Things to keep in mind when reading TLS

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WhatOurBodiesAreFor
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Re: Things to keep in mind when reading TLS

Postby WhatOurBodiesAreFor » Wed Feb 27, 2013 12:37 pm

North wrote:...And you still need to add an age-related qualifier to legal professionals. A lot of people have gotten a lot of terrible, life-ruining advice from boomer legal professionals. And you need to make the connection between "don't listen to 0Ls" and the "unless they're informed" caveat more clear. You should also note that nearly all of the 0Ls on TLS who have given advice for a significant amount of time and have yet to be run out of town for spreading misinformation probably have a pretty good idea what they're talking about.


Revised for this in original post.

North wrote:...this manifesto....


I don't want it to be a manifesto. But the more and more this goes on the more it seems that it must become one. I can't give people the guide to TLS nor can I speak with absolute precision about the issues here.

law2015 wrote:I just want to comment that this is a stupid thread.


This is not a stupid thread. TLS is about the only way I have to learn about the legal profession, so, when the messaging on TLS is off getting the correct information out of it is more difficult and takes longer. The goal of this post is to help people out who rely on TLS

Big Dog
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Re: Things to keep in mind when reading TLS

Postby Big Dog » Wed Feb 27, 2013 12:39 pm

What is the point of this thread (besides common sense)?

Yes, TLS is a free online forum. ALL data points -- excepts Ken's of course -- are anecdotal, if even true. ALL posts should be taken with a grain-of-salt.

Did no one take AP Stats? Did Critical Reading skills go out the window after the SAT/ACT? :roll:

WhatOurBodiesAreFor
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Re: Things to keep in mind when reading TLS

Postby WhatOurBodiesAreFor » Wed Feb 27, 2013 12:43 pm

North wrote:
law2015 wrote:I just want to comment that this is a stupid thread.

There could end up being something valuable here. I just get the impression that my man WOBAF started this out with the intention of it being some kind of Ninety-Five theses against the tried and true TLS wisdom and the way we distribute it, but it got diluted and muddled when he tried to make it sound super reasonable.


Please don't tell me what my intentions are. My intentions are as stated in my original post. I love TLS and am immensely grateful for everyone on here who contributes.

See my post above for an elaboration on my goal in writing this. Basically, when people (like me) rely solely on TLS it is difficult to decipher at first how best to get the right message out of TLS.

WhatOurBodiesAreFor
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Re: Things to keep in mind when reading TLS

Postby WhatOurBodiesAreFor » Wed Feb 27, 2013 12:47 pm

Big Dog wrote:What is the point of this thread (besides common sense)?

Yes, TLS is a free online forum. ALL data points -- excepts Ken's of course -- are anecdotal, if even true. ALL posts should be taken with a grain-of-salt.

Did no one take AP Stats? Did Critical Reading skills go out the window after the SAT/ACT? :roll:


All posts should not be taken with a grain of salt, there are some truly insightful and brilliant users here.

Again, the point of this is to help out those without first-hand knowledge of the legal profession and advisors helping them along the way. Some people rely solely on TLS (like me) because they have no other means to learn about what they're going through. I've learned things on TLS that I haven't been able to learn elsewhere. Now, when the messaging is slightly off it can be harder for these sort of users to get the most out of TLS. This is why I'm writing this.

I have expressed my issues with TLS in the past but my motivation draws from this reasoning. Hence, this post.

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North
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Re: Things to keep in mind when reading TLS

Postby North » Wed Feb 27, 2013 1:00 pm

WhatOurBodiesAreFor wrote:Please don't tell me what my intentions are. My intentions are as stated in my original post. See my post above for an elaboration on my goal in writing this. Basically, when people (like me) rely solely on TLS it is difficult to decipher at first how best to get the right message out of TLS.

Don't get mad, bro. I get a little defensive when I see anything that claims to correct the TLS HIVEMIND because
WhatOurBodiesAreFor wrote:I love TLS and am immensely grateful for everyone on here who contributes.


