Attn 3Ls & new grads: Is JDUnderground Representative of All

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guano
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Re: Attn 3Ls & new grads: Is JDUnderground Representative of All

Postby guano » Thu Mar 21, 2013 6:08 pm

Quick math. If there are approximately 25k jobs for new lawyers, and 45k students graduating from law schools, how many have a bad outcome?

To be generous, factor in an oversized number who go into legitimate non law jobs or otherwise opt out and it's still a scary percentage.

Now figure that proportionally T14s do far better that T1/T2, which do far better than TTTs and you can get an idea.

But, we're not even taking into account such pesky considerations as costs. Of those 25k jobs, probably less than half pay 6 figures ( can someone get hard numbers here), but most of those grads will have 6 figure debt, with a huge chunk coming in closer to a quarter million.

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CO2016YEAH
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Re: Attn 3Ls & new grads: Is JDUnderground Representative of All

Postby CO2016YEAH » Thu Mar 21, 2013 6:13 pm

bowser wrote:To the above poster who was talking about trying to distinguish from other professions:

Yep, agree. The things that are hard to calculate as a comparison are:

(1) the debt--likely to be much, much more crippling with Law school
(2) the degree to which the law as a profession is so screwed up and different from anything else. (e.g. if you graduate now from a decent school with an engineering degree, there's a very good chance you might graduate without a job lined up---I'd bet the chances are higher that a freshly minted engineering student graduates jobless than a T-14 JD grad does the same, as horrible as the legal market is. BUT, the engineering student should, with persistence, be able to land something with long-term prospects in the foreseeable future. Is that true for law students, or is there a very good chance that JD was a huge waste of time? If so, what makes it so?)


Well, I have said before that if my employment prospects are so dismal that I start out doing pro bono DUIs and divorces I'll be content with that. So I guess I have reasonable expectations. My primary concern is that I'll be able to feed and support myself and my child. But I have a background as such that I'll be able to frame houses or sell cars to make ends meet while practicing law on the side, if need be.

But in reality, I strongly feel like I've been groomed and have been grooming myself for law my whole life, so I believe I will be successful. If it's not 160k big law or bust out of school I'm ok with that. I can build a career from scratch if need be.

Ok. I just needed some other perspectives after reading the filth over there.

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thesealocust
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Re: Attn 3Ls & new grads: Is JDUnderground Representative of All

Postby thesealocust » Thu Mar 21, 2013 7:04 pm

guano wrote:Quick math. If there are approximately 25k jobs for new lawyers, and 45k students graduating from law schools, how many have a bad outcome?

To be generous, factor in an oversized number who go into legitimate non law jobs or otherwise opt out and it's still a scary percentage.

Now figure that proportionally T14s do far better that T1/T2, which do far better than TTTs and you can get an idea.

But, we're not even taking into account such pesky considerations as costs. Of those 25k jobs, probably less than half pay 6 figures ( can someone get hard numbers here), but most of those grads will have 6 figure debt, with a huge chunk coming in closer to a quarter million.


I did a lot of number crunching years ago - so things have certainly changed - to come up with this:

50,000 start law school
45,000 graduate
30,000 entry level legal jobs of all stripes according to bureau of labor statistics estiamtes
5,000 or so obvious, traditional big law jobs (i.e. summer associate hiring, 6-figure paying, easily identifiable jobs).

Roughly half of those traditional big law jobs went to graduates of T14 schools, the rest to the other ~180 law schools in the country.

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star fox
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Re: Attn 3Ls & new grads: Is JDUnderground Representative of All

Postby star fox » Thu Mar 21, 2013 8:18 pm

CO2016YEAH wrote:
bowser wrote:To the above poster who was talking about trying to distinguish from other professions:

Yep, agree. The things that are hard to calculate as a comparison are:

(1) the debt--likely to be much, much more crippling with Law school
(2) the degree to which the law as a profession is so screwed up and different from anything else. (e.g. if you graduate now from a decent school with an engineering degree, there's a very good chance you might graduate without a job lined up---I'd bet the chances are higher that a freshly minted engineering student graduates jobless than a T-14 JD grad does the same, as horrible as the legal market is. BUT, the engineering student should, with persistence, be able to land something with long-term prospects in the foreseeable future. Is that true for law students, or is there a very good chance that JD was a huge waste of time? If so, what makes it so?)


