Making a write up on law school admissions

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ampersand5
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Making a write up on law school admissions

Postby ampersand5 » Mon Feb 11, 2013 5:33 pm

Hey all,

Last year I wrote up a write up on the lsat that was very well received (on this forum and outside). I was wondering if anybody could help me make a similar styled write up on law school admissions.

My goal is to compile all of the crucial information that students learn upon coming here when applying for law schools. Pretty much about the t14, realities of TTT, and admission requirements.

The goal is to get the information in the hands of first-third year college students to help put them in a situation where they can be in a position of choice when selecting law schools instead of needing a 179 just to get into a tier 2.

Please let me know if you have any interest in contributing or want to share any information that you think is relevant for me to include.

Thanks!

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northwood
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Re: Making a write up on law school admissions

Postby northwood » Mon Feb 11, 2013 5:40 pm

use your findings from teh LSAT and its coorelation to what schools those students go to ( and do a gpa breakdown)- you may find some of this infor on school websties of the median 25/ 75%.

then a brief discussion about the market, recieved dreams( IM A MAKE BIG MONEY!!!!) and realities. put in a few stories from TLS posters.
you could even do a simple survey about law school and ask 1LS and 2LS and 3LS if theyd do it again, and why. or what they would do differently( either by goingor not going or going to another school) to help get them to start thinking,but keep in mind you may only reach a very small number of those students.

ampersand5
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Re: Making a write up on law school admissions

Postby ampersand5 » Mon Feb 11, 2013 6:38 pm

HERE IS WHAT I HAVE SO FAR:

PLEASE ADD WHAT YOU THINK IS RELEVENT OR AT THE VERY LEAST, TELL ME WHAT I SHOULD ADD/EDIT.

---------------

The reason why I am writing this is because a large number of you have either already decided you want to attend law school, have it as an option at the back of your head or will later on decide you want to attend law school upon graduating and realizing that you have no other options. I am writing this because there is a lot of pertinent information that can make a great deal of difference in your lives. The first is that this can help you decide if you actually want to attend law school. The second is if you are still in school, it can help put you in the best position to having a financially successful career as an attorney.

The crux of this message is this: in order for one to become a successful lawyer, they have to do two things. 1) attend a high ranked law school and 2) excel academically in their first year of law school.

Most people only learn this valuable information after too late which is why I am relaying this message to those who can still change their future regarding law school. I am going to explain why one should only seek to attend certain law schools and how they can gain admission to those schools.


Most likely, everything you know about law school is wrong. Law school is not a guaranteed path to becoming a wealthy member of upperclass; in fact, it is one of the easiest paths to getting yourself $200 000 dollars in debt with limited employment prospects. The legal market right now is very poor, and unless you have connections, are extremely lucky or follow this path, you will likely end up graduating with a significant amount of debt and a future career as something other than a lawyer.

Law schools are classified into three distinct categories; top 14, tier 1 and everything else. Barring certain circumstances, one should never matriculate into any school that isn't at least a tier 1 law school. Similarly, in most circumstances, one should also not attend any school outside of the top 14.

The top 14 law schools are classified as such as ever since the first set of law school rankings, these same schools have been ranked the top 14. With that said, the positions of these schools within the top 14 have varied over the time. These 14 schools are the ones that give their students the best chance at becoming a successful lawyer. With that said, admission into one of these schools is still no guarantee that one will become a successful lawyer. Furthermore, within these top 14 there are three distinct groups. There is the top 3 (Yale, Harvard, Stanford), the top 6 (+ Columbia, Chicago and NYU) and the rest (Berkeley, Pennsylvania, Virginia, Michigan, Duke, Northwestern, Georgetown and Cornell).

For the most part, law schools all use the same basic formula for their admissions process (49% undergraduate GPA, 49% LSAT, 2% everything else). You heard that correct, the only thing that matters when applying to law schools are your undergraduate grades and your LSAT score. The good thing about this is that due to the fact that you are still in school, you are in a position to pull your GPA to a sufficient level allowing you to attend a worthwhile law school. The LSAT will be spoken about later but it is important to state one thing; if one dedicates enough time to it, almost anyone can achieve almost any score.