And it seems (or seemed, I'm not sure what all you've edited) like your methods for getting the "right message" out of TLS are largely based on discounting the source of most of its information and the delivery system for its advice: knowledgeable 0Ls, law students, and graduates. For my information, I too used nothing but TLS to get into law school and will use nothing but TLS to get through it. I don't know what you're getting at when you say that the "messaging is off" on TLS. So, I don't know what you think you're correcting. And frankly, whenever I see the TLS HIVEMIND pejorative get thrown around, I prepare for nonsense.

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Rahviveh
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Re: Things to keep in mind when reading TLS

Postby Rahviveh » Wed Feb 27, 2013 1:31 pm

WhatOurBodiesAreFor wrote:
NinerFan wrote:
North wrote:
WhatOurBodiesAreFor wrote:6- In the same vein, be wary of listening too much to 0L's. Seek out the posts by admissions officers, deans, legal professionals, etc. for the most insightful posts.

That's stupid. You know that these people are where almost all of the lies and misinformation we sort through comes from, right? I'd trust a knowledgeable 0L on TLS over a Dean or Boomer lawyer any day of the week.


No way man. There's absolutely no way admissions officers and deans, whose livelihoods depend on as many people applying to and attending law school as possible, would be anything less than insightful, truthful, and honest about your chances of succeeding in and after law school.


I've already edited for this, man. Chill out. While I wouldn't be quick to ascribe them evil intentions, "less than insightful, truthful and, honest" is certainly the case. You're right.


On the other hand, Mike Spivey (a former admissions officer, so I guess he doesn't count) and Dean Perez offer very candid insights about the admissions process in general. If the inside baseball of the decision-making process interests you at all (which it does for me because I am a geek lol), then their input has been very valuable. But yeah, most deans who post on here are been no better than used car salesmen.

One deficiency in TLS - which is not really the fault of its users - is the lack of information here about what life is like post-biglaw. For post-graduation we have a nice statistical breakdown of different outcomes, flawed and incomplete as it may be. But for exit options there's only educated guesses. And most of the lawyers on here are first- or second-year associates so they do not have direct experience with it. For us 0L's, knowing what the rest of your 30-40 year career looks like after year 3 is critical to the decision if you are taking out more than 150k-180k of debt.

Big Dog
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Re: Things to keep in mind when reading TLS

Postby Big Dog » Wed Feb 27, 2013 7:47 pm

All posts should not be taken with a grain of salt, there are some truly insightful and brilliant users here.


I disagree. Even those who are honest and truthful, are only giving their opinion from their perch. Mike Spivey, for example, has excellent insights that he gained from working in admissions. But, and this is a big But, his insights might not be applicable at HYS, or CCN, or some other school, or UC Hastings. And he clearly makes that point.

racrfish
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Re: Things to keep in mind when reading TLS

Postby racrfish » Wed Feb 27, 2013 8:12 pm

Why is a thread like this even needed? I genuinely don't get what you're going for here.


Secondly, reading a thread like this on my first day would not have changed anything about my experience here. No snark intended, you have to learn the ropes of a message board as you go, IMO.

WhatOurBodiesAreFor
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Re: Things to keep in mind when reading TLS

Postby WhatOurBodiesAreFor » Thu Feb 28, 2013 4:17 am

North wrote:I don't know what you're getting at when you say that the "messaging is off" on TLS. So, I don't know what you think you're correcting.


TLS is not a perfect source of information. And I don't mean that sometimes some users say things that are inaccurate. I mean, as a whole, TLS will not give you an accurate overall picture of the legal profession. I think if you read only TLS your conception of the legal profession would be too pessimistic. (In the first sentence of the OP I say this.)

Who am I to say that TLS is overly pessimistic, you ask? No one. That's why I am not going to sit here and say user X was wrong when he said Y. I just think that it's instructive to point out that not everyone who agrees with an idea will write "+1" and most any active user who disagrees will make his disagreement known. By the nature of TLS some ideas will be drown out and not all ideas will receive the same amount of attention. I think many readers browse TLS without considering facts like these.

Big Dog wrote:
All posts should not be taken with a grain of salt, there are some truly insightful and brilliant users here.
I disagree. Even those who are honest and truthful, are only giving their opinion from their perch. Mike Spivey, for example, has excellent insights that he gained from working in admissions. But, and this is a big But, his insights might not be applicable at HYS, or CCN, or some other school, or UC Hastings. And he clearly makes that point.