Well, I have said before that if my employment prospects are so dismal that I start out doing pro bono DUIs and divorces I'll be content with that. So I guess I have reasonable expectations. My primary concern is that I'll be able to feed and support myself and my child. But I have a background as such that I'll be able to frame houses or sell cars to make ends meet while practicing law on the side, if need be.

But in reality, I strongly feel like I've been groomed and have been grooming myself for law my whole life, so I believe I will be successful. If it's not 160k big law or bust out of school I'm ok with that. I can build a career from scratch if need be.

Ok. I just needed some other perspectives after reading the filth over there.


If I'm selling used cars and doing pro bono legal work on the side it probably won't be too long before I just stopped doing the side legal work that wasn't making me money and concentrate on doing the thing that at least ensures I'm going to eat. The prospect of "building up a practice from scratch" seems a bit optimistic given the over-saturation of law school graduates. I guess if your personal satisfaction requires you to not feel like you completely wasted your time/money by going to law school you'll keep doing some legal stuff (keeping up appearances probably has a lot to do with this too.. who really wants to explain to some aunt they barely see how even though you spent three years in Law School you're not actually a lawyer) but most people probably just hang it up at some point when they see how futile their situation is.

lawsthetics
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Re: Attn 3Ls & new grads: Is JDUnderground Representative of All

Postby lawsthetics » Fri Mar 22, 2013 1:55 am

CO2016YEAH wrote:
Well, I have said before that if my employment prospects are so dismal that I start out doing pro bono DUIs and divorces I'll be content with that. So I guess I have reasonable expectations. My primary concern is that I'll be able to feed and support myself and my child. But I have a background as such that I'll be able to frame houses or sell cars to make ends meet while practicing law on the side, if need be.

But in reality, I strongly feel like I've been groomed and have been grooming myself for law my whole life, so I believe I will be successful. If it's not 160k big law or bust out of school I'm ok with that. I can build a career from scratch if need be.

Ok. I just needed some other perspectives after reading the filth over there.


Are you in a T14?
Are you in a strong regional on a free ride?

If the answer to the two questions above is a no, then no matter which site you are on the advice is the same:

Don't ruin your life.

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CO2016YEAH
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Re: Attn 3Ls & new grads: Is JDUnderground Representative of All

Postby CO2016YEAH » Fri Mar 22, 2013 2:54 am

lawsthetics wrote:
CO2016YEAH wrote:
Well, I have said before that if my employment prospects are so dismal that I start out doing pro bono DUIs and divorces I'll be content with that. So I guess I have reasonable expectations. My primary concern is that I'll be able to feed and support myself and my child. But I have a background as such that I'll be able to frame houses or sell cars to make ends meet while practicing law on the side, if need be.

But in reality, I strongly feel like I've been groomed and have been grooming myself for law my whole life, so I believe I will be successful. If it's not 160k big law or bust out of school I'm ok with that. I can build a career from scratch if need be.

Ok. I just needed some other perspectives after reading the filth over there.


Are you in a T14?
Are you in a strong regional on a free ride?

If the answer to the two questions above is a no, then no matter which site you are on the advice is the same:

Don't ruin your life.


I like your advice and encouragement, and I'm going to do the retake in June to see what I can muster up. But I do already have at least 400 hours in LSAT prep under my belt. Having said that, I am less risk averse than most, and I have contingency plans. I'm thinking $15k/yr tuition at a good regional is palatable. I'll make it work during and afterwards because I'll have to. The sig-o will pony up to help make ends meet in the meantime. Attitude determines altitude. I got this.

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reasonable_man
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Re: Attn 3Ls & new grads: Is JDUnderground Representative of All

Postby reasonable_man » Fri Mar 22, 2013 8:29 am

My two-cents on JDU and TLS as a poster on both sites since 2008:

I graduated from what can be classified as a true “third-tier-toilet” or TTT if you will back in 2008. I enrolled in that TTT in 2005, back when the economy was great and people got pretty good jobs in most fields, including law. Even back then, there was some under-current of skepticism about lower ranked law schools, which I accepted as a reality and took action during law school to mitigate. I worked several legal jobs (both summers and while in school) and ultimately got an offer after my second summer to work for a mid-sized firm after LS. By the time 2008 (graduation) rolled around, the economy was tanking and those that were less proactive in my graduating class were punished dearly for not doing what I had done (i.e. I was only top third but had a ton of experience - during the school year and summers vs. many classmates who had top grades but no experience or similarly mediocre grades like mine, but also with no real experience).