Here were the admissions index for the top law schools in 2013:

Yale 3.91 / 173
Harvard ~3.89 / 173
Columbia 3.72 / 172
NYU 3.71 / 172
Chicago 3.78 / 171
Stanford 3.88 / 170
Penn 3.85 / 170
UVA 3.85 / 170
Duke 3.80 / 170
Northwestern 3.80 / 170
Georgetown 3.67 / 170
Michigan 3.73 / 169
Vandy 3.72 / 169
Toronto: 3.85 / 168
UCLA 3.77 / 168
Cornell 3.70 / 168
Berkeley 3.80 / 167
Illinois 3.80 / 167
GW 3.79 / 167
UT 3.71 / 167
Minnesota 3.71 / 167
WUSTL 3.70 / 167
USC 3.64 / 167
Notre Dame 3.57 / 167
BU 3.72 / 166
Fordham 3.62 / 166
BC 3.61 / 166
W&L 3.43 / 166
Alabama 3.78 / 165
W&M 3.70 / 165
Indiana 3.78 / 164
BYU 3.75 / 164
SMU 3.75 / 164
George Mason 3.72 / 164
Georgia 3.70 / 164
Cardozo: 3.62 / 164
Colorado 3.61 / 164
UC Hastings 3.60 / 164
Ohio State 3.66 / 163
Washington 3.65 / 163
Wisconsin 3.63 / 163
UC Davis 3.63 / 163

you can use this site to see what schools are likely to accept you:
http://www.lawschoolpredictor.com/wp-co ... atcher.htm
and you can use this site to see where others with similar numbers to yours were accepted/denied:
http://www.lawschoolnumbers.com/


For information on the LSAT, please see here:
(link will be posted after)

The point of this information is that one should look at what the required admissions standards are for the top schools are and put themselves in a position to achieve the grades to receive acceptance to said schools. Upon glancing at the numbers, there is still some auxiliary information that should be noted.
There is another tool that can allow students to enter certain law schools that would otherwise be above their range. This called called the early decision. Some schools allow students to apply with what is called a "early decision". The "early decision" is a binding agreement that if accepted, one will attend the school. Frequently, if one applies for with an early decision application, the requirements are a bit lower. Another important thing to note is what are called splitters. These are people who fit above/below the 25%/75% medians for LSAT/GPA's for certain schools. For example, if someone has a low GPA but an extremely high LSAT score (and vice versa), they would be considered a splitter; there are certain schools which are very friendly to splitters and should be seriously considered.

A great example an early decision splitter friendly school is the University of Virginia School of Law. As stated previously, one should have a GPA/LSAT score of around 3.85 / 170 to attend. However, if a student applies for early decision with a GPA at 3.00 or above and an LSAT of 170 and above, they will almost for certain be accepted.

(INSERT LIST OF SPLITTER SCHOOLS)
(INSERT LIST OF ED FRIENDLY SCHOOLS)



NEED TO ADD:
EMPLOYMENT NUMBERS WHICH EXPLAIN WHY STUDENTS SHOULD ONLY GO TO A T14
THE SCHOOLS OUTSIDE OF THE T14 THAT STUDENTS MIGHT BE WORTHWHILE TO ATTEND AND THE CIRCUMSTANCES THAT CALL FOR IT
THE REASONS WHY SOMEONE SHOULD GO TO A TIER 1, 2 OR TTT

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Bikeflip
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Re: Making a write up on law school admissions

Postby Bikeflip » Mon Feb 11, 2013 6:48 pm

How similar will your write up be to Campos' book?

http://www.amazon.com/Dont-Law-School-U ... B009D13IA6

ampersand5
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Re: Making a write up on law school admissions

Postby ampersand5 » Mon Feb 11, 2013 6:50 pm

Bikeflip wrote:How similar will your write up be to Campos' book?

http://www.amazon.com/Dont-Law-School-U ... B009D13IA6

not similar at all.

mine will be very short. It will just say (as outlined above) pretty much: only go to a top school - this is what you need to do that, work hard to put yourself in a position to get there.

empyreanrrv
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Re: Making a write up on law school admissions

Postby empyreanrrv » Mon Feb 11, 2013 7:01 pm

In the beginning of your post, you say that "in order to be a successful lawyer, you have to 1. go to a good school, 2. do well there." I think this is one path, and probably the most common, but it is not the only way to be a successful lawyer.

As a foundation for your discussion of splitters, you might want to touch on the importance of median numbers and how it relates to USNWR--
Below both medians = not great chance of getting in, sticker if you do.
Above one median = decent shot of getting in, maybe some money
Above both medians = autoadmit, good amount of money

Also, is there an appreciable difference between a splitter above one median vs a splitter above the 75%? Is the 75% more likely to get money, or is the only relevant factor being above the median?

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Rahviveh
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Re: Making a write up on law school admissions

Postby Rahviveh » Mon Feb 11, 2013 7:04 pm

empyreanrrv wrote:In the beginning of your post, you say that "in order to be a successful lawyer, you have to 1. go to a good school, 2. do well there." I think this is one path, and probably the most common, but it is not the only way to be a successful lawyer.

