A Breakdown Of The Billable Hour from Yale

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Theopliske8711
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Re: A Breakdown Of The Billable Hour from Yale

Postby Theopliske8711 » Fri Feb 22, 2013 2:56 pm

Remmy wrote:
Theopliske8711 wrote:
alwayssunnyinfl wrote:
nickb285 wrote:That's the one where Homer gets a job with that tech company in Washington or something, right?


Yea. The episode is called "you only move twice". excellent episode!


Great episode, great season. I miss the old Simpsons...


Everyone does!

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holdencaulfield
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Re: A Breakdown Of The Billable Hour from Yale

Postby holdencaulfield » Fri Feb 22, 2013 3:00 pm

Remmy wrote:Just looked at a partner's billable time entry for yesterday:

Billing Rate: $750
Duration: 5.5 hours
Total: $4,125
Description: "Review documents."

He reviewed 3 deposition notices that were 2 pages in length...



Is this real life? If so, I'm fairly certain you work for a thief.

09042014
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Re: A Breakdown Of The Billable Hour from Yale

Postby 09042014 » Fri Feb 22, 2013 3:01 pm

holdencaulfield wrote:
Remmy wrote:Just looked at a partner's billable time entry for yesterday:

Billing Rate: $750
Duration: 5.5 hours
Total: $4,125
Description: "Review documents."

He reviewed 3 deposition notices that were 2 pages in length...



Is this real life? If so, I'm fairly certain you work for a thief.


It isn't theft if they willingly pay the bill.

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Remmy
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Re: A Breakdown Of The Billable Hour from Yale

Postby Remmy » Fri Feb 22, 2013 3:06 pm

holdencaulfield wrote:
Remmy wrote:Just looked at a partner's billable time entry for yesterday:

Billing Rate: $750
Duration: 5.5 hours
Total: $4,125
Description: "Review documents."

He reviewed 3 deposition notices that were 2 pages in length...



Is this real life? If so, I'm fairly certain you work for a thief.


One thing I've learned is that clients don't care about the size of the bill as long as the firm is winning its motions, aggressively deposing everyone in the case, finding embarrassing things in discovery, and ultimately prevailing with a satisfactory verdict.

The problem is, almost anyone can convince a client that these things are happening when they're obviously not...

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holdencaulfield
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Re: A Breakdown Of The Billable Hour from Yale

Postby holdencaulfield » Fri Feb 22, 2013 3:26 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
holdencaulfield wrote:
Remmy wrote:Just looked at a partner's billable time entry for yesterday:

Billing Rate: $750
Duration: 5.5 hours
Total: $4,125
Description: "Review documents."

He reviewed 3 deposition notices that were 2 pages in length...



Is this real life? If so, I'm fairly certain you work for a thief.


It isn't theft if they willingly pay the bill.



That's completely incorrect...at least in Texas.

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holdencaulfield
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Re: A Breakdown Of The Billable Hour from Yale

Postby holdencaulfield » Fri Feb 22, 2013 3:30 pm

Remmy wrote:
holdencaulfield wrote:
Remmy wrote:Just looked at a partner's billable time entry for yesterday:

Billing Rate: $750
Duration: 5.5 hours
Total: $4,125
Description: "Review documents."

He reviewed 3 deposition notices that were 2 pages in length...



Is this real life? If so, I'm fairly certain you work for a thief.


One thing I've learned is that clients don't care about the size of the bill as long as the firm is winning its motions, aggressively deposing everyone in the case, finding embarrassing things in discovery, and ultimately prevailing with a satisfactory verdict.

The problem is, almost anyone can convince a client that these things are happening when they're obviously not...



Caring about size of bill is not the same as caring if the firm is billing for hours that weren't actually worked.

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Remmy
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Re: A Breakdown Of The Billable Hour from Yale

Postby Remmy » Fri Feb 22, 2013 4:01 pm

holdencaulfield wrote:
Remmy wrote:
holdencaulfield wrote:
Remmy wrote:Just looked at a partner's billable time entry for yesterday:

Billing Rate: $750
Duration: 5.5 hours
Total: $4,125
Description: "Review documents."

He reviewed 3 deposition notices that were 2 pages in length...



Is this real life? If so, I'm fairly certain you work for a thief.


One thing I've learned is that clients don't care about the size of the bill as long as the firm is winning its motions, aggressively deposing everyone in the case, finding embarrassing things in discovery, and ultimately prevailing with a satisfactory verdict.

The problem is, almost anyone can convince a client that these things are happening when they're obviously not...



Caring about size of bill is not the same as caring if the firm is billing for hours that weren't actually worked.


I admire your honesty. No sarcasm, I genuinely do.

Earlier in the thread I said the following:

Remmy wrote:Everything is billable. People that are honest and self-cut time their time, don't pad their bills, or feel like some tasks may not be billable usually don't meet hours and are asked to leave.


Take that to heart my friend.

