Is it worth it to go to law school ever?

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bracq24
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Is it worth it to go to law school ever?

Postby bracq24 » Wed Feb 27, 2013 6:18 pm

Was a long-time ITLSS reader, have read Campos' book, Tamanaha's book etc. Sad to see Campos' blog is closing down now. Anyway, my question is honestly is it ever worth it to go to law school today or is it just a completely insane decision? I'm thinking long-term here. Obviously there are a handful of schools (basically only T-14 and even some of them are barely worth it) that can give someone a reasonable chance of initial employment. But, as I think awareness spreads and there is less of a shame factor out there, I see and hear from an increasingly large amount of people who have all the credentials (T-6 school, clerkship, big law job) who get laid off from their big law job and that's it. They can't get another job and are basically finished as a lawyer and can't find any other employment. Even if they are lucky enough to have paid off their debt, it seems as if the decision to go to law school has basically ruined their chances at any other job. It sounds terribly depressing. So, my question is, is going to law school ever worth it? I think it's basically a given that the T-14 schools are the only ones that are worth it in terms of employment outcomes short term.Thinking about it long-term, most people who can get into a T-14 school could secure at least reasonably decent employment (maybe not six figures, but enough to get by) outside the law school profession. So, I guess this is more just opening up a question for a debate but do you think it is ever worth it to go to law school?

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ManOfTheMinute
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Re: Is it worth it to go to law school ever?

Postby ManOfTheMinute » Wed Feb 27, 2013 6:20 pm

Idea: ask a forum of law school students or law school student wanna be if its ever a good idea to go to law school.

Please go away and never return. Damn trolls.

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cinephile
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Re: Is it worth it to go to law school ever?

Postby cinephile » Wed Feb 27, 2013 6:21 pm

Sure. A close personal friend of mine got a full ride to Chicago plus a 10k/year living stipend. For her, it seems like a good idea to go to law school.

Lord Randolph McDuff
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Re: Is it worth it to go to law school ever?

Postby Lord Randolph McDuff » Wed Feb 27, 2013 6:23 pm

Yeah. Or if you, like, just wanted to be a lawyer.

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Davidbentley
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Re: Is it worth it to go to law school ever?

Postby Davidbentley » Wed Feb 27, 2013 6:31 pm

ManOfTheMinute wrote:Idea: ask a forum of law school students or law school student wanna be if its ever a good idea to go to law school.

Please go away and never return. Damn trolls.

I like your avatar because I feel the scorn when you post this. But, when you post nice things, it makes me think you would be a considerate lover.

Image

bracq24
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Re: Is it worth it to go to law school ever?

Postby bracq24 » Wed Feb 27, 2013 7:24 pm

Not a troll. I think it's a completely legitimate question to ask, particularly in a forum like this. I'd advise you to read this post on ITLSS from earlier in the week if you have not already: --LinkRemoved--

It's an incredibly difficult market out there. While the users on TLS are way more informed than the average person/law applicant, I still think people here have an overly rosy outlook on what it's like.

rebexness
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Re: Is it worth it to go to law school ever?

Postby rebexness » Wed Feb 27, 2013 7:27 pm

bracq24 wrote:
It's an incredibly difficult market out there. While the users on TLS are way more informed than the average person/law applicant, I still think people here have an overly rosy outlook on what it's like.


Lolno.

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Nelson
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Re: Is it worth it to go to law school ever?

Postby Nelson » Wed Feb 27, 2013 7:33 pm

Paul, is that you? Couldn't just shut the ol' blog down?

Real Madrid
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Re: Is it worth it to go to law school ever?

Postby Real Madrid » Wed Feb 27, 2013 7:35 pm

bracq24 wrote:
It's an incredibly difficult market out there. While the users on TLS are way more informed than the average person/law applicant, I still think people here have an overly rosy outlook on what it's like.


LOL

bracq24
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Re: Is it worth it to go to law school ever?

Postby bracq24 » Wed Feb 27, 2013 7:42 pm

Haha, well look that title of the thread is meant to be provocative. But seriously, Campos always brought up an important point: what happens to the "winners" who go to a T-14 school, and get Big Law? Where are they 5 years down the line? 10 years down the line? I think an oversight or area of too little coverage on TLS is that there is not enough conversation here around what happens to attorneys 5-10 years down the line if they get Big Law at the outset. Realistically speaking a minuscule percentage will make partner and a similarly small percentage will get to stay on as "of counsel." In-house counsel and government jobs are ridiculously competitive and there is a glut of lawyers out there with crazy credentials, so what happens to the vast majority of these people? And in light of this question, does it really make sense to go to law school, even if someone gets into a T-14 or T-6 with money or even HYS? It's a serious question, intended not as a troll but to create some dialogue around this issue. And I do believe that TLS has an overly-rosy outlook on this issue. People assume T-14 with money and certainly T-6 basically ensures you will be employable for the rest of your career. I do not believe it is nearly that clearcut these days.

