your resume isn't going to impress anyone. Many of you classmates will be K-JD's just like you and nobody will care.



As someone who's taking a year, uh, no.
I'm taking a year to (a) retake the LSAT in June once I graduate and do not have to worry about working 3 part-time jobs and some bullshit 17-hour semester, (b) work at a non-legal job to save up money, and (c) to avoid burning out during 1L after working 60-hour weeks for the last 4 years.

I'd say that's meaningful enough to me.

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cinephile
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Re: More Difficult if Applying Straight from Undergrad?

Postby cinephile » Wed Apr 03, 2013 6:27 pm

You have your whole career to be a lawyer, you only have this time now to experiment and try different things out before you get yourself indebted. Do something you can't see yourself doing in the long run, just for the experience. Travel. Grow.




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