When I left LS in 2008, I was earning way more than many of my fellow TTT graduates with a 65Kish starting salary. This obviously lead to a lot of anger amongst graduates and I think that is probably when JDU really took off and gained notoriety. I signed up for JDU in probably the fall of 2008, after I graduated, and initially came onto TLS to try and act as sort of a balance for all of the pie-eyed optimism that ran rampant on here back then. Since then, things have changed, and I post less and less on here now because mostly, what I have to say about law school selection is sort of irrelevant (redundant really), thanks to the transparency movement, etc. which has gained real attention on here.

I stopped posting regularly on JDU long before I stopped posting on TLS because it was so damn negative. I recently started looking at and posting on both sites again mostly out of boredom, but also because I have something to contribute to new lawyers and can offer advice on how to get a career up and running and how to handle being a lawyer generally (because there is sort of a shortage of that sort of advice). I am (not to be conceited), the example of a TTT success story insofar as while I do not work for a major firm, I have since joined a very strong and well established small firm in NYC several years ago and have developed a very strong practice for myself – and actually earn a nice living working pretty close to 45 hours a week. I freely share my insights on how to try and make that happen – but also share the fact that making that happen from a lower ranked school is a mixture of excruciating hard work and luck.

I believe that the truth about the legal profession is this: There is a club. It is the practicing lawyer (non-biglaw) club. If you make it into biglaw – you have your own club and life is generally good (unless you get laid off). But the practicing lawyer (non-biglaw) club only accepts members that graduated no more than about 10 months ago. If you miss it you dont get in - ever. If you get into the club (by virtue of working at a somewhat respectable small or mid-sized firm) and gain experience for a few years and really bust your ass, you can scratch out a pretty nice living and nice career and can even jump to other firms and jobs. If you do not get into that club, if you miss the boat, and are relegated to doing doc-review or worse yet, working in really awful sweat shop type PI mills, etc., there is no club for you. You are “the disappeared ones” – the ones no one wants to think about. It’s an ugly life – a terrible and unfair reailty – to know that because you did not get into “the club” you have little to no chance to make a real career for yourself.

The number of people that do not get into the club gets a little bigger each year and more and more people know of friends or former classmates that missed getting into “the club.” And a lot of what is posted on TLS is posted by the people that missed entry into “the club” or those like me, that know of way too many personal acquaintances that failed to gain admission to “the club.”

I think that for better than 50% of of all LS graduates, there will be entry into the club (number can be higher or lower depending on LS). But that also leaves a lot of people that will not get into the club and, frankly, that is a sad and dark reality. That reality generates a lot of emotion, a lot of hate for LS administration (who are mostly ambivalent to this reality so long as it is not impacting their bottom line) and for the profession in general.

The other side of the negativity on TLS comes from the members of the club speaking on their own behalf because working as an attorney is not always easy. It can be very stressful and at times, when you look at the salary v. time commitment and stress level, you start to wonder – why the hell didn’t I just become a cop or something like that (not down-playing cops – I have cops in my family and it’s a hard job), but when you realize that you are working 60 hours to earn $15K more than what someone else is earning by working 38 hours, it can be a bit disenchanting.

The bottom line is that I love my job and refuse to complain, but I also understand the complaints lodged on JDU and the concerns/anger on that site is often warranted. At the very least, it serves as a warning to anyone entering the field as to how bad things can be and the reality that luck plays some role in all of this (not that luck is the major determining factor – but to pretend it isn’t a factor is sort of naive).
Last edited by reasonable_man on Fri Mar 22, 2013 10:40 am, edited 1 time in total.

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CO2016YEAH
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Re: Attn 3Ls & new grads: Is JDUnderground Representative of All

Postby CO2016YEAH » Fri Mar 22, 2013 10:13 am

Now that sounds like a very balanced, medication-not-necessary, response. Thank you for that and for the tips!


reasonable_man wrote:My two-cents on JDU and TLS as a poster on both sites since 2008:

I graduated from what can be classified as a true “third-tier-toilet” or TTT if you will back in 2008. I enrolled in that TTT in 2005, back when the economy was great and people got pretty good jobs in most fields, including law. Even back then, there was some under-current of skepticism about lower ranked law schools, which I accepted as a reality and took action during law school to mitigate. I worked several legal jobs (both summers and while in school) and ultimately got an offer after my second summer to work for a mid-sized firm after LS. By the time 2008 (graduation) rolled around, the economy was tanking and those that were less proactive in my graduating class were punished dearly for not doing what I had done (i.e. I was only top third but had a ton of experience - during the school year and summers vs. many classmates who had top grades but no experience or similarly mediocre grades like mine, but also with no real experience).