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Rahviveh
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Re: Is it worth it to go to law school ever?

Postby Rahviveh » Wed Feb 27, 2013 7:44 pm

bracq24 wrote:Haha, well look that title of the thread is meant to be provocative. But seriously, Campos always brought up an important point: what happens to the "winners" who go to a T-14 school, and get Big Law? Where are they 5 years down the line? 10 years down the line? I think an oversight or area of too little coverage on TLS is that there is not enough conversation here around what happens to attorneys 5-10 years down the line if they get Big Law at the outset. Realistically speaking a minuscule percentage will make partner and a similarly small percentage will get to stay on as "of counsel." In-house counsel and government jobs are ridiculously competitive and there is a glut of lawyers out there with crazy credentials, so what happens to the vast majority of these people? And in light of this question, does it really make sense to go to law school, even if someone gets into a T-14 or T-6 with money or even HYS? It's a serious question, intended not as a troll but to create some dialogue around this issue. And I do believe that TLS has an overly-rosy outlook on this issue. People assume T-14 with money and certainly T-6 basically ensures you will be employable for the rest of your career. I do not believe it is nearly that clearcut these days.


I just mentioned this in another thread. There's not enough practicing lawyers on TLS who can speak on this with authority. But rayiner has some good posts about post-biglaw options if you use the search function, and even a breakdown of how many in-house jobs there are.

Also I disagree with the bolded. It feels like increasingly in the last year or so the attitude here is that you get biglaw for 3 years and burn out and then who knows what happens after.

bracq24
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Re: Is it worth it to go to law school ever?

Postby bracq24 » Wed Feb 27, 2013 7:49 pm

ChampagnePapi wrote:
bracq24 wrote:Haha, well look that title of the thread is meant to be provocative. But seriously, Campos always brought up an important point: what happens to the "winners" who go to a T-14 school, and get Big Law? Where are they 5 years down the line? 10 years down the line? I think an oversight or area of too little coverage on TLS is that there is not enough conversation here around what happens to attorneys 5-10 years down the line if they get Big Law at the outset. Realistically speaking a minuscule percentage will make partner and a similarly small percentage will get to stay on as "of counsel." In-house counsel and government jobs are ridiculously competitive and there is a glut of lawyers out there with crazy credentials, so what happens to the vast majority of these people? And in light of this question, does it really make sense to go to law school, even if someone gets into a T-14 or T-6 with money or even HYS? It's a serious question, intended not as a troll but to create some dialogue around this issue. And I do believe that TLS has an overly-rosy outlook on this issue. People assume T-14 with money and certainly T-6 basically ensures you will be employable for the rest of your career. I do not believe it is nearly that clearcut these days.


I just mentioned this in another thread. There's not enough practicing lawyers on TLS who can speak on this with authority. But rayiner has some good posts about post-biglaw options if you use the search function, and even a breakdown of how many in-house jobs there are.

Also I disagree with the bolded. It feels like increasingly in the last year or so the attitude here is that you get biglaw for 3 years and burn out and then who knows what happens after.


Does that not then suggest that perhaps, even for those who get BigLaw, law school might not be worth it other than for the insanely small sliver who end up with a long-term positive career outcome?

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Tiago Splitter
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Re: Is it worth it to go to law school ever?

Postby Tiago Splitter » Wed Feb 27, 2013 9:35 pm

bracq24 wrote: I see and hear from an increasingly large amount of people who have all the credentials (T-6 school, clerkship, big law job) who get laid off from their big law job and that's it. They can't get another job and are basically finished as a lawyer and can't find any other employment.


You really see and hear from large amounts of these people? Or are you referring to the people Campos talks about in this passage:

bracq24 wrote:Not a troll. I think it's a completely legitimate question to ask, particularly in a forum like this. I'd advise you to read this post on ITLSS from earlier in the week if you have not already: --LinkRemoved--

Because these people did not follow the path you describe.

bracq24
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Re: Is it worth it to go to law school ever?

Postby bracq24 » Wed Feb 27, 2013 11:17 pm

Fair enough point there

bracq24
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Re: Is it worth it to go to law school ever?

