Things to keep in mind when reading TLS

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rad lulz
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Re: Things to keep in mind when reading TLS

Postby rad lulz » Thu Feb 28, 2013 5:12 pm

WhatOurBodiesAreFor wrote:
rad lulz wrote:
WhatOurBodiesAreFor wrote:
Ludovico Technique wrote:....The legal profession is in complete fucking shambles dude. It isn't even possible to be too pessimistic about it....


You're going more extreme than others have and frankly much more extreme than the current TLS narrative. Where are your facts?


Ludo has TCR. Sorry brah.

http://www.newyorklawjournal.com/PubArticleNY.jsp?id=1202560017086&thepage=1&slreturn=20130128144315 - On the whole, JD's have a bit better than a coin flip shot at a FT/LT job

http://www.lstscorereports.com/ - Your job prospects in greater detail
http://www.abajournal.com/news/article/average_debt_load_of_private_law_grads_is_125k_these_five_schools_lead_to_m - Your debt

If you want some meatier stuff

https://www.law.georgetown.edu/continuing-legal-education/executive-education/upload/2013-report.pdf
http://www.nalp.org/uploads/PerspectivesonFall2012LawStudentRecruiting.pdf
http://abovethelaw.com/tag/citi-midyear-report/

Meanwhile law deans put forward stuff like this:

http://www.law.du.edu/index.php/admissions/learn/choosing-denver-law-myths-v.-facts
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/29/opinion/law-school-is-worth-the-money.html?_r=0



The takeaway: the legal profession is in shambles and is rapidly approaching self-parody


Sweet links, Brah. No really.

Don't you think fucking shambles is overstating it though? Definitely NOT TCR. A popular opinion here? Maybe. TCR? No.

If this is not a shambles, I don't know what is.

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North
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Re: Things to keep in mind when reading TLS

Postby North » Thu Feb 28, 2013 5:21 pm

Page through the Georgetown Report RL posted, WOBAF. Shambles is indeed the word.

WhatOurBodiesAreFor
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Re: Things to keep in mind when reading TLS

Postby WhatOurBodiesAreFor » Fri Mar 01, 2013 4:12 am

Just read the entire Georgetown report. In short, "complete fucking shambles" is not the vibe I got.

Shambles, per Merriam-Webster, wouldn't even be accurate - much less adding the "complete" and "fucking". Shambles means a state of total disorder, per Merriam-Webster.

Total disorder in economics is not the same as total disorder in a society, I understand this. (Read: the economy was in total disorder during the Great Depression even though there were still jobs.) But the Georgetown report speaks about (dramatic) restructuring of the legal market and modest overall growth after some serious shrinkage. Compared to the early 2000s, yes the present legal market is very bad, maybe even in disorder, but to say in "complete fucking (total disorder)" implies that anyone who isn't going somewhere on a full-ride or is not going to Y is foolish. That is not true. In fact, the Georgetown report says "when the market (returns to normalcy)" and it says it expects the market to normalize after several more years of modest growth.

All of this is to say, "complete fucking shambles" is hyperbolic and clearly far from the truth. Anyone who reads TLS will know that they probably should pay sticker at TT, and I, TLS, or the Georgetown report would agree with that.

But I, TLS, and the Georgetown report would probably support the idea of going to Y or another T-14 with significant money, whereas "complete fucking shambles" would probably lead a reader to think that even incredible options such as those would be imprudent.

Therefore, "complete fucking shambles" is NOT TCR.

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Ludo!
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Re: Things to keep in mind when reading TLS

Postby Ludo! » Fri Mar 01, 2013 10:50 am

You are insufferable

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hume85
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Re: Things to keep in mind when reading TLS

Postby hume85 » Fri Mar 01, 2013 11:00 am

Ludovico Technique wrote:You are insufferable

I mean for fuck's sake. I am willing to add this terrible, no good, very bad thread to my "View your posts" list to let you know OP that you not only are you needlessly argumentative, but you have aspergus and seem dumb. Go look at the NLJ 250 numbers or maybe talk to a lawyer.

