Things to keep in mind when reading TLS

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WhatOurBodiesAreFor
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Things to keep in mind when reading TLS

Postby WhatOurBodiesAreFor » Wed Feb 27, 2013 10:26 am

Disclaimer 1: I'm a 0L and have only anecdotal, mostly TLS-based information regarding the legal profession

Disclaimer 2: I have been been very vocal in the "T14 at sticker argument", but rest assured I will avoid advocating my position here. I know I only have grounds to make my voice heard in the discussion, not to assert that those against my position are wrong.

You hear non-TLSers in the legal world say that TLS is a neurotic and pessimistic lot. For the good of all those 0Ls about to make extremely important decisions (including myself), I want to enumerate a few things that are important to keep in mind when reading TLS.

I anticipate I'll be accused of being too assertive when I in fact have little standing. So, in addition to adding the disclaimers above, I also want to say that I will mitigate my assertions so to convey the utmost amount of truth and that I am doing this solely for the good of our community. I am über-conscious not to overstep my boundaries here. As such, please tell me if anything here strikes you as inaccurate.

1- The vast majority of TLS posts are made by users who are intent on positively contributing to the argument and who have good reason to believe what they say is true. If you assume that posts that contradict your point of view were made by those with ulterior motives and are not representative, you will not get the most out of TLS.

2- The best applicants on here as a whole have a considerably greater opportunity cost than your average joe. That is to say, those with the best LSAT scores will generally have better plan B's than those with lower LSAT scores, so it therefore will make more sense for them to attend only HYS or other T-14s with significant money. Everyone factors into their decision making their own opportunity cost, so what is best for them may not be best for you.

3- Rank and prestige matter a lot in the legal profession, but Cornell will not automatically get you a class of job that Fordham will not and that NYU will not automatically get you a class of job that Cornell will not; Fordham doesn't preclude you from Biglaw, and NYU doesn't automatically get you Biglaw. Because I was a noob when I started to prepare for last school last year, I kind of thought this was the case. It took a longer time on TLS than it would have by other means, such as by speaking to current students and referring to NALP Directory, to get the more accurate take on the relevance of law school rankings.

4- Kind of as a caveat to point 1, because TLS is, after all, an online forum, it necessarily will function like an online forum. This means it is susceptible to trolling, less-than-informed users making bold claims and (especially) "gotcha comments". But as a caveat to the caveat, I must say that users here are highly intelligent and reasonable, so to take everything on here with a grain of salt would be a mistake. As 1 suggests, TLS usually does pretty well to weed the misinformation out and often does not fit the mold of an online forum.

5- Be wary of judging the value or a user's ideas by the quality of their numbers. While a 175+'s points may generally be better than those of a 16x, it is easy to fall victim to hero worship and to place everyone in a sort of hierarchy. This can lead to misinformation (not to mention put you in a bad place personally). Yes, YHS-bound applicants generally know the system better than the average joe, but when the ideas of few, no matter how capable and knowledgeable, gets amplified and shapes the narrative, the message is especially susceptible to being misconstrued. Now, I doubt there is an example of a Yale student successfully changing a narrative for the worse completely. I am only saying that, when browsing a thread, be careful not to give exponentially greater weight to TLS all stars than to other users and not to discount an idea because of the user's less-than-stellar numbers or even his inability to put it as brilliantly as the Yale student likely did.

6- In the same vein, be wary of listening too much to 0L's. There are so many users here who have grounds to make their claims but some to not. To make sure you're getting the most out of TLS couple the traditional TLS user's post with posts by current students, former admissions officers, legal professionals, or anyone else you deem both qualified and unbiased.
Last edited by WhatOurBodiesAreFor on Wed Feb 27, 2013 12:27 pm, edited 11 times in total.

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WhiteyCakes
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Re: Ways TLS hivemind can lead us astray

Postby WhiteyCakes » Wed Feb 27, 2013 10:28 am

Uh oh....

WhatOurBodiesAreFor
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Re: Ways TLS hivemind can lead us astray

Postby WhatOurBodiesAreFor » Wed Feb 27, 2013 10:30 am

WhiteyCakes wrote:Uh oh....