I clearly do not mean that some users' posts should be taken as irrefutable truths. There is a middle ground between "grain of salt" and "irrefutable truth". In the end, I don't think we will really disagree. There are some truly great posts here that readers would do well to fully absorb (after carefully considering which cases it does and does not apply to of course).

racrfish wrote:Why is a thread like this even needed? I genuinely don't get what you're going for here.

Secondly, reading a thread like this on my first day would not have changed anything about my experience here. No snark intended, you have to learn the ropes of a message board as you go, IMO.


In regards to your first comment, how annoying is it when you spend hours spelling out your argument on why Dale Jarrett is the best driver in NASCAR and then someone speaks up and just says "I genuinely don't think that he is". That's you. If, after reading my five posts on my I think this thread is relevant, you still take issue with it, then tell me that you do and why. Then we can have a debate.

In regards to your second comment, I think it can be instructive because if someone could very accurately spell out a few truths of TLS it would provide a better foundation from which to read it. Any readers of the thread could then learn a little bit quicker. Easy example, anyone who has read any message board ever knows that you should probably evaluate each idea expressed there on your own, to run it through a sort of test checking its veracity. But in reading TLS readers should do this considerably less. On TLS we have mostly very brilliant users and the law school noob would be wise to absorb most anything s/he reads here.

If I didn't bring my conception of message boards into TLS when I first started reading it I would be in a different situation right now. I took the December 2011 LSAT when I knew I wouldn't maximize my potential. And I didn't. I took it, did poorly like I knew I would, then studied my ass off for the following June and October. I wish I could have taken the February 2013 because I know I got more than a 167 in me, but I have maxed out my tries. If I would entered TLS more ready to absorb things could be very different.

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nickb285
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Re: Things to keep in mind when reading TLS

Postby nickb285 » Thu Feb 28, 2013 12:00 pm

WhatOurBodiesAreFor wrote:In regards to your first comment, how annoying is it when you spend hours spelling out your argument on why Dale Jarrett is the best driver in NASCAR and then someone speaks up and just says "I genuinely don't think that he is".


If someone spent hours talking to me about NASCAR drivers, I'm pretty sure that would be a generously understated response.

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Ludo!
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Re: Things to keep in mind when reading TLS

Postby Ludo! » Thu Feb 28, 2013 12:06 pm

WhatOurBodiesAreFor wrote:I think if you read only TLS your conception of the legal profession would be too pessimistic.



LOL. You know the other messageboards make fun of TLS for being too optimistic right? The legal profession is in complete fucking shambles dude. It isn't even possible to be too pessimistic about it. You didn't even have to warn us you were a 0l, it's pretty obvious from your posting

Raymond112909
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Re: Things to keep in mind when reading TLS

Postby Raymond112909 » Thu Feb 28, 2013 12:12 pm

really too optimistic?? This guy is a douche...I agree with your statement about TLS mostly being a downer.

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Ludo!
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Re: Things to keep in mind when reading TLS

Postby Ludo! » Thu Feb 28, 2013 12:14 pm

Raymond112909 wrote:really too optimistic?? This guy is a douche...I agree with your statement about TLS mostly being a downer.


The truth is a downer

rad lulz
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Re: Things to keep in mind when reading TLS

Postby rad lulz » Thu Feb 28, 2013 12:24 pm

Ludovico Technique wrote:
Raymond112909 wrote:really too optimistic?? This guy is a douche...I agree with your statement about TLS mostly being a downer.


The truth is a downer

This is TCR

I recommend that 0Ls take a trip down to JDU and read about people trying to figure out how to get doc review gigs

I also recommend 0Ls read all the ITLSS posts

TLS is boundless optimism in comparison

WhatOurBodiesAreFor
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Re: Things to keep in mind when reading TLS

Postby WhatOurBodiesAreFor » Thu Feb 28, 2013 12:54 pm

rad lulz wrote:
Ludovico Technique wrote:
Raymond112909 wrote:really too optimistic?? This guy is a douche...I agree with your statement about TLS mostly being a downer.