When I left LS in 2008, I was earning way more than many of my fellow TTT graduates with a 65Kish starting salary. This obviously lead to a lot of anger amongst graduates and I think that is probably when JDU really took off and gained notoriety. I signed up for JDU in probably the fall of 2008, after I graduated, and initially came onto TLS to try and act as sort of a balance for all of the pie-eyed optimism that ran rampant on here back then. Since then, things have changed, and I post less and less on here now because mostly, what I have to say about law school selection is sort of irrelevant (redundant really), thanks to the transparency movement, etc. which has gained real attention on here.

I stopped posting regularly on JDU long before I stopped posting on TLS because it was so damn negative. I recently started looking at and posting on both sites again mostly out of boredom, but also because I have something to contribute to new lawyers and can offer advice on how to get a career up and running and how to handle being a lawyer generally (because there is sort of a shortage of that sort of advice). I am (not to be conceited), the example of a TTT success story insofar as while I do not work for a major firm, I have since joined a very strong and well established small firm in NYC several years ago and have developed a very strong practice for myself – and actually earn a nice living working pretty close to 45 hours a week. I freely share my insights on how to try and make that happen – but also share the fact that making that happen from a lower ranked school is a mixture of excruciating hard work and luck.

I believe that the truth about the legal profession is this: There is a club. It is the practicing lawyer (non-biglaw) club. If you make it into biglaw – you have your own club and life is generally good (unless you get laid off). But the practicing lawyer (non-biglaw) club accepts members that graduated no more than about 10 ago. If you get into the club (by virtue of working at a somewhat respectable small or mid-sized firm) and gain experience for a few years and really bust your ass, you can scratch out a pretty nice living and nice career. If you do not get into that club, if you miss the boat, and are relegated to doing doc-review or worse yet, working in really awful sweat shop type PI mills, etc., there is no club for you. You are “the disappeared ones” – the ones no one wants to think about. It’s an ugly life – a terrible and unfair reailty – to know that because you did not get into “the club” you have little to no chance to make a real career for yourself.

The number of people that do not get into the club gets a little bigger each year and more and more people know of friends or former classmates that missed getting into “the club.” And a lot of what is posted on TLS is posted by the people that missed entry into “the club” or those like me, that know of way too many personal acquaintances that failed to gain admission to “the club.”

I think that for better than 50% of of all LS graduates, there will be entry into the club (number can be higher or lower depending on LS). But that also leaves a lot of people that will not get into the club and, frankly, that is a sad and dark reality. That reality generates a lot of emotion, a lot of hate for LS administration (who are mostly ambivalent to this reality so long as it is not impacting their bottom line) and for the profession in general.

The other side of the negativity on TLS comes from the members of the club speaking on their own behalf because working as an attorney is not always easy. It can be very stressful and at times, when you look at the salary v. time commitment and stress level, you start to wonder – why the hell didn’t I just become a cop or something like that (not down-playing cops – I have cops in my family and it’s a hard job), but when you realize that you are working 60 hours to earn $15K more than what someone else is earning by working 38 hours, it can be a bit disenchanting.

The bottom line is that I love my job and refuse to complain, but I also understand the complaints lodged on JDU and the concerns/anger on that site is often warranted. At the very least, it serves as a warning to anyone entering the field as to how bad things can be and the reality that luck plays some role in all of this (not that luck is the major determining factor – but to pretend it isn’t a factor is sort of naive).

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reasonable_man
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Re: Attn 3Ls & new grads: Is JDUnderground Representative of All

Postby reasonable_man » Fri Mar 22, 2013 12:46 pm

I realized that what I wrote above had some errors (reference to TLS when it should have been to JDU). Sorry - banged that out sort of quickly this morning with no coffee. So here:

My two-cents on JDU and TLS as a poster on both sites since 2008:

I graduated from what can be classified as a true “third-tier-toilet” or TTT if you will back in 2008. I enrolled in that TTT in 2005, back when the economy was great and people got pretty good jobs in most fields, including law. Even back then, there was some under-current of skepticism about lower ranked law schools, which I accepted as a reality and took action during law school to mitigate. I worked several legal jobs (both summers and while in school) and ultimately got an offer after my second summer to work for a mid-sized firm after LS. By the time 2008 (graduation) rolled around, the economy was tanking and those that were less proactive in my graduating class were punished dearly for not doing what I had done (i.e. I was only top third but had a ton of experience - during the school year and summers vs. many classmates who had top grades but no experience or similarly mediocre grades like mine, but also with no real experience).

