Do accommodated LSAT scores count towards law school ranks?

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jreeve12
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Re: Do accommodated LSAT scores count towards law school ranks?

Postby jreeve12 » Sat Feb 09, 2013 11:18 am

"It would be absolutely beneficial for you to do so if the law do in fact change - you could end up someplace like UVA with a substantial scholarship with a 3.5 / 175+ (maybe even full ride if your LSAT score gets high enough)."

Thank you. That's the kind of positive advice and opinion that I was looking for.

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Tiago Splitter
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Re: Do accommodated LSAT scores count towards law school ranks?

Postby Tiago Splitter » Sat Feb 09, 2013 11:20 am

Again. 75th percentile LSAT doesn't matter for rankings. Median does.

As to the "real uphill battle" comment, I was saying you have a real uphill battle regardless of whether or not your accommodation is noted. I'm saying this as a 3.5 splitter myself who has been watching cycles of people with similar numbers for the last few years. My optimism remained high until I received a reject letter from Harvard in the first wave last year at this time.

20141023
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Re: Do accommodated LSAT scores count towards law school ranks?

Postby 20141023 » Sat Feb 09, 2013 11:23 am

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Last edited by 20141023 on Mon Sep 09, 2013 9:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

jreeve12
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Re: Do accommodated LSAT scores count towards law school ranks?

Postby jreeve12 » Sat Feb 09, 2013 11:36 am

Well, I can't say that I know anything about you, Tiago Splitter. I don't know if your numbers are real or if you ever even went to an undergrad institution. I suppose you could say the same thing about me. I do know that Harvard will likely reject as many 178/3.5 splitters as it accepts. A coin toss that can be influenced (but not determined) by a stunning application. It's a wash.

The irony about all of this is that I am ALMOST indifferent about whether or not I get into Harvard. The only Judge it MIGHT give me an advantage with would be Brett Kavanaugh, but I'd really rather clerk for Sutton, J. Harvie Wilkinson, or Neil Gorsuch anyway. All of them have a good track record of sending their clerks to Bristow Fellowships and further clerkships on the Supreme Court. All of them love UVA grads. J. Harvie Wilkinson even had a daughter who attended UVA.

The only thing I've been trying to get across to you guys is that you should never say never. Pessimism kills.

PS, the data tables you sent me confirms what my own chart showed. LSAT goes up or stays the same while GPA median goes down (at every top 9 school except Yale, which saw both go up).

Buck.Shot
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Re: Do accommodated LSAT scores count towards law school ranks?

Postby Buck.Shot » Sat Feb 09, 2013 11:37 am

Accommodating folks with disabilities by giving them more time to complete the LSAT is ridiculous. No client would be okay with you billing time-and-a-half on a project that an able minded lawyer can do faster. If you can't get into the law school of your choice without the LSAT time accommodation, then you do not deserve to go to that school at all.
Last edited by Buck.Shot on Sat Feb 09, 2013 12:49 pm, edited 2 times in total.

jreeve12
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Re: Do accommodated LSAT scores count towards law school ranks?

Postby jreeve12 » Sat Feb 09, 2013 11:44 am

"Accommodating folks with disabilities by giving them more time to complete the LSAT is ridiculous. No client would be okay with you billing time-and-a-half on a project that an able minded lawyer can do faster. If you can't get into the law school of your choice without the LSAT time accommodation, then you do not deserve to go to that school at all."

That's by far the most ignorant comment I've seen on here this far. The question is not necessarily how long it takes an attorney (or a clerk in my case, hopefully) to complete a task, but how good that work is in relation to the time spent. Is the client getting his money's worth? If your work is being done by a former supreme court clerk, for example, that time is worth A LOT even if he he does take him a couple minutes longer to complete a task. Maybe he has become so efficient at it that it actually DOESN'T take him longer than someone else.

Besides, who are we kidding, Buck. shot? You think that BigLaw doesn't milk the clock like it's a dance?

jreeve12
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Re: Do accommodated LSAT scores count towards law school ranks?

Postby jreeve12 » Sat Feb 09, 2013 11:51 am

I actually take that back, kappycaft1. I guess Chicago,UVA, and Penn actually DID see their medians go up by a hair last year according to your chart

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Dmini7
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Re: Do accommodated LSAT scores count towards law school ranks?