Yeah, changed the title, it was a little inflammatory and really didn't fit

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JXander
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Re: Things to keep in mind when reading TLS

Postby JXander » Wed Feb 27, 2013 10:41 am

This is reasonable and well written. I wish I had encountered something like this as a new user last year. Thanks, WOBAF.

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Cobretti
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Re: Things to keep in mind when reading TLS

Postby Cobretti » Wed Feb 27, 2013 10:42 am

WhatOurBodiesAreFor wrote:

6- In the same vein, be wary of listening too much to 0L's. Seek out the posts by admissions officers, deans, legal professionals, etc. for the most insightful posts.

Says the 0L... Gotcha!

(Actually this is good advice)

AllTheLawz
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Re: Things to keep in mind when reading TLS

Postby AllTheLawz » Wed Feb 27, 2013 10:44 am

WhatOurBodiesAreFor wrote:Disclaimer 1: I'm a 0L and have only anecdotal, mostly TLS-based information regarding the legal profression

Disclaimer 2: I have been been very vocal in the "T14 at sticker argument", but rest assured I will avoid advocating my position here. I know I only have grounds to make my voice heard in the discussion, not to assert that those against my position are wrong.

3- Rank/prestige overrated. I speak here to the idea that Cornell greatly (greatly) outperforms Fordham and is greatly outperformed by NYU. Because I was a noob when I started to prepare for last school last year, I thought this was the case. It took a longer time on TLS than it would have by speaking to legal professionals to get the more accurate take on the relevance of law school rankings.


The 2Ls who just went through OCI and have friends at a variety of schools can tell you emphatically that this is wrong. "Legal Professionals" have no clue with entry level/SA hiring is like. One of the most common questions I was asked during offer dinners was how the legal hiring market was looking overall.

WhatOurBodiesAreFor
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Re: Things to keep in mind when reading TLS

Postby WhatOurBodiesAreFor » Wed Feb 27, 2013 11:18 am

AllTheLawz wrote:
WhatOurBodiesAreFor wrote:Disclaimer 1: I'm a 0L and have only anecdotal, mostly TLS-based information regarding the legal profression

Disclaimer 2: I have been been very vocal in the "T14 at sticker argument", but rest assured I will avoid advocating my position here. I know I only have grounds to make my voice heard in the discussion, not to assert that those against my position are wrong.

3- Rank/prestige overrated. I speak here to the idea that Cornell greatly (greatly) outperforms Fordham and is greatly outperformed by NYU. Because I was a noob when I started to prepare for last school last year, I thought this was the case. It took a longer time on TLS than it would have by speaking to legal professionals to get the more accurate take on the relevance of law school rankings.


The 2Ls who just went through OCI and have friends at a variety of schools can tell you emphatically that this is wrong. "Legal Professionals" have no clue with entry level/SA hiring is like. One of the most common questions I was asked during offer dinners was how the legal hiring market was looking overall.


Thanks, AllTheLawz - good point. I've edited the original post accordingly.

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Ruxin1
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Re: Things to keep in mind when reading TLS

Postby Ruxin1 » Wed Feb 27, 2013 11:23 am

Admissions officers and Deans OK GUY

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North
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Re: Things to keep in mind when reading TLS

Postby North » Wed Feb 27, 2013 11:31 am

WhatOurBodiesAreFor wrote:6- In the same vein, be wary of listening too much to 0L's. Seek out the posts by admissions officers, deans, legal professionals, etc. for the most insightful posts.

That's stupid. You know that these people are where almost all of the lies and misinformation we sort through comes from, right? I'd trust a knowledgeable 0L on TLS over a Dean or Boomer lawyer any day of the week.

rad lulz
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Re: Things to keep in mind when reading TLS

Postby rad lulz » Wed Feb 27, 2013 11:36 am

North wrote:
WhatOurBodiesAreFor wrote:6- In the same vein, be wary of listening too much to 0L's. Seek out the posts by admissions officers, deans, legal professionals, etc. for the most insightful posts.

That's stupid. You know that these people are where almost all of the lies and misinformation we sort through comes from, right? I'd trust a knowledgeable 0L on TLS over a Dean or Boomer lawyer any day of the week.

TCR.

