Do accommodated LSAT scores count towards law school ranks?

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John_rizzy_rawls
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Re: Do accommodated LSAT scores count towards law school ranks?

Postby John_rizzy_rawls » Wed Feb 27, 2013 6:56 pm

A → B ⊨ ¬B → ¬A wrote:
John_rizzy_rawls wrote:
snapdragon25 wrote:
John_rizzy_rawls wrote:THE PAST IS PROLOGUE.


Hahahaha @ this guy


Seriously, how could I resist?

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=205028

lol. tyft
Are we not NOBLE SCHOLARS of PHILOSOPHY, DICTION, and RHETORIC?
jreeve12 wrote:Harsh. Though reading through my post again, I probably could have done with a shorter, more concise sentence here and there. One of my favorite writing models is Anthony Kennedy. He has a writing style that you either love or hate...

How NOBLE in REASON, how INFINITE in FACULTY!


:lol:

People that speak like this make me want to slaughter infants.

pmova22
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Re: Do accommodated LSAT scores count towards law school ranks?

Postby pmova22 » Sun Mar 03, 2013 5:28 am

Hey everyone. Came across this interesting news and thought I'd post it on here to see if anyone knows more info about this. According to a new CALIFORNIA education code, it is now illegal for the LSAC to report that you took the test with accommodations. Does anyone have more info on this?

On October 18, the U.S. District Court for the Northern District of California granted an order allowing the Justice Department to intervene in a lawsuit against LSAC by the California Department of Fair Employment and Housing Employment and 22 prospective students. With the order, the lawsuit is expanded to a class action on behalf of all prospective law students with disabilities nationwide.

LSAC administrates the LSAT, the standard test required for admission into all American Bar Association-approved law schools.

The lawsuit takes aim at LSAC’s practice of “flagging” prospective law students whom received accommodations when taking the LSAT.

Specifically, when sending information to law schools regarding students’ testing scores, the LSAC includes a cautionary statement: that the results “should be interpreted with great sensitivity and flexibility.” LSAC also does not include a percentile rank for these students scores, furthering distinguishing these students from their peers solely on the basis of their disabilities.

For the DOJ, these practices violate the Americans with Disabilities Act by unfairly stigmatizing students with disabilities and increasing the likelihood that their scores will be viewed as illegitimate.

“As a result, LSAC has denied prospective law students with disabilities a full and equal opportunity to demonstrate their knowledge and aptitude and to fairly compete with educational and employment opportunities for which the LSAT is a prerequisite,” the DOJ stated in its complaint.

With the exception of the Medical College Admission Test, the SAT and all other major standardized tests ended this flagging practice a decade ago, according to an article in the National Law Journal. On September 26, Governor Jerry Brown signed a bill, set to go into effect January 1, outlawing these flagging practices in the state of California.

The lawsuit alleged accuses LSAC of consistently failing to provide proper testing accommodations, such as screen readers and loosened times and location restrictions. Students denied requests for accommodations are frequently given cursory responses, providing little guidance for them to modify or appeal their requests.

Additionally, LSAC requires students requesting accommodations to provide “excessive documentation,” even when they have a documented history of similar testing accommodations.

“LSAC’s discriminatory policies in the administration of the LSAT adversely impact people with disabilities nationwide. This is a systemic problem with serious consequences that echo throughout such individuals’ academic and employment careers, and it needs to be addressed as such,” said Thomas E. Perez, assistant attorney general for the DOJ’s Civil Rights Division, in a news release.

In February 2012, the ABA’s House of Delegates unanimously passed a resolution urging LSAC to modify its procedures for accommodating students with disabilities.


The original lawsuit survived a motion to dismiss by LSAC in September, according to the National Law Journal article.
[/b]


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John_rizzy_rawls
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Re: Do accommodated LSAT scores count towards law school ranks?

Postby John_rizzy_rawls » Sun Mar 03, 2013 6:58 am

Nope.

LSAC filed a lawsuit against this "law" from the California legislature. It's enforcement has been stopped due to a granted injunction by the judge. The same judge says LSAC will probably win it's case and CA legislature will need to think of something else.

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Re: Do accommodated LSAT scores count towards law school ranks?

Postby longlivetheking » Sun Mar 03, 2013 1:02 pm

holy fuck can this thread die already?

jreeve12
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Re: Do accommodated LSAT scores count towards law school ranks?