WhatOurBodiesAreFor
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Re: Things to keep in mind when reading TLS

Postby WhatOurBodiesAreFor » Fri Mar 01, 2013 11:34 am

hume85 wrote:
Ludovico Technique wrote:You are insufferable

I mean for fuck's sake. I am willing to add this terrible, no good, very bad thread to my "View your posts" list to let you know OP that you not only are you needlessly argumentative, but you have aspergus and seem dumb. Go look at the NLJ 250 numbers or maybe talk to a lawyer.


Aspergus: http://www.maryjanesfarm.org/RFBlog/def ... ?Display=5

Asperger's: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asperger_syndrome

Anyway, I am being argumentative and insufferable because you guys refuse to admit (or refuse to give a good reason not to believe) "complete fucking shambles" is hyperbole and this is very important to point out.

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Ludo!
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Re: Things to keep in mind when reading TLS

Postby Ludo! » Fri Mar 01, 2013 11:39 am

What do you prefer to shambles? Disaster, catastrophe, bleak, really really bad? Tell me what term you prefer

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JamesDean1955
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Re: Things to keep in mind when reading TLS

Postby JamesDean1955 » Fri Mar 01, 2013 11:53 am

I don't subsribe to the TLS "shambles" pessimism regarding law student employment prospects, for students at T14 schools (other than Georgetown of course).

I think this is the credited response for schools outside the T14, and for law students in general.

I also hold higher expectations of the legal industry rebounding than TLS, in spite of the restructuring that is taking place, due to my experience in the industry.

Anyone who doesn't agree with the above, idgaf.

Regardless of everything I said above, OP, you are a fucking moron for creating this thread which serves no purpose other than provide yourself a venue to argue (and extremely poorly, I might add) against a bunch of TLS megaposters.

This is one of the dumbest fucking threads I've seen in awhile.

Aight, said my piece, carry on, not wasting another second with this thread.

RodneyRuxin
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Re: Things to keep in mind when reading TLS

Postby RodneyRuxin » Fri Mar 01, 2013 12:08 pm

bad thread is bad

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Gunnar Stahl
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Re: Things to keep in mind when reading TLS

Postby Gunnar Stahl » Fri Mar 01, 2013 12:26 pm

JamesDean1955 wrote:I don't subsribe to the TLS "shambles" pessimism regarding law student employment prospects, for students at T14 schools (other than Georgetown of course).

I think this is the credited response for schools outside the T14, and for law students in general.

I also hold higher expectations of the legal industry rebounding than TLS, in spite of the restructuring that is taking place, due to my experience in the industry.

Anyone who doesn't agree with the above, idgaf.

Regardless of everything I said above, OP, you are a fucking moron for creating this thread which serves no purpose other than provide yourself a venue to argue (and extremely poorly, I might add) against a bunch of TLS megaposters.

This is one of the dumbest fucking threads I've seen in awhile.

Aight, said my piece, carry on, not wasting another second with this thread.

Not disagreeing with you, but TLS is way more positive about T14 outcomes than most other places.

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guano
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Re: Things to keep in mind when reading TLS

Postby guano » Fri Mar 01, 2013 12:32 pm

WhatOurBodiesAreFor wrote:Anyway, I am being argumentative and insufferable because you guys refuse to admit (or refuse to give a good reason not to believe) "complete fucking shambles" is hyperbole and this is very important to point out.

Yes, it is hyperbole, but that doesn't make the underlying sentiment less true.
As an example, I've heard from several firms (ranging from V10 to a firm that sits at roughly the 150-200 range) that at a particular T30 that ranks in the top 20 on the NLJ250 list, that if the student's GPA is below 3.4 or 3.5 (varies per firm) they won't look at his/her resume.

To put that in perspective, more than 3/4 of the student body will have spent over $100k in tuition alone and easily half the students will graduate with close to a million dollars in debt*, but no more than 35% will be permitted to even interview for the kind of job needed to service the loans.