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holdencaulfield
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Re: A Breakdown Of The Billable Hour from Yale

Postby holdencaulfield » Fri Feb 22, 2013 4:31 pm

Remmy wrote:I admire your honesty. No sarcasm, I genuinely do.

Earlier in the thread I said the following:

Remmy wrote:Everything is billable. People that are honest and self-cut time their time, don't pad their bills, or feel like some tasks may not be billable usually don't meet hours and are asked to leave.


Take that to heart my friend.


I'm not sure you're following me. I agree with your earlier post. I'm not saying the partner shouldn't bill for every minute he reviews a depo notice, nor am I saying he shouldn't round his time up to the nearest 1/4 or 1/2 hour.

I'm saying he obviously billed for at least triple the time he actually worked. Surely I'm not the only one who sees this distinction.

09042014
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Re: A Breakdown Of The Billable Hour from Yale

Postby 09042014 » Fri Feb 22, 2013 4:39 pm

holdencaulfield wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:
holdencaulfield wrote:
Remmy wrote:Just looked at a partner's billable time entry for yesterday:

Billing Rate: $750
Duration: 5.5 hours
Total: $4,125
Description: "Review documents."

He reviewed 3 deposition notices that were 2 pages in length...



Is this real life? If so, I'm fairly certain you work for a thief.


It isn't theft if they willingly pay the bill.



That's completely incorrect...at least in Texas.


Well I'm assuming he just did a shitty long job. If he's faking it, it's fraud.

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Remmy
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Re: A Breakdown Of The Billable Hour from Yale

Postby Remmy » Fri Feb 22, 2013 4:40 pm

holdencaulfield wrote:
Remmy wrote:I admire your honesty. No sarcasm, I genuinely do.

Earlier in the thread I said the following:

Remmy wrote:Everything is billable. People that are honest and self-cut time their time, don't pad their bills, or feel like some tasks may not be billable usually don't meet hours and are asked to leave.


Take that to heart my friend.


I'm not sure you're following me. I agree with your earlier post. I'm not saying the partner shouldn't bill for every minute he reviews a depo notice, nor am I saying he shouldn't round his time up to the nearest 1/4 or 1/2 hour.

I'm saying he obviously billed for at least triple the time he actually worked. Surely I'm not the only one who sees this distinction.


I understood your distinction, but I'm not sure you understand mine.

Mine is as follows: people who question the logic behind billing at big firms, or do not employ the same logic that partners do in their own billing, usually don't last very long. Read Yale's link again. For someone to bill 2,200 hours, they need to have been doing work-related things for 3,000 hours.

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09042014
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Re: A Breakdown Of The Billable Hour from Yale

Postby 09042014 » Fri Feb 22, 2013 4:47 pm

I wonder where this TLS flame arose where people thing big lawyers write down like 30% or more of their actual work. From what I read on Xoxo, it's more like the inflate their hours by 30%.

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holdencaulfield
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Re: A Breakdown Of The Billable Hour from Yale

Postby holdencaulfield » Fri Feb 22, 2013 5:11 pm

Remmy wrote:I understood your distinction, but I'm not sure you understand mine.

Mine is as follows: people who question the logic behind billing at big firms, or do not employ the same logic that partners do in their own billing, usually don't last very long. Read Yale's link again. For someone to bill 2,200 hours, they need to have been doing work-related things for 3,000 hours.


Wot? You are right: I don't understand how that applies to the real life example we are discussing. Yale's breakdown is spot-on, but it doesn't condone or encourage billing clients for time not actually worked (e.g.- the other 800 hours you are doing work-related things).

Also, please explain what you mean by "logic behind billing at large firms." As 0L, I'm sure your insight will be an invaluable contribution to this thread.

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Remmy
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Re: A Breakdown Of The Billable Hour from Yale

Postby Remmy » Fri Feb 22, 2013 5:36 pm

holdencaulfield wrote:
Remmy wrote:I understood your distinction, but I'm not sure you understand mine.

Mine is as follows: people who question the logic behind billing at big firms, or do not employ the same logic that partners do in their own billing, usually don't last very long. Read Yale's link again. For someone to bill 2,200 hours, they need to have been doing work-related things for 3,000 hours.


Wot? You are right: I don't understand how that applies to the real life example we are discussing. Yale's breakdown is spot-on, but it doesn't condone or encourage billing clients for time not actually worked (e.g.- the other 800 hours you are doing work-related things).

Also, please explain what you mean by "logic behind billing at large firms." As 0L, I'm sure your insight will be an invaluable contribution to this thread.


Yes I'm a 0L. I'm also in a non-lawyer management position at a big firm. If you like, you can take what I say with a grain of salt.

Of course no one "condones" bill padding, but it is expected. It's so ingrained into the nature of the work performed at big firms, that people inflate their time without really thinking about it. Bill padding becomes the new normal, and anyone who is unfamiliar with this system has to choose to either immediately adapt and inflate their bills, or leave because they do not meet hours.