WhatOurBodiesAreFor
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Re: Things to keep in mind when reading TLS

Postby WhatOurBodiesAreFor » Wed Feb 27, 2013 11:44 am

rad lulz wrote:
North wrote:
WhatOurBodiesAreFor wrote:6- In the same vein, be wary of listening too much to 0L's. Seek out the posts by admissions officers, deans, legal professionals, etc. for the most insightful posts.

That's stupid. You know that these people are where almost all of the lies and misinformation we sort through comes from, right? I'd trust a knowledgeable 0L on TLS over a Dean or Boomer lawyer any day of the week.

TCR.


Thanks - original post edited accordingly.

North wrote:That's stupid. You know that these people are where almost all of the lies and misinformation we sort through comes from, right? I'd trust a knowledgeable 0L on TLS over a Dean or Boomer lawyer any day of the week.


Ruxin1 wrote:Admissions officers and Deans OK GUY

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NinerFan
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Re: Things to keep in mind when reading TLS

Postby NinerFan » Wed Feb 27, 2013 11:53 am

North wrote:
WhatOurBodiesAreFor wrote:6- In the same vein, be wary of listening too much to 0L's. Seek out the posts by admissions officers, deans, legal professionals, etc. for the most insightful posts.

That's stupid. You know that these people are where almost all of the lies and misinformation we sort through comes from, right? I'd trust a knowledgeable 0L on TLS over a Dean or Boomer lawyer any day of the week.


No way man. There's absolutely no way admissions officers and deans, whose livelihoods depend on as many people applying to and attending law school as possible, would be anything less than insightful, truthful, and honest about your chances of succeeding in and after law school.

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North
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Re: Things to keep in mind when reading TLS

Postby North » Wed Feb 27, 2013 12:00 pm

WhatOurBodiesAreFor wrote:3- Rank/prestige overrated. I speak here to the idea that Cornell greatly (greatly) outperforms Fordham and is greatly outperformed by NYU. Because I was a noob when I started to prepare for last school last year, I thought this was the case. It took a longer time on TLS than it would have by other means, such as speaking to current students and referring to NALP Directory, to get the more accurate take on the relevance of law school rankings.

Can you clarify whatever you're trying to say in this one?

WhatOurBodiesAreFor wrote:
North wrote:That's stupid. You know that these people are where almost all of the lies and misinformation we sort through comes from, right? I'd trust a knowledgeable 0L on TLS over a Dean or Boomer lawyer any day of the week.

It was. And you still need to add an age-related qualifier to legal professionals. A lot of people have gotten a lot of terrible, life-ruining advice from boomer legal professionals. And you need to make the connection between "don't listen to 0Ls" and the "unless they're informed" caveat more clear. You should also note that nearly all of the 0Ls on TLS who have given advice for a significant amount of time and have yet to be run out of town for spreading misinformation probably have a pretty good idea what they're talking about.

WhatOurBodiesAreFor
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Re: Things to keep in mind when reading TLS

Postby WhatOurBodiesAreFor » Wed Feb 27, 2013 12:01 pm

NinerFan wrote:
North wrote:
WhatOurBodiesAreFor wrote:6- In the same vein, be wary of listening too much to 0L's. Seek out the posts by admissions officers, deans, legal professionals, etc. for the most insightful posts.

That's stupid. You know that these people are where almost all of the lies and misinformation we sort through comes from, right? I'd trust a knowledgeable 0L on TLS over a Dean or Boomer lawyer any day of the week.


No way man. There's absolutely no way admissions officers and deans, whose livelihoods depend on as many people applying to and attending law school as possible, would be anything less than insightful, truthful, and honest about your chances of succeeding in and after law school.


I've already edited for this, man. Chill out. While I wouldn't be quick to ascribe them evil intentions, "less than insightful, truthful and, honest" is certainly the case. You're right.

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Ruxin1
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Re: Things to keep in mind when reading TLS

Postby Ruxin1 » Wed Feb 27, 2013 12:02 pm

North wrote:
WhatOurBodiesAreFor wrote:3- Rank/prestige overrated. I speak here to the idea that Cornell greatly (greatly) outperforms Fordham and is greatly outperformed by NYU. Because I was a noob when I started to prepare for last school last year, I thought this was the case. It took a longer time on TLS than it would have by other means, such as speaking to current students and referring to NALP Directory, to get the more accurate take on the relevance of law school rankings.