When I left LS in 2008, I was earning way more than many of my fellow TTT graduates with a 65Kish starting salary. This obviously lead to a lot of anger amongst graduates and I think that is probably when JDU really took off and gained notoriety. I signed up for JDU in probably the fall of 2008, after I graduated, and initially came onto TLS to try and act as sort of a balance for all of the pie-eyed optimism that ran rampant on here back then. Since then, things have changed, and I post less and less on here now because mostly, what I have to say about law school selection is sort of irrelevant (redundant really), thanks to the transparency movement, etc. which has gained real attention on here.

I stopped posting regularly on JDU long before I stopped posting on TLS because it was so damn negative. I recently started looking at and posting on both sites again mostly out of boredom, but also because I have something to contribute to new lawyers and can offer advice on how to get a career up and running and how to handle being a lawyer generally (because there is sort of a shortage of that sort of advice). I am (not to be conceited), the example of a TTT success story insofar as while I do not work for a major firm, I have since joined a very strong and well established small firm in NYC several years ago and have developed a very strong practice for myself – and actually earn a nice living working pretty close to 45 hours a week. I freely share my insights on how to try and make that happen – but also share the fact that making that happen from a lower ranked school is a mixture of excruciating hard work and luck.

I believe that the truth about the legal profession is this: There is a club. It is the practicing lawyer (non-biglaw) club. If you make it into biglaw – you have your own club and life is generally good (unless you get laid off). But the practicing lawyer (non-biglaw) club only accepts members that graduated no more than about 10 months ago. If you miss it you dont get in - ever. If you get into the club (by virtue of working at a somewhat respectable small or mid-sized firm) and gain experience for a few years and really bust your ass, you can scratch out a pretty nice living and nice career and can even jump to other firms and jobs. If you do not get into that club, if you miss the boat, and are relegated to doing doc-review or worse yet, working in really awful sweat shop type PI mills, etc., there is no club for you. You are “the disappeared ones” – the ones no one wants to think about. It’s an ugly life – a terrible and unfair reailty – to know that because you did not get into “the club” you have little to no chance to make a real career for yourself.

The number of people that do not get into the club gets a little bigger each year and more and more people know of friends or former classmates that missed getting into “the club.” And a lot of what is posted on JDU is posted by the people that missed entry into “the club” or those like me, that know of way too many personal acquaintances that failed to gain admission to “the club.”

I think that for better than 50% of of all LS graduates, there will be entry into the club (number can be higher or lower depending on LS). But that also leaves a lot of people that will not get into the club and, frankly, that is a sad and dark reality. That reality generates a lot of emotion, a lot of hate for LS administration on JDU (who are mostly ambivalent to this reality so long as it is not impacting their bottom line) and for the profession in general.

The other source of the negativity on JDU comes from the members of the club speaking on their own behalf because working as an attorney is not always easy. It can be very stressful and at times, when you look at the salary v. time commitment and stress level, you start to wonder – why the hell didn’t I just become a cop or something like that (not down-playing cops – I have cops in my family and it’s a hard job), but when you realize that you are working 60 hours to earn $15K more than what someone else is earning by working 38 hours, it can be a bit disenchanting.

The bottom line is that I love my job and refuse to complain, but I also understand the complaints lodged on JDU and the concerns/anger on that site is often warranted. At the very least, it serves as a warning to anyone entering the field as to how bad things can be and the reality that luck plays some role in all of this (not that luck is the major determining factor – but to pretend it isn’t a factor is sort of naive).

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CFprez
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Re: Attn 3Ls & new grads: Is JDUnderground Representative of All

Postby CFprez » Fri Mar 22, 2013 4:21 pm

reasonable_man

Thanks for your great post and the insight it offered- unless you had told me I wouldn't have even known it was written coffee free haha.