The truth is a downer

This is TCR

I recommend that 0Ls take a trip down to JDU and read about people trying to figure out how to get doc review gigs

I also recommend 0Ls read all the ITLSS posts

TLS is boundless optimism in comparison


I hope you don't mean TLS being optimistic about the legal market is TCR. That'd be overstepping one's boundaries a little, no?

If you're saying the truth being a downer is TCR, well, I'll probably disagree with that too. But another place....

If you're saying that the TCR is that we're all consciously avoiding the fact that the legal market is in shambles because we all think we're special enough to overcome the terrible job market, then, well, your claims are much more ambitious than mine.

Don't overuse "TCR".

Ludovico Technique wrote:
WhatOurBodiesAreFor wrote:I think if you read only TLS your conception of the legal profession would be too pessimistic.

LOL. You know the other messageboards make fun of TLS for being too optimistic right? The legal profession is in complete fucking shambles dude. It isn't even possible to be too pessimistic about it. You didn't even have to warn us you were a 0l, it's pretty obvious from your posting


Just to point out, TLS can be optimistic by comparison but still pessimistic on the whole.

Also, please see my above post for clarification on what exactly I mean by TLS being pessimistic. I actually mean that when one reads TLS s/he is tempted to take away a more pessimistic message than is the case because of the nature of message boards. Which is not the same thing as saying that TLS users are too pessimistic.

Ludovico Technique wrote:...You didn't even have to warn us you were a 0l, it's pretty obvious from your posting


As North so rightly pointed out, TLS would be so much less insightful if 0Ls were limited to LSAT discussion

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Ludo!
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Re: Things to keep in mind when reading TLS

Postby Ludo! » Thu Feb 28, 2013 1:10 pm

North said knowledgeable 0ls

WhatOurBodiesAreFor
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Re: Things to keep in mind when reading TLS

Postby WhatOurBodiesAreFor » Thu Feb 28, 2013 1:53 pm

Ludovico Technique wrote:North said knowledgeable 0ls


What makes you think he's more knowledgeable than me besides the fact that he agrees with you more? Technically, we're both equally as knowledgeable anyway because we both get most of our insight from TLS.

I'd really like to hear what you have to say, Ludovico. But give me something besides:

Ludovico Technique wrote:....The legal profession is in complete fucking shambles dude. It isn't even possible to be too pessimistic about it....


You're going more extreme than others have and frankly much more extreme than the current TLS narrative. Where are your facts?

ETA: By the equally as knowledgeable bit I just mean to say that we're reading the same thing but getting slightly different readings.

ETA2: It's really annoying when you don't even speak to my points and just say some "gotcha" comment.

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Ludo!
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Re: Things to keep in mind when reading TLS

Postby Ludo! » Thu Feb 28, 2013 3:22 pm

Sorry dude I don't like talking about law related stuff anymore. I definitely don't like debating the state of legal hiring with 0ls. Keep on being optimistic if you want, hope things work out for you

rad lulz
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Re: Things to keep in mind when reading TLS

Postby rad lulz » Thu Feb 28, 2013 3:29 pm

WhatOurBodiesAreFor wrote:Don't overuse "TCR".

Or you could learn to read

rad lulz
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Re: Things to keep in mind when reading TLS

Postby rad lulz » Thu Feb 28, 2013 3:48 pm

WhatOurBodiesAreFor wrote:
Ludovico Technique wrote:....The legal profession is in complete fucking shambles dude. It isn't even possible to be too pessimistic about it....


You're going more extreme than others have and frankly much more extreme than the current TLS narrative. Where are your facts?