Postby jreeve12 » Sun Mar 03, 2013 3:31 pm

I don' know, Rawls. LSAC sure is taking A LOT of heat for flagging these scores. They now have the entire weight of the Justice Department arrayed against them. Even if they lose at the District Court, they've still got the Ninth Circuit to get through, which is likely to give the broadest reading possible of the ADA. I have a very hard time seeing LSAC's policies coming out of this unscathed.

However, from this thread and the words of Mark Spivey, I am even less convinced that any of this ultimately matters. It is next to impossible to systematically discriminate against accommodated scores for ranking purposes. It would come out in the admissions data, and then that law school would be screwed.

That doesn't mean, of course, that an accommodated score might be a discriminated against on a case by case basis, but I have yet to see such a case.

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Re: Do accommodated LSAT scores count towards law school ranks?

Postby A → B ⊨ ¬B → ¬A » Sun Mar 03, 2013 8:38 pm

jreeve12 wrote:I don' know, Rawls. LSAC sure is taking A LOT of heat for flagging these scores. They now have the entire weight of the Justice Department arrayed against them. Even if they lose at the District Court, they've still got the Ninth Circuit to get through, which is likely to give the broadest reading possible of the ADA. I have a very hard time seeing LSAC's policies coming out of this unscathed.

However, from this thread and the words of Mark Spivey, I am even less convinced that any of this ultimately matters. It is next to impossible to systematically discriminate against accommodated scores for ranking purposes. It would come out in the admissions data, and then that law school would be screwed.

That doesn't mean, of course, that an accommodated score might be a discriminated against on a case by case basis, but I have yet to see such a case.


If LSAC has to change its policies on extended time, then they'll have to throw out logic games. Every LG question is 100% deductively knowable, and any chimp given enough time can go -0 on that section.

Schools will never systematically discriminate negatively against accommodated scores unless all accommodated testers also have a GPA below median. Since they are only reporting GPA for those applicants, the ones with good GPAs will benefit the school regardless of their LSAT score, and the ones that will hurt the school with a bad GPA will be justifiably rejected because they have a bad GPA.

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Re: Do accommodated LSAT scores count towards law school ranks?

Postby Ramius » Sun Mar 03, 2013 8:46 pm

jreeve12 wrote:I don' know, Rawls. LSAC sure is taking A LOT of heat for flagging these scores. They now have the entire weight of the Justice Department arrayed against them. Even if they lose at the District Court, they've still got the Ninth Circuit to get through, which is likely to give the broadest reading possible of the ADA. I have a very hard time seeing LSAC's policies coming out of this unscathed.

However, from this thread and the words of Mark Spivey, I am even less convinced that any of this ultimately matters. It is next to impossible to systematically discriminate against accommodated scores for ranking purposes. It would come out in the admissions data, and then that law school would be screwed.

That doesn't mean, of course, that an accommodated score might be a discriminated against on a case by case basis, but I have yet to see such a case.


Regardless of whether law schools discriminate against your LSAT score, I will discriminate against you and your score for all eternity for creating this thread. I hope the ADCOMMS drop jelly on your file and read any "17x" as a "14x." Justice will ultimately be served.

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Re: Do accommodated LSAT scores count towards law school ranks?

Postby jreeve12 » Mon Mar 04, 2013 9:29 am

A → B ⊨ ¬B → ¬A wrote:
jreeve12 wrote:
Schools will never systematically discriminate negatively against accommodated scores unless all accommodated testers also have a GPA below median. Since they are only reporting GPA for those applicants, the ones with good GPAs will benefit the school regardless of their LSAT score, and the ones that will hurt the school with a bad GPA will be justifiably rejected because they have a bad GPA.


Sounds great, even slightly reasonable. But where is your evidence?? I never intended this forum to be a venue for expressions of wishful thinking or how YOU would make admissions decisions if YOU were running a law school admissions office.

The fact is that UVA would have to explain how someone with a 170+ and a 3.5 is pretty much guaranteed admission to the law school through ED, but my accommodated score got rejected with that same GPA. If they can't come up with a very good answer, someone in my position has just won the lottery. They discriminate at their greatest peril, so the question I would ask them if this goes on would be, "Is it worth it?"