Postby Dmini7 » Sat Feb 09, 2013 11:51 am

jreeve12 wrote:"Accommodating folks with disabilities by giving them more time to complete the LSAT is ridiculous. No client would be okay with you billing time-and-a-half on a project that an able minded lawyer can do faster. If you can't get into the law school of your choice without the LSAT time accommodation, then you do not deserve to go to that school at all."

That's by far the most ignorant comment I've seen on here this far. The question is not necessarily how long it takes an attorney (or a clerk in my case, hopefully) to complete a task, but how good that work is in relation to the time spent. Is the client getting his money's worth? If your work is being done by a former supreme court clerk, for example, that time is worth A LOT even if he he does take him a couple minutes longer to complete a task. Maybe he has become so efficient at it that it actually DOESN'T take him longer than someone else.

Besides, who are we kidding, Buck. shot? You think that BigLaw doesn't milk the clock like it's a dance?


Although I agree buck.shots comment was ignorant and uncalled for, you are sort of undermining the idea of extra time on your LSAT here. If we assume that we are judging how good a work is in relation to the time spent, the LsAT for those with modified times should also have a modified score. I think the sample size of those needing and utilizing modified times is too small to effectively do this though. Out of curiosity, have you tried testing yourself under standard time constraints? Is the drop off in your score extreme? If UVa is your top choice, and you can still score a 170 without extra time, why not just take it under normal conditions? Also to be honest, taking it under normal conditions can't hurt your case. If anything else you provide an addendum explaining to them your need for extra time and proof of your actual ability when you are given what was needed.

20141023
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Re: Do accommodated LSAT scores count towards law school ranks?

Postby 20141023 » Sat Feb 09, 2013 11:53 am

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RhymesLikeDimes
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Re: Do accommodated LSAT scores count towards law school ranks?

Postby RhymesLikeDimes » Sat Feb 09, 2013 11:55 am

While a bit harsh, I don't think that comment on accommodating those with disabilities was all that far off. The good clerkships are murderously competitive. Planning on picking one up is a silly thing to do. And listening to someone with a <3.5 GPA talk as though they can run laps around everyone else is quite amusing. If you think you have the capacity to overcome your disability once you hit the job market, why aren't you doing it now for the LSAT? You are using the same logic that most TTT students use to justify their decision: "I'll just outperform everyone later." It doesn't work like that.

Buck.Shot
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Re: Do accommodated LSAT scores count towards law school ranks?

Postby Buck.Shot » Sat Feb 09, 2013 12:39 pm

jreeve12 wrote:"Accommodating folks with disabilities by giving them more time to complete the LSAT is ridiculous. No client would be okay with you billing time-and-a-half on a project that an able minded lawyer can do faster. If you can't get into the law school of your choice without the LSAT time accommodation, then you do not deserve to go to that school at all."

That's by far the most ignorant comment I've seen on here this far. The question is not necessarily how long it takes an attorney (or a clerk in my case, hopefully) to complete a task, but how good that work is in relation to the time spent. Is the client getting his money's worth? If your work is being done by a former supreme court clerk, for example, that time is worth A LOT even if he he does take him a couple minutes longer to complete a task. Maybe he has become so efficient at it that it actually DOESN'T take him longer than someone else.

Besides, who are we kidding, Buck. shot? You think that BigLaw doesn't milk the clock like it's a dance?


Milking the clock is unethical, and in violation of the MRPC. Not to mention it is a good way to lose clients.

You assume that your final work product will be superior to that produced by your able minded colleagues. This is not the case. If I was a client, I don't care whether the solution to my problem comes from a former SCOTUS clerk or a former district court clerk. Its the same solution to the same problem. Your solution, however, costs $750, while the answer provided by your competitor would only cost $500.

Clients don't give a fuck whether the associate working on their case was a former SCOTUS clerk. And your undeserved elitism exemplifies why our generation is made up of a bunch of punk ass bitches.

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North
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Re: Do accommodated LSAT scores count towards law school ranks?

Postby North » Sat Feb 09, 2013 12:58 pm

Just take the LSAT under the same conditions as everyone else if you're so brilliant, dude. I mean, you know you've got the SCOTUS Clerkship locked down, how is the LSAT a challenge? If you won't, you deserve the asterisk. Deal with it.