*this is extremely conservative, but I'm not gonna guesstimate how few students have rich parents

rad lulz
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Re: Things to keep in mind when reading TLS

Postby rad lulz » Fri Mar 01, 2013 1:04 pm

WhatOurBodiesAreFor wrote:Just read the entire Georgetown report. In short, "complete fucking shambles" is not the vibe I got.

Shambles, per Merriam-Webster, wouldn't even be accurate - much less adding the "complete" and "fucking". Shambles means a state of total disorder, per Merriam-Webster.

Total disorder in economics is not the same as total disorder in a society, I understand this. (Read: the economy was in total disorder during the Great Depression even though there were still jobs.) But the Georgetown report speaks about (dramatic) restructuring of the legal market and modest overall growth after some serious shrinkage. Compared to the early 2000s, yes the present legal market is very bad, maybe even in disorder, but to say in "complete fucking (total disorder)" implies that anyone who isn't going somewhere on a full-ride or is not going to Y is foolish. That is not true. In fact, the Georgetown report says "when the market (returns to normalcy)" and it says it expects the market to normalize after several more years of modest growth.

All of this is to say, "complete fucking shambles" is hyperbolic and clearly far from the truth. Anyone who reads TLS will know that they probably should pay sticker at TT, and I, TLS, or the Georgetown report would agree with that.

But I, TLS, and the Georgetown report would probably support the idea of going to Y or another T-14 with significant money, whereas "complete fucking shambles" would probably lead a reader to think that even incredible options such as those would be imprudent.

Therefore, "complete fucking shambles" is NOT TCR.

180 troll

WhatOurBodiesAreFor
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Re: Things to keep in mind when reading TLS

Postby WhatOurBodiesAreFor » Fri Mar 01, 2013 5:19 pm

I don't see how you guys think compiling a list of TLS truths is not a good idea.

What if I softened the language a bit to say: "some non-TLSers would say TLS is a little pessimistic" so that it only leaves open the possibility that TLS is too pessimistic rather than saying flat out that it is?

I'm going to stop adding to this thread after I say one more thing, believe me I will, but I just have to add that I really made this thread to make a positive force in this community.

I am extremely gullible and probably half as well educated as most of you guys, I come to TLS to learn and read what's up in the world of law. I have literally no other means to get in touch with it. So, when I come TLS and read some things that the TLS community has seemingly taken as irrefutable truths but yet there is a decent case to be made for the opposing view, I get a little frustrated. It's like getting a bad education.

You cannot convince that the 2011 me would not benefit immensely from a post like this one. Most crucially, if I knew how brilliant and insightful the posts generally are here, like I said before, I'd probably have a better LSAT score. But the other things are true too, everyone factors into their decision making their own opportunity cost, and attending a school in the top 10 doesn't automatically get you a class of job that a T30 never will. I swear to God I needed to be told this 1 year ago. This is because I was not well educated and have never had the opportunity to be around a lot of lawyers, especially those who attended the best schools. If you guys think I'm the only one out there seeking a legal education who is/was in the same boat, then you're mistaken.

If we set some things straight here it will lead to a much better education of the ones who come here to learn from TLS.

I'm not going to throw insults back at you like you've thrown at me for whatever reason - though I have the tendency to. But I will say it's rather ironic that you guys are the ones sitting there trying to affect me personally when all I'm doing is trying to do is improve the site a little. Even if I'm totally wrong at least this is a noble cause. Come on.

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Tom Joad
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Re: Things to keep in mind when reading TLS

Postby Tom Joad » Fri Mar 01, 2013 5:30 pm

TLS is definitely wildly optimistic.

"Woo! Penn is great! 60% BIGLAW placement!"

(60% chance to spend most of your 20s sacrificing your health and well-being to get your net worth back to 0)

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cahwc12
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Re: Things to keep in mind when reading TLS

Postby cahwc12 » Fri Mar 01, 2013 6:11 pm

WhatOurBodiesAreFor wrote:I don't see how you guys think compiling a list of TLS truths is not a good idea.

What if I softened the language a bit to say: "some non-TLSers would say TLS is a little pessimistic" so that it only leaves open the possibility that TLS is too pessimistic rather than saying flat out that it is?
I'm going to stop adding to this thread after I say one more thing, believe me I will, but I just have to add that I really made this thread to make a positive force in this community.