Postby bracq24 » Wed Feb 27, 2013 11:18 pm

I guess, perhaps, the larger issue that really troubles me is the absolute lack of knowledge about what happens to lawyers after those 3-5 years of Big Law at best.

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bk1
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Re: Is it worth it to go to law school ever?

Postby bk1 » Wed Feb 27, 2013 11:30 pm

OP, why are you alting?

I'm going to say that the responses here seem out of proportion. While OP's question is indeed hyperbolic and a bit dumb (of course there are instances where it is worth), the first response was even more stupid.

Not only that, TLS is actually quite rosy compared to other critics of law school (see Campos, xoxohth, ATL, etc). People jumping down OP's throat for saying that TLS paints a rosy picture are just misinformed. Yes, TLS is rosier, maybe even far rosier, than other sites. My belief is that TLS paints the closest picture to reality, but I could be wrong. It indeed could be as bad as the others say and it's foolish to think that's not even possible.

As for the actual question, it's hard to say. OP is right that getting shown the door of biglaw can be disastrous and career ending, but my suspicion is that that is not the norm. The problem is that we don't have a ton of data on what happens when people leave biglaw, whether voluntarily or involuntarily.

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Aawaldrop
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Re: Is it worth it to go to law school ever?

Postby Aawaldrop » Wed Feb 27, 2013 11:33 pm

Do you want to be a lawyer?
Also, how do you personally define worth?

ajr
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Re: Is it worth it to go to law school ever?

Postby ajr » Wed Feb 27, 2013 11:47 pm

Of course it's not worth going to law school. There is a very small (if any) chance of success.
Oh, and by the same token, it's not worth going to college, why even to middle school. The best course of action is to drop out after primary school and minimize your losses. Take up that recession proof (lol) job at McD and live a happy life.
All the best.

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bizzybone1313
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Re: Is it worth it to go to law school ever?

Postby bizzybone1313 » Thu Feb 28, 2013 12:05 am

bracq24 wrote:Not a troll. I think it's a completely legitimate question to ask, particularly in a forum like this. I'd advise you to read this post on ITLSS from earlier in the week if you have not already: --LinkRemoved--

It's an incredibly difficult market out there. While the users on TLS are way more informed than the average person/law applicant, I still think people here have an overly rosy outlook on what it's like.


OP's thread is a good one. I get anxiety everyday over me wanting to attend law school. I am going to apply in the fall. I might just apply to Harvard, Stanford and Columbia. If I do not get in, I might not attend at all. I am seriously starting to question if the T-10 are worth it based on the article that is linked in the quote from Inside the Law School Scam. With the undergrad I hold, I could easily make $100K within 5-10 years and pull this type of income every year for the next 30. However, I have always wanted to be a lawyer, so I need to give this path a go first.

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Aawaldrop
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Re: Is it worth it to go to law school ever?

Postby Aawaldrop » Thu Feb 28, 2013 12:11 am

bizzybone1313 wrote:
bracq24 wrote:Not a troll. I think it's a completely legitimate question to ask, particularly in a forum like this. I'd advise you to read this post on ITLSS from earlier in the week if you have not already: --LinkRemoved--

It's an incredibly difficult market out there. While the users on TLS are way more informed than the average person/law applicant, I still think people here have an overly rosy outlook on what it's like.


OP's thread is a good one. I get anxiety everyday over me wanting to attend law school. I am going to apply in the fall. I might just apply to Harvard, Stanford and Columbia. If I do not get in, I might not attend at all. I am seriously starting to question if the T-10 are worth it based on the article that is linked in the quote from Inside the Law School Scam. With the undergrad I hold, I could easily make $100K within 5-10 years and pull this type of income every year for the next 30. However, I have always wanted to be a lawyer, so I need to give this path a go first.


'Giving it a go' is most likely at least a 5 year commitment. Also, a JD may close as many doors as it opens (especially with a 3 year gap).

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bizzybone1313
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Re: Is it worth it to go to law school ever?

Postby bizzybone1313 » Thu Feb 28, 2013 12:13 am

Aawaldrop wrote:
bizzybone1313 wrote:
bracq24 wrote:Not a troll. I think it's a completely legitimate question to ask, particularly in a forum like this. I'd advise you to read this post on ITLSS from earlier in the week if you have not already: --LinkRemoved--

It's an incredibly difficult market out there. While the users on TLS are way more informed than the average person/law applicant, I still think people here have an overly rosy outlook on what it's like.