Ludo has TCR. Sorry brah.

http://www.newyorklawjournal.com/PubArticleNY.jsp?id=1202560017086&thepage=1&slreturn=20130128144315 - On the whole, JD's have a bit better than a coin flip shot at a FT/LT job

http://www.lstscorereports.com/ - Your job prospects in greater detail
http://www.abajournal.com/news/article/average_debt_load_of_private_law_grads_is_125k_these_five_schools_lead_to_m - Your debt

If you want some meatier stuff

https://www.law.georgetown.edu/continuing-legal-education/executive-education/upload/2013-report.pdf
http://www.nalp.org/uploads/PerspectivesonFall2012LawStudentRecruiting.pdf
http://abovethelaw.com/tag/citi-midyear-report/

Meanwhile law deans put forward stuff like this:

http://www.law.du.edu/index.php/admissions/learn/choosing-denver-law-myths-v.-facts
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/29/opinion/law-school-is-worth-the-money.html?_r=0



The takeaway: the legal profession is in shambles and is rapidly approaching self-parody

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mephistopheles
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Re: Things to keep in mind when reading TLS

Postby mephistopheles » Thu Feb 28, 2013 3:48 pm

wut

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smaug_
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Re: Things to keep in mind when reading TLS

Postby smaug_ » Thu Feb 28, 2013 3:51 pm

Is OP a troll or just a combative nerd without social skills?

Either way, this thread is bad. The TLS CW is off on some things (e.g. financial aid stuff) but TLS is better than most things. Considering that two of the things echoed most are "check LSN and LST" it's hard to say that TLS is making value judgments about schools as much as it is telling people to be informed applicants and consumers. The bad parts of TLS mainly stem from the neurotic nature of 0Ls and law students in general. This thread seems to be part of that disease rather than a cure.

WhatOurBodiesAreFor
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Re: Things to keep in mind when reading TLS

Postby WhatOurBodiesAreFor » Thu Feb 28, 2013 4:57 pm

rad lulz wrote:
WhatOurBodiesAreFor wrote:
Ludovico Technique wrote:....The legal profession is in complete fucking shambles dude. It isn't even possible to be too pessimistic about it....


You're going more extreme than others have and frankly much more extreme than the current TLS narrative. Where are your facts?


Ludo has TCR. Sorry brah.

http://www.newyorklawjournal.com/PubArticleNY.jsp?id=1202560017086&thepage=1&slreturn=20130128144315 - On the whole, JD's have a bit better than a coin flip shot at a FT/LT job

http://www.lstscorereports.com/ - Your job prospects in greater detail
http://www.abajournal.com/news/article/average_debt_load_of_private_law_grads_is_125k_these_five_schools_lead_to_m - Your debt

If you want some meatier stuff

https://www.law.georgetown.edu/continuing-legal-education/executive-education/upload/2013-report.pdf
http://www.nalp.org/uploads/PerspectivesonFall2012LawStudentRecruiting.pdf
http://abovethelaw.com/tag/citi-midyear-report/

Meanwhile law deans put forward stuff like this:

http://www.law.du.edu/index.php/admissions/learn/choosing-denver-law-myths-v.-facts
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/29/opinion/law-school-is-worth-the-money.html?_r=0



The takeaway: the legal profession is in shambles and is rapidly approaching self-parody


Sweet links, Brah. No really.

Don't you think fucking shambles is overstating it though? Definitely NOT TCR. A popular opinion here? Maybe. TCR? No.
Last edited by WhatOurBodiesAreFor on Thu Feb 28, 2013 5:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

WhatOurBodiesAreFor
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Re: Things to keep in mind when reading TLS

Postby WhatOurBodiesAreFor » Thu Feb 28, 2013 4:57 pm

mephistopheles wrote:wut


sup

WhatOurBodiesAreFor
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Re: Things to keep in mind when reading TLS

Postby WhatOurBodiesAreFor » Thu Feb 28, 2013 5:00 pm

hibiki wrote:Is OP a troll or just a combative nerd without social skills?


Just a combative nerd without social skills here.


hibiki wrote:Either way, this thread is bad. The TLS CW is off on some things (e.g. financial aid stuff) but TLS is better than most things. Considering that two of the things echoed most are "check LSN and LST" it's hard to say that TLS is making value judgments about schools as much as it is telling people to be informed applicants and consumers. The bad parts of TLS mainly stem from the neurotic nature of 0Ls and law students in general. This thread seems to be part of that disease rather than a cure.


As radlulz said, hibiki, learn to read. I've addressed all your points in my replies.

I have also already defended myself and explained my reasoning for posting this. You aren't going to convince me that this isn't helpful.




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