Buck.Shot
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Re: Do accommodated LSAT scores count towards law school ranks?

Postby Buck.Shot » Sat Feb 09, 2013 1:06 pm

I have a disability. It's called I-can't-break-175-without-extra-time-itis. Can I have more time on the LSAT please?

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fatduck
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Re: Do accommodated LSAT scores count towards law school ranks?

Postby fatduck » Sat Feb 09, 2013 1:24 pm

man this thread is retarded

to everyone saying "LOL R U GONNA GET MORE TIME IN BIGLAWZ CRIPPLE?":

just go fuck yourselves. you have no idea, at all, what you're talking about. go read the ADA and come back when you're sorry.

to OP:

get over it. your LSAT doesn't count, just like international students' GPAs don't count. if you want to get some idea of your chances, i'd look into how international reverse splitters perform, since they're in a similar boat. if you think your GPA isn't reflective of your ability, write an addendum. done.

20141023
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Re: Do accommodated LSAT scores count towards law school ranks?

Postby 20141023 » Sat Feb 09, 2013 1:34 pm

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somewhatwayward
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Re: Do accommodated LSAT scores count towards law school ranks?

Postby somewhatwayward » Sat Feb 09, 2013 2:28 pm

Wow, OP....where to begin...

You are right that schools have little incentive to choose you from a ranking perspective although they also look at LSAT scores to gauge your chances to succeed at the school and, if you really score a 175, at least you will pass that test. If the asterisk is going to appear, I think you ay as well write your essay about being a person with a disability and how you want to fight for the rights of the disabled. I don't think anything should be changed about the way they do it now, though. A huge component of the LSAT is the time pressure. Everyone would score better if they had an extra five minutes, let alone time and a half. I get it that you are starting behind everyone, but I have always wondered how they decide time and a half is the right amount for basically every disability. Somewhere you said it would only take you a few more minutes to complete a task than your non-disabled peer....so why do you need time and a half? Seems like overkill. Also, as someone mentioned, if you are really worried about giving the school an incentive to accept you, take the LSAT without accommodation if you can break 170/1. UVA will take you ED if you can do that.

Next, you have a major entitlement complex speaking about clerking for the Supreme Court before you have even begun law school (btw, this has nothing to do with having a disability....[i]anyone[i] implying that they will have clerkship offers from the Supreme Court and multiple Circuit Court judges before they have tested their legal skills at all is seriously deluded). You have zero evidence to indicate that you will be top 10-20% at HYS, or top 1-5% at any other T14. You have a 3.5 GPA in undergrad where classes are uncurved, and you have a phantom 175+ LSAT score. The true answer to this inquiry should be come back when you have a actual LSAT score. The road is littered with the corpses of people with low undergrad GPAs who had T14 dreams because they were certain they could break 170, let alone 175, on the real deal. Have some respect for your future classmates before you assume you are going to best them all as well as the other brilliant people competing for clerkships. If you could barely manage a 3.5 in undergrad, what makes you think you can break a 3.5 (or its equivalent at HYS) in law school where the people are smarter and there is a mandatory curve with few high grades? 3.5 is not enough for the Supreme Court (or, likely, Circuit Court) anyway, but putting that aside for the purposes of this inquiry.

Lastly, unless there is a big change due to dropping applications, a non-URM 180/3.5 has a single-digit shot at HYS although you might be able to capitalize on that if you do a good job with the disability essay. During my cycle, '09-'10, multiple 179/180 3.8s got flat out rejected from all of them. You can't use LSP or hourumud because they don't take into account GPA floors and they don't take into account softs that actually matter - eg, HYS will often take their own undergrads whose GPAs fall below the floor. All of the non-URM sub-3.8 HLS admits I know went to Harvard for undergrad. For ranking purposes, it makes sense to choose people over both medians but possibly under 75th percentiles over splitters. Some T14s do choose splitters more regularly...UVA, NU, GULC, and Penn. As you can see, HYS is not among those because they have the luxury of taking only the very best and knowing that they will actually matriculate. I mean, sure, NU will accept the 180/3.9, but he's likely heading to HYS, so NU will also take the 180/3.5 and the 170/3.0. HLS would rather have the 173/3.87 over the 176-80/3.5. That's life. No one is saying don't apply. But don't spout off things that those of us who have been around here for years and have observed cycles multiple cycles know empirically to be untrue.