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Re: Do accommodated LSAT scores count towards law school ranks?

Postby Icculus » Mon Mar 04, 2013 1:04 pm

jreeve12 wrote:
A → B ⊨ ¬B → ¬A wrote:
jreeve12 wrote:
Schools will never systematically discriminate negatively against accommodated scores unless all accommodated testers also have a GPA below median. Since they are only reporting GPA for those applicants, the ones with good GPAs will benefit the school regardless of their LSAT score, and the ones that will hurt the school with a bad GPA will be justifiably rejected because they have a bad GPA.


Sounds great, even slightly reasonable. But where is your evidence?? I never intended this forum to be a venue for expressions of wishful thinking or how YOU would make admissions decisions if YOU were running a law school admissions office.

The fact is that UVA would have to explain how someone with a 170+ and a 3.5 is pretty much guaranteed admission to the law school through ED, but my accommodated score got rejected with that same GPA. If they can't come up with a very good answer, someone in my position has just won the lottery. They discriminate at their greatest peril, so the question I would ask them if this goes on would be, "Is it worth it?"


I think you are putting too much stock in the "guaranteed admission" assertion. Not to menion, if the school falls back on the hollistic approach of admissions I am sure they can come up with another reason to deny you. On top of that, admissions decisions are generally not appealable nor reviewable and I don't think any court in its right mind would let you litigate your way in to UVA. The very idea of admissions is to discriminate among people and determine who should attend. While there may be a case to prevent LSAC from flagging scores achieved with extra time (I personally think the flagging is okay for reasons already mentioned) there is no case to argue UVA had to let you in because they let some other guy in with your stats.

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Re: Do accommodated LSAT scores count towards law school ranks?

Postby A → B ⊨ ¬B → ¬A » Mon Mar 04, 2013 1:59 pm

jreeve12 wrote:
A → B ⊨ ¬B → ¬A wrote:
Schools will never systematically discriminate negatively against accommodated scores unless all accommodated testers also have a GPA below median. Since they are only reporting GPA for those applicants, the ones with good GPAs will benefit the school regardless of their LSAT score, and the ones that will hurt the school with a bad GPA will be justifiably rejected because they have a bad GPA.


Sounds great, even slightly reasonable. But where is your evidence?? I never intended this forum to be a venue for expressions of wishful thinking or how YOU would make admissions decisions if YOU were running a law school admissions office.

The fact is that UVA would have to explain how someone with a 170+ and a 3.5 is pretty much guaranteed admission to the law school through ED, but my accommodated score got rejected with that same GPA. If they can't come up with a very good answer, someone in my position has just won the lottery. They discriminate at their greatest peril, so the question I would ask them if this goes on would be, "Is it worth it?"


So, not only do you expect to sneak in unnoticed with your brain cripple score, but you think you'll win the lottery if you get rejected for being correctly identified as not quite as smart as the other boys and girls?
UVA would just say your GPA is below median. That's the end. It wouldn't be your accommodated score that's rejected; it's your too-shitty-for-UVA GPA. You have to offer the school something that will give them a reason to accept you, and your worthless LSAT score is worthless to them. Things would be much more holistic if there were no rankings or if USNWR factored in dumbasses and personal statements. I'm sure your personal statement gets everyone teary-eyed and erect, so maybe write US News and see where that gets you. Try spinning your abrasive aspiness as something rare and unique. Clearly you're an experienced debater, so I wouldn't yet rule out the possibility of going through your rejection letters one by one and giving those unfair adcoms the sweet taste of well-reasoned and scholarly arguments for why they should reverse their decisions, and maybe a public debate on an elevated stage in the university quad for the most stubborn ones.
Whatever you decide, make sure you contact LSAC immediately to guarantee that every school before opening your file heeds the warning printed in bold: "Is it worth it?"


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Re: Do accommodated LSAT scores count towards law school ranks?

Postby 06102016 » Tue Mar 05, 2013 1:25 am

..

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Re: Do accommodated LSAT scores count towards law school ranks?

Postby John_rizzy_rawls » Tue Mar 05, 2013 1:29 am

slack_academic wrote:bump


Die.

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Re: Do accommodated LSAT scores count towards law school ranks?

Postby 06102016 » Tue Mar 05, 2013 1:31 am

..