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Re: Attn 3Ls & new grads: Is JDUnderground Representative of All

Postby Opie » Sat Mar 23, 2013 11:40 am

bowser wrote:To the above poster who was talking about trying to distinguish from other professions:

Yep, agree. The things that are hard to calculate as a comparison are:

(1) the debt--likely to be much, much more crippling with Law school
(2) the degree to which the law as a profession is so screwed up and different from anything else. (e.g. if you graduate now from a decent school with an engineering degree, there's a very good chance you might graduate without a job lined up---I'd bet the chances are higher that a freshly minted engineering student graduates jobless than a T-14 JD grad does the same, as horrible as the legal market is. BUT, the engineering student should, with persistence, be able to land something with long-term prospects in the foreseeable future. Is that true for law students, or is there a very good chance that JD was a huge waste of time? If so, what makes it so?)


Good point. For other professions, it's not the end of the world to not have a job out of school. Those professions realize that the economy is not great, and that it takes time. The way the legal profession works though, employers want to see that you had two good summers of work and then hire you before you even have your license. If that doesn't happen. There's a decent chance you may never find a job with a firm because your resume will always have big flashing letters on it that say "I was one of the ones who didn't get picked."

I think the reason for this is the competitive nature of the legal profession. Accountants, Architects, Engineers... There is a top out for that. The best your financial statements can be is 100% correct, with no errors. There's only so structurally sound a building can be. Not so with lawyers. There's no such thing as a lawyer who is "good enough." People want the best, because they expect the other side to have the best. Not getting hired out of school makes it show that you weren't the best. Granted, it's likely that nobody in your class is the best, but employers want to feel like they're getting the best they can get, or at least as good as everyone else is getting.

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Re: Attn 3Ls & new grads: Is JDUnderground Representative of All

Postby reasonable_man » Sat Mar 23, 2013 11:56 am

Opie wrote:
bowser wrote:To the above poster who was talking about trying to distinguish from other professions:

Yep, agree. The things that are hard to calculate as a comparison are:

(1) the debt--likely to be much, much more crippling with Law school
(2) the degree to which the law as a profession is so screwed up and different from anything else. (e.g. if you graduate now from a decent school with an engineering degree, there's a very good chance you might graduate without a job lined up---I'd bet the chances are higher that a freshly minted engineering student graduates jobless than a T-14 JD grad does the same, as horrible as the legal market is. BUT, the engineering student should, with persistence, be able to land something with long-term prospects in the foreseeable future. Is that true for law students, or is there a very good chance that JD was a huge waste of time? If so, what makes it so?)


Good point. For other professions, it's not the end of the world to not have a job out of school. Those professions realize that the economy is not great, and that it takes time. The way the legal profession works though, employers want to see that you had two good summers of work and then hire you before you even have your license. If that doesn't happen. There's a decent chance you may never find a job with a firm because your resume will always have big flashing letters on it that say "I was one of the ones who didn't get picked."

I think the reason for this is the competitive nature of the legal profession. Accountants, Architects, Engineers... There is a top out for that. The best your financial statements can be is 100% correct, with no errors. There's only so structurally sound a building can be. Not so with lawyers. There's no such thing as a lawyer who is "good enough." People want the best, because they expect the other side to have the best. Not getting hired out of school makes it show that you weren't the best. Granted, it's likely that nobody in your class is the best, but employers want to feel like they're getting the best they can get, or at least as good as everyone else is getting.



This is sort of my point from above about "getting into the club" whereby if you graduate and do not have a job fairly close to graduation - it simply may never happen. This is a harsh reality of the legal profession.

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reasonable_man
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Re: Attn 3Ls & new grads: Is JDUnderground Representative of All

Postby reasonable_man » Sat Mar 23, 2013 11:57 am

CFprez wrote:reasonable_man

Thanks for your great post and the insight it offered- unless you had told me I wouldn't have even known it was written coffee free haha.



Full disclosure - I did have a bagel. :D

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Re: Attn 3Ls & new grads: Is JDUnderground Representative of All

Postby romothesavior » Sat Mar 23, 2013 12:03 pm

Lord Randolph McDuff wrote:Trick is that everyone's desired outcome is different. Your split is probably correct for T-14 and lower T1.

People have different goals going into law school. The perfect employment score would be able to determine the percentage of recent graduates who got the sort of job they wanted when they enrolled in law school. I think there are T1 and T2 schools that would score pretty well in this calculation.