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Crowing
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Re: Do accommodated LSAT scores count towards law school ranks?

Postby Crowing » Sat Feb 09, 2013 4:42 pm

flame, and a pathetic one too.

nobody can be this arrogant and this retarded at the same time.

nordi
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Re: Do accommodated LSAT scores count towards law school ranks?

Postby nordi » Sat Feb 09, 2013 10:25 pm

Tossing in my two cents. It's an interesting topic. As a test under non-standard conditions doesn't affect a school either positively or negatively, you would logically be treated as someone exactly at every school's median (logical not necessarily legally, and the difference may matter, because they aren't suppose to discriminate). Thus, they are likely to place more emphasis than usual on your GPA. If your GPA is above median, they're likely to thing you're a good choice for rankings. If not, you're not. From a ranking perspective, it really is that simply.

However, I think getting defensive over the whole thing is stupid. The LSAT really is about speed. Most law school applicants are competing on an even playing field with what God gave them. You got a boost from some doctor, congress, the judicial branch, the American education system, and someone at LSAC. Good for you, wish I was so lucky. Stop being defensive about it. You're taking the test under different conditions. Just accept that it's not the same thing (Are we having this debate for real or just for the heck of it?).

At least you're not trying to become a doctor with extra time on the MCAT and in med school. My lawyer can charge me a third less than market, and assuming he doesn't have to think on his feet in front of a judge (i.e. no litigation for you), that'll be fine. My doc can't have 1.5 times to complete my open heart surgery.

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you'rethemannowdawg
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Re: Do accommodated LSAT scores count towards law school ranks?

Postby you'rethemannowdawg » Sat Feb 09, 2013 10:43 pm

fatduck wrote:man this thread is retarded

to everyone saying "LOL R U GONNA GET MORE TIME IN BIGLAWZ CRIPPLE?":

just go fuck yourselves. you have no idea, at all, what you're talking about. go read the ADA and come back when you're sorry.

to OP:

get over it. your LSAT doesn't count, just like international students' GPAs don't count. if you want to get some idea of your chances, i'd look into how international reverse splitters perform, since they're in a similar boat. if you think your GPA isn't reflective of your ability, write an addendum. done.


+1

ITT: TLSers who are angry that someone they know absolutely nothing about got more time on the LSAT than them.

jreeve12
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Re: Do accommodated LSAT scores count towards law school ranks?

Postby jreeve12 » Sun Feb 10, 2013 1:05 am

I never said that I would ultimately be a SCOTUS clerk, but I DO have a good basis to say that I would be in at least the top 2-5% at whatever program I am accepted into. Will that translate into a clerkship with Jeffrey Sutton? Maybe, maybe not, but I like my odds!

Let's look at it this way. I have an overall IQ of 153 and a verbal reasoning sub-score of 160 (more highly correlated with success in law school than the LSAT). There are only 30,000 people in the entire United States. Assuming an average class size of 600, then if EVERY person with an IQ that high went to Harvard Law since 1962, then Harvard Law could BARELY fill its class with people with those scores. Of course, far from 100% of people with those IQ scores, I'd be SHOCKED if Harvard Law got even 10% of people with those scores. What do you think it's going to be at UVA? 1%? MAYBE? I have actually had a 4.0 for the last 3 semesters of college. I told you that we lived in the age of the genius slacker, and in addition to some poor grades from my undergrad, I made some poor choices from my freshman year that are dragging down my grades. I rushed and became too involved in my fraternity, became too caught up in college life, and paid the consequences. I am REALLY good at leveraging my intellectual talents towards compensating for a very mild cognitive deficit, and I will continue to kick ass at whatever law school I attend. You think I'm just going to slack off after making up my mind to pursue a clerkship wit a feeder-judge? Please. As I've said, my disability actually gives me an advantage: I have to work hard from day 1, and, when I've made the decision to succeed, I don't let up until it's over. I will import that same intensity wherever I go in life. I am no longer some impressionable young freshman chump.

By the way, am I the only one here who recognizes the irony of some entitled "top tier" student labeling truly accomplished lawyers like Jeffrey Sutton (who went to Ohio State and clerked formLewis Powell) and Hugo Black (need I say more?) as "Third Tier Toilet" and then proceeds to label ME as arrogant? Look in the mirror, "pals."