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Re: Do accommodated LSAT scores count towards law school ranks?

Postby UselessKnowledge » Tue Mar 05, 2013 3:31 am

matthewsean85 wrote:
jreeve12 wrote:I don' know, Rawls. LSAC sure is taking A LOT of heat for flagging these scores. They now have the entire weight of the Justice Department arrayed against them. Even if they lose at the District Court, they've still got the Ninth Circuit to get through, which is likely to give the broadest reading possible of the ADA. I have a very hard time seeing LSAC's policies coming out of this unscathed.

However, from this thread and the words of Mark Spivey, I am even less convinced that any of this ultimately matters. It is next to impossible to systematically discriminate against accommodated scores for ranking purposes. It would come out in the admissions data, and then that law school would be screwed.

That doesn't mean, of course, that an accommodated score might be a discriminated against on a case by case basis, but I have yet to see such a case.


Regardless of whether law schools discriminate against your LSAT score, I will discriminate against you and your score for all eternity for creating this thread. I hope the ADCOMMS drop jelly on your file and read any "17x" as a "14x." Justice will ultimately be served.


Hahahahahaha.
I love you.

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Re: Do accommodated LSAT scores count towards law school ranks?

Postby RhymesLikeDimes » Tue Mar 05, 2013 5:23 pm

Judging by the content of your posts, I would be willing to bet money that it was your Personal Statement that cost you UVA, not your LSAT/GPA. I'm almost afraid to ask you to share it.

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Re: Do accommodated LSAT scores count towards law school ranks?

Postby 06102016 » Tue Mar 05, 2013 5:24 pm

..

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Re: Do accommodated LSAT scores count towards law school ranks?

Postby jreeve12 » Thu Mar 07, 2013 3:38 am

Icculus wrote:
jreeve12 wrote:
A → B ⊨ ¬B → ¬A wrote:
jreeve12 wrote:
Schools will never systematically discriminate negatively against accommodated scores unless all accommodated testers also have a GPA below median. Since they are only reporting GPA for those applicants, the ones with good GPAs will benefit the school regardless of their LSAT score, and the ones that will hurt the school with a bad GPA will be justifiably rejected because they have a bad GPA.


Sounds great, even slightly reasonable. But where is your evidence?? I never intended this forum to be a venue for expressions of wishful thinking or how YOU would make admissions decisions if YOU were running a law school admissions office.

The fact is that UVA would have to explain how someone with a 170+ and a 3.5 is pretty much guaranteed admission to the law school through ED, but my accommodated score got rejected with that same GPA. If they can't come up with a very good answer, someone in my position has just won the lottery. They discriminate at their greatest peril, so the question I would ask them if this goes on would be, "Is it worth it?"


I think you are putting too much stock in the "guaranteed admission" assertion. Not to menion, if the school falls back on the hollistic approach of admissions I am sure they can come up with another reason to deny you. On top of that, admissions decisions are generally not appealable nor reviewable and I don't think any court in its right mind would let you litigate your way in to UVA. The very idea of admissions is to discriminate among people and determine who should attend. While there may be a case to prevent LSAC from flagging scores achieved with extra time (I personally think the flagging is okay for reasons already mentioned) there is no case to argue UVA had to let you in because they let some other guy in with your stats.


I haven't lost YET, now. Let's not count the votes/admissions decisions before they're cast. I may very well prevail in the end. A lot can happen in a year.

As for "your GPA was below median" being an adequate response from UVA to rebuff any potential civil claim, ordinarily I would agree with you. Hands down. Courts are understandably loathe to get involved in the insular affairs of colleges/law schools, and they don't need much of an excuse to throw a case out in these situations. However, I believe you're thinking too small here. If there REALLLY is widespread, systematic, and illegal discrimination against applicants with accommodated scores (which, again, I am FAR from convinced of after this thread) and you REALLY want to stick it to law schools for these crimes, you don't look at the facts of JUST your case and file a lawsuit. You pull the admissions data of THOUSANDS of accommodated applicants in search of a pattern of applications with similar stats being accepted while those with similar accommodated LSAT scores being rejected; you take that pattern to a disability advocate group with similar plaintiffs; and then they file MANY lawsuits in several different federal district court jurisdictions across the country. One case of a rejection on account of a below median GPA and an accommodated LSAT which usually guarantees admission? Meh. Two such cases? Meh. TEN TO FIFTY SUCH RECENT CASES at a school like UVA?!? The school would definitely have some serious questions to answer, and they had better make sure that they have some good answers! Let's not pretend otherwise. This is one of many reasons that I now believe that accommodated scores are equated equally to non-accommodated scores in law school admissions more or less across the board. There's just too much risk of exposure to litigation and bad press.