Can you clarify whatever you're trying to say in this one?



He is saying because a bunch of firms recruit at fordham that they are just as good as NYU and Cornell -- the dude is a fucking jackass, just because they show up at OCI doesnt mean they are hiring in DROVES.

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Re: Things to keep in mind when reading TLS

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Wed Feb 27, 2013 12:03 pm

WhatOurBodiesAreFor wrote:5- Be wary of judging the value or a user's ideas by the quality of their numbers. While a 175+'s points may generally be better than those of a 16x, it is easy to fall victim to hero worship and to place everyone in a sort of hierarchy. This can lead to misinformation (not to mention put you in a bad place personally). Yes, YHS-bound applicants generally know the system better than the average joe, but when the ideas of few, no matter how capable and knowledgeable, gets amplified and shapes the narrative, the message is especially susceptible to being misconstrued. Now, I doubt there is an example of a Yale student successfully changing a narrative for the worse completely. I am only saying that, when browsing a thread, be careful not to give exponentially greater weight to TLS all stars than to other users and not to discount an idea because of the user's less-than-stellar numbers or even his inability to put it as brilliantly as the Yale student likely did.

Do people actually do this? On subjects besides how to succeed on the LSAT, I mean?

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North
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Re: Things to keep in mind when reading TLS

Postby North » Wed Feb 27, 2013 12:04 pm

A. Nony Mouse wrote:Do people actually do this? On subjects besides how to succeed on the LSAT, I mean?

I thought the exact same thing. Was saving it for the next volley, though.

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Re: Things to keep in mind when reading TLS

Postby WhatOurBodiesAreFor » Wed Feb 27, 2013 12:06 pm

North wrote:
WhatOurBodiesAreFor wrote:3- Rank/prestige overrated. I speak here to the idea that Cornell greatly (greatly) outperforms Fordham and is greatly outperformed by NYU. Because I was a noob when I started to prepare for last school last year, I thought this was the case. It took a longer time on TLS than it would have by other means, such as speaking to current students and referring to NALP Directory, to get the more accurate take on the relevance of law school rankings.

Can you clarify whatever you're trying to say in this one?


Original post revised.
North wrote:
WhatOurBodiesAreFor wrote:3- Rank/prestige overrated. I speak here to the idea that Cornell greatly (greatly) outperforms Fordham and is greatly outperformed by NYU. Because I was a noob when I started to prepare for last school last year, I thought this was the case. It took a longer time on TLS than it would have by other means, such as speaking to current students and referring to NALP Directory, to get the more accurate take on the relevance of law school rankings.

Can you clarify whatever you're trying to say in this one?

WhatOurBodiesAreFor wrote:
North wrote:That's stupid. You know that these people are where almost all of the lies and misinformation we sort through comes from, right? I'd trust a knowledgeable 0L on TLS over a Dean or Boomer lawyer any day of the week.

It was. And you still need to add an age-related qualifier to legal professionals. A lot of people have gotten a lot of terrible, life-ruining advice from boomer legal professionals. And you need to make the connection between "don't listen to 0Ls" and the "unless they're informed" caveat more clear. You should also note that nearly all of the 0Ls on TLS who have given advice for a significant amount of time and have yet to be run out of town for spreading misinformation probably have a pretty good idea what they're talking about.


You're right. I will work on wording it better now.

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Re: Things to keep in mind when reading TLS

Postby WhatOurBodiesAreFor » Wed Feb 27, 2013 12:07 pm

Ruxin1 wrote:
North wrote:
WhatOurBodiesAreFor wrote:3- Rank/prestige overrated. I speak here to the idea that Cornell greatly (greatly) outperforms Fordham and is greatly outperformed by NYU. Because I was a noob when I started to prepare for last school last year, I thought this was the case. It took a longer time on TLS than it would have by other means, such as speaking to current students and referring to NALP Directory, to get the more accurate take on the relevance of law school rankings.

Can you clarify whatever you're trying to say in this one?



He is saying because a bunch of firms recruit at fordham that they are just as good as NYU and Cornell -- the dude is a fucking jackass, just because they show up at OCI doesnt mean they are hiring in DROVES.


Man, that's clearly not what I'm saying. Go see if you're happy with the revised post.