20141023
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Re: Do accommodated LSAT scores count towards law school ranks?

Postby 20141023 » Sun Feb 10, 2013 1:11 am

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Last edited by 20141023 on Mon Sep 09, 2013 9:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Dmini7
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Re: Do accommodated LSAT scores count towards law school ranks?

Postby Dmini7 » Sun Feb 10, 2013 1:18 am

jreeve12 wrote:I never said that I would ultimately be a SCOTUS clerk, but I DO have a good basis to say that I would be in at least the top 2-5% at whatever program I am accepted into. Will that translate into a clerkship with Jeffrey Sutton? Maybe, maybe not, but I like my odds!

Let's look at it this way. I have an overall IQ of 153 and a verbal reasoning sub-score of 160 (more highly correlated with success in law school than the LSAT). There are only 30,000 people in the entire United States. Assuming an average class size of 600, then if EVERY person with an IQ that high went to Harvard Law since 1962, then Harvard Law could BARELY fill its class with people with those scores. Of course, far from 100% of people with those IQ scores, I'd be SHOCKED if Harvard Law got even 10% of people with those scores. What do you think it's going to be at UVA? 1%? MAYBE? I have actually had a 4.0 for the last 3 semesters of college. I told you that we lived in the age of the genius slacker, and in addition to some poor grades from my undergrad, I made some poor choices from my freshman year that are dragging down my grades. I rushed and became too involved in my fraternity, became too caught up in college life, and paid the consequences. I am REALLY good at leveraging my intellectual talents towards compensating for a very mild cognitive deficit, and I will continue to kick ass at whatever law school I attend. You think I'm just going to slack off after making up my mind to pursue a clerkship wit a feeder-judge? Please. As I've said, my disability actually gives me an advantage: I have to work hard from day 1, and, when I've made the decision to succeed, I don't let up until it's over. I will import that same intensity wherever I go in life. I am no longer some impressionable young freshman chump.

By the way, am I the only one here who recognizes the irony of some entitled "top tier" student labeling truly accomplished lawyers like Jeffrey Sutton (who went to Ohio State and clerked formLewis Powell) and Hugo Black (need I say more?) as "Third Tier Toilet" and then proceeds to label ME as arrogant? Look in the mirror, "pals."


It is now time to give up on providing further information to him. He has the Special Snowflake Syndrome. No one cares about your IQ. Go join Mensa if you think IQ means everything. Also, you keep stating you have a very mild deficit. It will continue to make people think you are not deserving of the time and a half. Saying you will be in at least the top 2-5% has no basis. Nothing you told me makes me believe that statement. Also, I would love a source stating the sub-score has a stronger correlation towards success than the LSAT.

(I agree he is a flame, but just in case this person seriously thinks they are the chosen one, I decided to provide a response).

jreeve12
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Re: Do accommodated LSAT scores count towards law school ranks?

Postby jreeve12 » Sun Feb 10, 2013 1:24 am

All right you guys. You win. I'm checking out. This forum has wasted my time with a debate that has absolutely nothing to do with my original question. One last promise: if I fall below the top 5% at the best law school I am accepted into, or if I score below a 170 on the LSAT, I'll shave David Axelrod's moustache FOR HIM.

Night.

20141023
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Re: Do accommodated LSAT scores count towards law school ranks?

Postby 20141023 » Sun Feb 10, 2013 1:32 am

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Crowing
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Re: Do accommodated LSAT scores count towards law school ranks?

Postby Crowing » Sun Feb 10, 2013 1:34 am

kappycaft1 wrote:Also, I didn't realize the population of the United States was so small.


I kind of think you're trolling w/ that comment kappycaft1, but with you, I'm not so sure.

I like how this thread has devolved into an IQ stroking contest so now I get to swing my e-dick around too. Since my school made me take the WISC IV as a kid and scored a 160 IQ (which I think is the WISC IV cap) and I got a 99th percentile LSAT without time accommodations clearly I am going to slaughter the OP in LS with my natural born intellectual awesomeness.

But it's okay bro; I'm sure you'll get into HLS with that 3.5 and trash 95% of your class who had their smart friends/parents/dogs score 175+ for them and plan on just cruising through LS because they took 250k+ debt just for funsies.

HTH




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