OP's thread is a good one. I get anxiety everyday over me wanting to attend law school. I am going to apply in the fall. I might just apply to Harvard, Stanford and Columbia. If I do not get in, I might not attend at all. I am seriously starting to question if the T-10 are worth it based on the article that is linked in the quote from Inside the Law School Scam. With the undergrad I hold, I could easily make $100K within 5-10 years and pull this type of income every year for the next 30. However, I have always wanted to be a lawyer, so I need to give this path a go first.


'Giving it a go' is most likely at least a 5 year commitment. Also, a JD may close as many doors as it opens (especially with a 3 year gap).


I meant giving it a go in terms of the LSAT. If I score real well, I will attend. If I do not, I will figure something else out.

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Gunnar Stahl
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Re: Is it worth it to go to law school ever?

Postby Gunnar Stahl » Thu Feb 28, 2013 12:16 am

bizzybone1313 wrote:
Aawaldrop wrote:
bizzybone1313 wrote:
bracq24 wrote:Not a troll. I think it's a completely legitimate question to ask, particularly in a forum like this. I'd advise you to read this post on ITLSS from earlier in the week if you have not already: --LinkRemoved--

It's an incredibly difficult market out there. While the users on TLS are way more informed than the average person/law applicant, I still think people here have an overly rosy outlook on what it's like.


OP's thread is a good one. I get anxiety everyday over me wanting to attend law school. I am going to apply in the fall. I might just apply to Harvard, Stanford and Columbia. If I do not get in, I might not attend at all. I am seriously starting to question if the T-10 are worth it based on the article that is linked in the quote from Inside the Law School Scam. With the undergrad I hold, I could easily make $100K within 5-10 years and pull this type of income every year for the next 30. However, I have always wanted to be a lawyer, so I need to give this path a go first.


'Giving it a go' is most likely at least a 5 year commitment. Also, a JD may close as many doors as it opens (especially with a 3 year gap).


I meant giving it a go in terms of the LSAT. If I score real well, I will attend. If I do not, I will figure something else out.

Mind me asking what your degree is in?

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Aawaldrop
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Re: Is it worth it to go to law school ever?

Postby Aawaldrop » Thu Feb 28, 2013 12:18 am

bizzybone1313 wrote:
Aawaldrop wrote:
bizzybone1313 wrote:
bracq24 wrote:Not a troll. I think it's a completely legitimate question to ask, particularly in a forum like this. I'd advise you to read this post on ITLSS from earlier in the week if you have not already: --LinkRemoved--

It's an incredibly difficult market out there. While the users on TLS are way more informed than the average person/law applicant, I still think people here have an overly rosy outlook on what it's like.


OP's thread is a good one. I get anxiety everyday over me wanting to attend law school. I am going to apply in the fall. I might just apply to Harvard, Stanford and Columbia. If I do not get in, I might not attend at all. I am seriously starting to question if the T-10 are worth it based on the article that is linked in the quote from Inside the Law School Scam. With the undergrad I hold, I could easily make $100K within 5-10 years and pull this type of income every year for the next 30. However, I have always wanted to be a lawyer, so I need to give this path a go first.


'Giving it a go' is most likely at least a 5 year commitment. Also, a JD may close as many doors as it opens (especially with a 3 year gap).


I meant giving it a go in terms of the LSAT. If I score real well, I will attend. If I do not, I will figure something else out.


Ah gotcha. Still for those considering law school, I would suggest really looking in to what being a lawyer actually entails. (Unlike the Cooley Valedictorian who was persuaded by 'My Cousin Vinny'). I know that personally, I previously had a skewed view of the profession, but after further research I actually found it to be something I am really interested in.

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bizzybone1313
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Re: Is it worth it to go to law school ever?

Postby bizzybone1313 » Thu Feb 28, 2013 12:20 am

OP's thread is a good one. I get anxiety everyday over me wanting to attend law school. I am going to apply in the fall. I might just apply to Harvard, Stanford and Columbia. If I do not get in, I might not attend at all. I am seriously starting to question if the T-10 are worth it based on the article that is linked in the quote from Inside the Law School Scam. With the undergrad I hold, I could easily make $100K within 5-10 years and pull this type of income every year for the next 30. However, I have always wanted to be a lawyer, so I need to give this path a go first.


'Giving it a go' is most likely at least a 5 year commitment. Also, a JD may close as many doors as it opens (especially with a 3 year gap).


I meant giving it a go in terms of the LSAT. If I score real well, I will attend. If I do not, I will figure something else out.
Mind me asking what your degree is in?


PM ME.

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Gunnar Stahl
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Re: Is it worth it to go to law school ever?

Postby Gunnar Stahl » Thu Feb 28, 2013 12:26 am

PM'd




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