I am extremely gullible and probably half as well educated as most of you guys, I come to TLS to learn and read what's up in the world of law. I have literally no other means to get in touch with it. So, when I come TLS and read some things that the TLS community has seemingly taken as irrefutable truths but yet there is a decent case to be made for the opposing view, I get a little frustrated. It's like getting a bad education.

You cannot convince that the 2011 me would not benefit immensely from a post like this one. Most crucially, if I knew how brilliant and insightful the posts generally are here, like I said before, I'd probably have a better LSAT score. But the other things are true too, everyone factors into their decision making their own opportunity cost, and attending a school in the top 10 doesn't automatically get you a class of job that a T30 never will. I swear to God I needed to be told this 1 year ago. This is because I was not well educated and have never had the opportunity to be around a lot oflawyers, especially those who attended the best schools. If you guys think I'm the only one out there seeking a legal education who is/was in the same boat, then you're mistaken.

If we set some things straight here it will lead to a much better education of the ones who come here to learn from TLS.

I'm not going to throw insults back at you like you've thrown at me for whatever reason - though I have the tendency to. But I will sayit's rather ironic that you guys are the ones sitting there trying to affect me personally when all I'm doing is trying to do is improve the site a little. Even ifI'm totally wrong at least this is a noble cause. Come on.


Couldn't agree more, well said.

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Gunnar Stahl
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Re: Things to keep in mind when reading TLS

Postby Gunnar Stahl » Fri Mar 01, 2013 8:39 pm

Tom Joad wrote:TLS is definitely wildly optimistic.

"Woo! Penn is great! 60% BIGLAW placement!"

(60% chance to spend most of your 20s sacrificing your health and well-being to get your net worth back to 0)

yeah, and then everyone assumes that some in-house job is going to be waiting for them after they get shitcanned by big law

Big Dog
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Re: Things to keep in mind when reading TLS

Postby Big Dog » Sat Mar 02, 2013 12:19 pm

I am extremely gullible...


Not sure you should put that on your resume, or tell prospective clients....are you sure that the legal field is the best fit for you?

toothbrush
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Re: Things to keep in mind when reading TLS

Postby toothbrush » Sat Mar 02, 2013 12:24 pm

cahwc12 wrote:
WhatOurBodiesAreFor wrote:I don't see how you guys think compiling a list of TLS truths is not a good idea.

What if I softened the language a bit to say: "some non-TLSers would say TLS is a little pessimistic" so that it only leaves open the possibility that TLS is too pessimistic rather than saying flat out that it is?
I'm going to stop adding to this thread after I say one more thing, believe me I will, but I just have to add that I really made this thread to make a positive force in this community.

I am extremely gullible and probably half as well educated as most of you guys, I come to TLS to learn and read what's up in the world of law. I have literally no other means to get in touch with it. So, when I come TLS and read some things that the TLS community has seemingly taken as irrefutable truths but yet there is a decent case to be made for the opposing view, I get a little frustrated. It's like getting a bad education.

You cannot convince that the 2011 me would not benefit immensely from a post like this one. Most crucially, if I knew how brilliant and insightful the posts generally are here, like I said before, I'd probably have a better LSAT score. But the other things are true too, everyone factors into their decision making their own opportunity cost, and attending a school in the top 10 doesn't automatically get you a class of job that a T30 never will. I swear to God I needed to be told this 1 year ago. This is because I was not well educated and have never had the opportunity to be around a lot oflawyers, especially those who attended the best schools. If you guys think I'm the only one out there seeking a legal education who is/was in the same boat, then you're mistaken.

If we set some things straight here it will lead to a much better education of the ones who come here to learn from TLS.

I'm not going to throw insults back at you like you've thrown at me for whatever reason - though I have the tendency to. But I will sayit's rather ironic that you guys are the ones sitting there trying to affect me personally when all I'm doing is trying to do is improve the site a little. Even ifI'm totally wrong at least this is a noble cause. Come on.


Couldn't agree more, well said.

:lol:




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