I agree with you, but undeniably the vast, vast majority of people go to law school to be lawyers. Certainly some don't, and some people decide to go other routes despite having a really good shot at a legal job. It's why even the top schools only hit 90%+ on the LST employment score. But while the LST score isn't perfect, and I know for a fact that people wind up in objectively good outcomes and aren't captured by LST, it's still the best metric there is or ever has been for law school jobs data. It's not like a school with a 50-60% LST score will have 80% "good outcomes" by adding in the happy non-lawyer people.

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romothesavior
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Re: Attn 3Ls & new grads: Is JDUnderground Representative of All

Postby romothesavior » Sat Mar 23, 2013 12:04 pm

Also, great, great post RM.

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Opie
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Re: Attn 3Ls & new grads: Is JDUnderground Representative of All

Postby Opie » Sat Mar 23, 2013 12:30 pm

reasonable_man wrote:
Opie wrote:
bowser wrote:To the above poster who was talking about trying to distinguish from other professions:

Yep, agree. The things that are hard to calculate as a comparison are:

(1) the debt--likely to be much, much more crippling with Law school
(2) the degree to which the law as a profession is so screwed up and different from anything else. (e.g. if you graduate now from a decent school with an engineering degree, there's a very good chance you might graduate without a job lined up---I'd bet the chances are higher that a freshly minted engineering student graduates jobless than a T-14 JD grad does the same, as horrible as the legal market is. BUT, the engineering student should, with persistence, be able to land something with long-term prospects in the foreseeable future. Is that true for law students, or is there a very good chance that JD was a huge waste of time? If so, what makes it so?)


Good point. For other professions, it's not the end of the world to not have a job out of school. Those professions realize that the economy is not great, and that it takes time. The way the legal profession works though, employers want to see that you had two good summers of work and then hire you before you even have your license. If that doesn't happen. There's a decent chance you may never find a job with a firm because your resume will always have big flashing letters on it that say "I was one of the ones who didn't get picked."

I think the reason for this is the competitive nature of the legal profession. Accountants, Architects, Engineers... There is a top out for that. The best your financial statements can be is 100% correct, with no errors. There's only so structurally sound a building can be. Not so with lawyers. There's no such thing as a lawyer who is "good enough." People want the best, because they expect the other side to have the best. Not getting hired out of school makes it show that you weren't the best. Granted, it's likely that nobody in your class is the best, but employers want to feel like they're getting the best they can get, or at least as good as everyone else is getting.



This is sort of my point from above about "getting into the club" whereby if you graduate and do not have a job fairly close to graduation - it simply may never happen. This is a harsh reality of the legal profession.


Your point about the club is totally true. I was fortunate that I knew about this before coming to law school because I had ten years in the business world and grew up around other professions with similar clubs (my grandfather was an insurance salesman and then a realtor, and I followed him everywhere as a kid). I started networking with lawyers before I even started law school (fortunately I already lived where I was going to school), and I got on every committee that I could and I go to every networking event now that I am in law school. Fortunately, I have a job already and am working with one of the most connected lawyers in the area (he's a former county attorney and in his seventies). I am really worried about a LOT of my friends though. They don't even think about who they know or what they're going to do this summer. Nobody at the third tier school I go to will get a true big-law job, but most do get into the club. More people need to realize the importance of this.

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Re: Attn 3Ls & new grads: Is JDUnderground Representative of All

Postby Black-Blue » Sun Mar 24, 2013 12:02 pm

bizzybone1313 wrote:I think a lot of the guys and gals on JDU went to lower-ranked schools, but you have some T-20 grads mixed in there as well.

You would think that JDU represents the "lower tier" of the law field, but this is only partially true. JDU also has biglaw or ex-biglaw members, patent lawyers, in-house, people with over 200k salaries, etc.

What I'm getting at is that JDU represents the misery of the profession and this misery is not limited to any particular tier of JDs.

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Re: Attn 3Ls & new grads: Is JDUnderground Representative of All

Postby washdc23 » Sun Mar 24, 2013 3:46 pm

I post on JDU and went to UCLA School of Law.

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Re: Attn 3Ls & new grads: Is JDUnderground Representative of All

Postby timbs4339 » Sun Mar 24, 2013 7:01 pm

When I was a 0L (back in the ancient days of 2008- I still remember reasonable_man dispensing wisdom) JDU seemed like a refuge for NYC area TTT students. You gave it the same weight you gave most anonymous forums, which is to say you tried to divine excuses for why these people were so angry. They must have gotten bottom of the barrel grades, were too picky in their job search, were socially awkward and didn't interview well, or something else. It didn't help that many scambloggers seemed unhinged, and I remember them launching "attacks" on TLS where they'd megapost random, barely-coherent walls of text to wake everyone up.