With client's who have given a firm an open tab to bill what they like, this is very typical. If you think I'm making this up, I encourage you to read this link: http://pdfserver.amlaw.com/ca/GREWALsanctionsorder.pdf

Ask yourself as you take a look at that judge's order: did everyone really diligently work every hour reported in these bills? If not, how much are they inflating their time? In my experience, this is very, very typical in big firms. I'm surprised it doesn't get more attention.

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Remmy
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Re: A Breakdown Of The Billable Hour from Yale

Postby Remmy » Fri Feb 22, 2013 5:38 pm

Desert Fox wrote:I wonder where this TLS flame arose where people thing big lawyers write down like 30% or more of their actual work. From what I read on Xoxo, it's more like the inflate their hours by 30%.


No, partners do not cut time. If anything, they will cut associate time, but not their own. The worst is with clients who are on a budget, and allocate, say, 20 hours to work on a project. An associate may spend 18 (diligent) hours working on it, but if the partner bills 7 hours for "reviewing documents" the associate must cut his hours to 13. Firms usually hate these kinds of clients, but in today's economic climate, some firms will take them in.

09042014
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Re: A Breakdown Of The Billable Hour from Yale

Postby 09042014 » Fri Feb 22, 2013 5:49 pm

Remmy wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:I wonder where this TLS flame arose where people thing big lawyers write down like 30% or more of their actual work. From what I read on Xoxo, it's more like the inflate their hours by 30%.


No, partners do not cut time. If anything, they will cut associate time, but not their own. The worst is with clients who are on a budget, and allocate, say, 20 hours to work on a project. An associate may spend 18 (diligent) hours working on it, but if the partner bills 7 hours for "reviewing documents" the associate must cut his hours to 13. Firms usually hate these kinds of clients, but in today's economic climate, some firms will take them in.


Firms typically don't hold cut hours against associates right? Unless you have constant problem with it.

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Remmy
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Re: A Breakdown Of The Billable Hour from Yale

Postby Remmy » Fri Feb 22, 2013 5:55 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
Remmy wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:I wonder where this TLS flame arose where people thing big lawyers write down like 30% or more of their actual work. From what I read on Xoxo, it's more like the inflate their hours by 30%.


No, partners do not cut time. If anything, they will cut associate time, but not their own. The worst is with clients who are on a budget, and allocate, say, 20 hours to work on a project. An associate may spend 18 (diligent) hours working on it, but if the partner bills 7 hours for "reviewing documents" the associate must cut his hours to 13. Firms usually hate these kinds of clients, but in today's economic climate, some firms will take them in.


Firms typically don't hold cut hours against associates right? Unless you have constant problem with it.


Some firms do, some firms don't. Depends on which end of the biglaw spectrum the firm is on. I once worked at a non-Vault, but market paying firm, and they did hold those hours against the associates. Now I work at a Vault firm, and they don't.

Regardless, associates that are staffed on projects where their time is cut are likely being staffed on the firm's less prestigious matters. They'll probably be on their way out soon, as they are being set up for failure to begin with by working on matters for stingy clients.

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holdencaulfield
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Re: A Breakdown Of The Billable Hour from Yale

Postby holdencaulfield » Fri Feb 22, 2013 7:48 pm

Remmy wrote:I'm a 0L.

Of course no one "condones" bill padding, but it is expected.


Duh. My whole point is that billing 5.5 hours for something a paralegal can do in 45 minutes is beyond bill padding.

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Remmy
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Re: A Breakdown Of The Billable Hour from Yale

Postby Remmy » Fri Feb 22, 2013 7:49 pm

holdencaulfield wrote:
Remmy wrote:I'm a 0L.

Of course no one "condones" bill padding, but it is expected.


Duh. My whole point is that billing 5.5 hours for something a paralegal can do in 45 minutes is beyond bill padding.


And I am somehow disagreeing with that?

Huey Freeman
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Re: A Breakdown Of The Billable Hour from Yale

Postby Huey Freeman » Fri Feb 22, 2013 8:01 pm

Tag

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holdencaulfield
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Re: A Breakdown Of The Billable Hour from Yale

Postby holdencaulfield » Fri Feb 22, 2013 9:43 pm

Remmy wrote:
holdencaulfield wrote:
Remmy wrote:I'm a 0L.

Of course no one "condones" bill padding, but it is expected.


Duh. My whole point is that billing 5.5 hours for something a paralegal can do in 45 minutes is beyond bill padding.


And I am somehow disagreeing with that?


Apparently, yes. If not, WTH have you been gabbing about? 1, I accuse partner of stealing; 2, you say no one cares how big bill is if the lawyer is winning; 3, I tell you that's different; 4, you tell me everyone does it, and if you don't, you'll get fired or something...also something about the logic of big firm billing, blah, blah blah. Feel free to re-read it all.

*sigh*

What a waste of time...




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