As a foundation for your discussion of splitters, you might want to touch on the importance of median numbers and how it relates to USNWR--
Below both medians = not great chance of getting in, sticker if you do.
Above one median = decent shot of getting in, maybe some money
Above both medians = autoadmit, good amount of money

Also, is there an appreciable difference between a splitter above one median vs a splitter above the 75%? Is the 75% more likely to get money, or is the only relevant factor being above the median?


As soon as I saw that sentence I stopped reading. You need to qualify your language a bit more and frame it in the context of finding debt-paying work, not just being a "successful lawyer". You definitely don't need to go to a good school or even get good grades to be successful in many areas of law.

ampersand5
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Joined: Sun Feb 12, 2012 11:00 am

Re: Making a write up on law school admissions

Postby ampersand5 » Mon Feb 11, 2013 7:09 pm

thanks for the pointers. I live on the otherside of the world so its quite late for me. The diction will be changed; tonight I just wanted to get some thoughts down on paper.

Thanks!

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MikeSpivey
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Re: Making a write up on law school admissions

Postby MikeSpivey » Mon Feb 11, 2013 7:23 pm

Hey Amp, do you mind if I copy and post the index on my bog? ( http://spiveyconsulting.com/blog/ )

I can dig it out from my excel sheet but this is in the easiest form to read. You do good work!!!

ampersand5
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Re: Making a write up on law school admissions

Postby ampersand5 » Thu Feb 14, 2013 4:10 pm

ive been sick in bed the past few days so I haven't been able to write anything else yet.

== The data isn't mine, I got it from TLS

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MikeSpivey
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Re: Making a write up on law school admissions

Postby MikeSpivey » Thu Feb 14, 2013 5:15 pm

I'll throw it up there with my growing number of copy and pasted data :) Thanks.

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Icculus
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Re: Making a write up on law school admissions

Postby Icculus » Thu Feb 14, 2013 5:23 pm

I would mention that LSAT and GPA are not weighted equally and that LSAT is weighted more in admissions.

ampersand5
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Re: Making a write up on law school admissions

Postby ampersand5 » Fri Feb 15, 2013 4:48 am

thanks, your assistance in writing this helping friendly book is much appreciated.

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dingbat
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Re: Making a write up on law school admissions

Postby dingbat » Fri Feb 15, 2013 7:38 am

UC Davis is a top law school?

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Icculus
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Re: Making a write up on law school admissions

Postby Icculus » Fri Feb 15, 2013 9:52 am

ampersand5 wrote:thanks, your assistance in writing this helping friendly book is much appreciated.


:mrgreen:

rad lulz
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Re: Making a write up on law school admissions

Postby rad lulz » Fri Feb 15, 2013 10:01 am

"Tier 1" is a meaningless category and USNWR rankings don't matter.

empyreanrrv
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Re: Making a write up on law school admissions

Postby empyreanrrv » Fri Feb 15, 2013 10:47 am

rad lulz wrote:"Tier 1" is a meaningless category and USNWR rankings don't matter.


That said, there are certain reasonable categories that I've seen posted here that roughly follow the NLJ data.

HYS -> CCN -> MVPB -> DNCG -> UT/Vanderbilt/USC/UCLA -> BU/BC/GW/Fordham etc.

rad lulz
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Re: Making a write up on law school admissions

Postby rad lulz » Fri Feb 15, 2013 11:06 am

empyreanrrv wrote:
rad lulz wrote:"Tier 1" is a meaningless category and USNWR rankings don't matter.


That said, there are certain reasonable categories that I've seen posted here that roughly follow the NLJ data.

HYS -> CCN -> MVPB -> DNCG -> UT/Vanderbilt/USC/UCLA -> BU/BC/GW/Fordham etc.

MVPB -> DNCG is largely unsupported by the evidence

empyreanrrv
Posts: 170
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Re: Making a write up on law school admissions

Postby empyreanrrv » Fri Feb 15, 2013 11:46 am

rad lulz wrote:
empyreanrrv wrote:
rad lulz wrote:"Tier 1" is a meaningless category and USNWR rankings don't matter.


That said, there are certain reasonable categories that I've seen posted here that roughly follow the NLJ data.

HYS -> CCN -> MVPB -> DNCG -> UT/Vanderbilt/USC/UCLA -> BU/BC/GW/Fordham etc.

MVPB -> DNCG is largely unsupported by the evidence


Well without going into the specific order of the 7-14, my point is that there are categories in the T1 more precise than T14 -> rest.




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