You really have to go through law school to internalize what they're saying, which is part of the problem because you only really get one shot. Un- and under-employment is a systemic problem in this profession, six-figures of debt is scary, no, a JD is not useful in another field, and law school deans and professors really don't give a fuck about what happens to you unless it starts affecting the bottom line. JDU posters are outliers in the sense that they are online, but their outcomes are not rare. I know plenty of people who have never heard of JDU who are in the same high-debt, no job boat.

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Re: Attn 3Ls & new grads: Is JDUnderground Representative of All

Postby reasonable_man » Mon Mar 25, 2013 8:34 am

timbs4339 wrote:When I was a 0L (back in the ancient days of 2008- I still remember reasonable_man dispensing wisdom) JDU seemed like a refuge for NYC area TTT students. You gave it the same weight you gave most anonymous forums, which is to say you tried to divine excuses for why these people were so angry. They must have gotten bottom of the barrel grades, were too picky in their job search, were socially awkward and didn't interview well, or something else. It didn't help that many scambloggers seemed unhinged, and I remember them launching "attacks" on TLS where they'd megapost random, barely-coherent walls of text to wake everyone up.

You really have to go through law school to internalize what they're saying, which is part of the problem because you only really get one shot. Un- and under-employment is a systemic problem in this profession, six-figures of debt is scary, no, a JD is not useful in another field, and law school deans and professors really don't give a fuck about what happens to you unless it starts affecting the bottom line. JDU posters are outliers in the sense that they are online, but their outcomes are not rare. I know plenty of people who have never heard of JDU who are in the same high-debt, no job boat.



Lots of truth here. I too know of many failed-lawyers who are not JDU posters (they are too sad or depressed to even know about JDU). Its not like you automatically get a password and a login name when you are unemployed for more than 18 months. Most of the people that fail at law do not want to talk about it and you will seldom, if ever, catch them spreading the word about how their situation.

I actually found TLS during one of those "attacks” you speak of back in 2008. I joined because I thought that posting tirades of insanity on TLS was far less useful than simply telling it like it is and trying to be balanced about the whole thing.

The funny thing about law is that I actually enjoy my job. Which is part of the reason why I refuse to completely launch an all-out assault on the profession. It is just a really hard way to earn a living and when I look back on the YEARS of sacrifice (much more than what many of my friends endured in other lines of work), I realize that negative aspects of the profession are sort of awful and is coming from one of the few that actually “made it.”

On JDU, there are many posters that “made it” – but similarly realize that a) their outcome is unique; and/or b) the profession itself is very tough (even when you are doing well). To say that all posters on JDU are the misanthropes, the “crazies” and the ones that “failed” misses the point of what JDU is all about. Again, I’m not a big JDU proponent, but it serves a purpose and to ignore it or write it off as the musings of the outliers or whack-jobs is unfair and unrealistic

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Re: Attn 3Ls & new grads: Is JDUnderground Representative of All

Postby rad lulz » Mon Mar 25, 2013 8:50 am

timbs4339 wrote:When I was a 0L (back in the ancient days of 2008- I still remember reasonable_man dispensing wisdom) JDU seemed like a refuge for NYC area TTT students. You gave it the same weight you gave most anonymous forums, which is to say you tried to divine excuses for why these people were so angry. They must have gotten bottom of the barrel grades, were too picky in their job search, were socially awkward and didn't interview well, or something else. It didn't help that many scambloggers seemed unhinged, and I remember them launching "attacks" on TLS where they'd megapost random, barely-coherent walls of text to wake everyone up.

You really have to go through law school to internalize what they're saying, which is part of the problem because you only really get one shot. Un- and under-employment is a systemic problem in this profession, six-figures of debt is scary, no, a JD is not useful in another field, and law school deans and professors really don't give a fuck about what happens to you unless it starts affecting the bottom line. JDU posters are outliers in the sense that they are online, but their outcomes are not rare. I know plenty of people who have never heard of JDU who are in the same high-debt, no job boat.

I remember reading JDU stuff and being like "ok, so I won't go to a NYC TTT. This doesn't happen at MY T17 skool." Then I saw the stats LST was putting out, and it does.




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