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Crowing
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Re: Things to keep in mind when reading TLS

Postby Crowing » Wed Feb 27, 2013 12:11 pm

North wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:Do people actually do this? On subjects besides how to succeed on the LSAT, I mean?

I thought the exact same thing. Was saving it for the next volley, though.


Yeah I've never done this or even heard of anybody doing this.

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North
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Re: Things to keep in mind when reading TLS

Postby North » Wed Feb 27, 2013 12:16 pm

WhatOurBodiesAreFor wrote:3- Rank/prestige overrated. I speak here to the idea that Cornell greatly (greatly) outperforms Fordham and is greatly outperformed by NYU. [Distracting stuff]. Fordham doesn't preclude you from Biglaw, and NYU doesn't automatically get you Biglaw.

Still doesn't make sense. What, exactly, are you getting at? Because this:
WhatOurBodiesAreFor wrote:Cornell greatly (greatly) outperforms Fordham and is greatly outperformed by NYU.
is largely true. And so is this:
WhatOurBodiesAreFor wrote:Fordham doesn't preclude you from Biglaw, and NYU doesn't automatically get you Biglaw.

I feel like you're trying to jam your thumb in the eye of some TLS wisdom, but I can't figure out which one. Clarify, dawg.

Crowing wrote:
North wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:Do people actually do this? On subjects besides how to succeed on the LSAT, I mean?

I thought the exact same thing. Was saving it for the next volley, though.


Yeah I've never done this or even heard of anybody doing this.

Yeah, you and I both have 173's. If we were to disagree about something, how would lurkers know who to listen to? Good thing this manifesto cleared that up.
Last edited by North on Wed Feb 27, 2013 12:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

WhatOurBodiesAreFor
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Re: Things to keep in mind when reading TLS

Postby WhatOurBodiesAreFor » Wed Feb 27, 2013 12:17 pm

A. Nony Mouse wrote:
WhatOurBodiesAreFor wrote:5- Be wary of judging the value or a user's ideas by the quality of their numbers. While a 175+'s points may generally be better than those of a 16x, it is easy to fall victim to hero worship and to place everyone in a sort of hierarchy. This can lead to misinformation (not to mention put you in a bad place personally). Yes, YHS-bound applicants generally know the system better than the average joe, but when the ideas of few, no matter how capable and knowledgeable, gets amplified and shapes the narrative, the message is especially susceptible to being misconstrued. Now, I doubt there is an example of a Yale student successfully changing a narrative for the worse completely. I am only saying that, when browsing a thread, be careful not to give exponentially greater weight to TLS all stars than to other users and not to discount an idea because of the user's less-than-stellar numbers or even his inability to put it as brilliantly as the Yale student likely did.

Do people actually do this? On subjects besides how to succeed on the LSAT, I mean?


Yes. I know I used to. After all, why shouldn't you give a 175/3.95's opinion regarding law school admissions more weight? I'd say you should if only because s/he's probably done a fair share of research into his decision.

Also, as looking at one's numbers is one of the only means by which to see how qualified s/he is, we do.

And, more generaly, you can't deny that some people do have a tendency to do this sort of thing. See gunners who are so driven by measures of success they lose any deeper perspective or those with an Ivy League education (I remember reading an article a while back by a Yale professor who said he looked down upon those without a top-tier education), then see how they regard those with less success and how different they regard those with more success than them.

ETA: I feel it is important to add because, while most of us don't, some do.

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Re: Things to keep in mind when reading TLS

Postby law2015 » Wed Feb 27, 2013 12:22 pm

I just want to comment that this is a stupid thread.

WhatOurBodiesAreFor
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Re: Things to keep in mind when reading TLS

Postby WhatOurBodiesAreFor » Wed Feb 27, 2013 12:28 pm

law2015 wrote:I just want to comment that this is a stupid thread.


At least you got to add this comment though

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North
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Re: Things to keep in mind when reading TLS

Postby North » Wed Feb 27, 2013 12:31 pm

law2015 wrote:I just want to comment that this is a stupid thread.

There could end up being something valuable here. I just get the impression that my man WOBAF started this out with the intention of it being some kind of Ninety-Five theses against the tried and true TLS wisdom and the way we distribute it, but it got diluted and muddled when he tried to make it sound super reasonable.




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