Now, obviously, any such litigation would be an enormous pain, and I would have to go through countless hours of deep introspection and discussions with a family attorney to determine if pursuing the matter would either a) offer the opportunity to make a difference/make history OR b) actually be worth it for me personally in the long run. Jeffrey Sutton, after all, went to OHIO STATE LAW, wound up clerking for Lewis F. Powell and Antonin Scalia, and is now a judge on the United States Court of Appeals for the Sixth Circuit (the very pinnacle of worldly ambition in my book). He didn't have to go to a "top" law school by any means to achieve that, and neither do I. Don't get me wrong. I would certainly LIKE to have UVA's help, and I think they could equally benefit from having me, but I do not NEED them.

All that aside, pretending that law schools are immune from judicial review of their admissions decisions is, at best, facetious. We are, at this moment, awaiting a ruling in the biggest university affirmative action case in at least 10 years- maybe ever. The Supreme Court (yes, the very one with the overly restrained John G. Roberts at the helm) seems poised to strike the University of Texas' affirmative action plan as failing to be narrowly tailored to meet the compelling state interest at issue. They may even get rid of affirmative action in university admissions altogether. As UVA is ultimately a state agent, persons with accommodated scores have an even GREATER basis to have their cases heard by the courts than Abigail Fisher, as persons with disabilities quite arguably fit what Harlan Fisk Stone described as the "discrete and insular minorities" which compel the judiciary to scrutinize discriminatory laws/state action that would otherwise fall squarely under the prerogatives of popular sovereignty. Stone was speaking of constitutional rather than statutory review in his famous Footnote 4, of course, but I think the standard should still hold.

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Re: Do accommodated LSAT scores count towards law school ranks?

Postby John_rizzy_rawls » Thu Mar 07, 2013 5:08 am

You are a gentleman and a scholar sir.

Now go sue UVA.

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Re: Do accommodated LSAT scores count towards law school ranks?

Postby jreeve12 » Thu Mar 07, 2013 5:22 am

I don't believe that I will have reason, cause, or desire to sue UVA (or any other law school) because I believe that my LSAT score will be treated equally to non-accommodated scores.

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Re: Do accommodated LSAT scores count towards law school ranks?

Postby John_rizzy_rawls » Thu Mar 07, 2013 5:25 am

jreeve12 wrote:I don't believe that I will have reason, cause, or desire to sue UVA (or any other law school) because I believe that my LSAT score will be treated equally to non-accommodated scores.


Okay, awesome.

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Re: Do accommodated LSAT scores count towards law school ranks?

Postby jreeve12 » Thu Mar 07, 2013 5:27 am

John_rizzy_rawls wrote:
jreeve12 wrote:I don't believe that I will have reason, cause, or desire to sue UVA (or any other law school) because I believe that my LSAT score will be treated equally to non-accommodated scores.


Okay, awesome.


+1.

Hey, if I score below 170, I'll be the first to admit that my application should have been rejected.

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Re: Do accommodated LSAT scores count towards law school ranks?

Postby Icculus » Thu Mar 07, 2013 10:52 am

jreeve12 wrote:
Schools will never systematically discriminate negatively against accommodated scores unless all accommodated testers also have a GPA below median. Since they are only reporting GPA for those applicants, the ones with good GPAs will benefit the school regardless of their LSAT score, and the ones that will hurt the school with a bad GPA will be justifiably rejected because they have a bad GPA.
[/quote]

Sounds great, even slightly reasonable. But where is your evidence?? I never intended this forum to be a venue for expressions of wishful thinking or how YOU would make admissions decisions if YOU were running a law school admissions office.

The fact is that UVA would have to explain how someone with a 170+ and a 3.5 is pretty much guaranteed admission to the law school through ED, but my accommodated score got rejected with that same GPA. If they can't come up with a very good answer, someone in my position has just won the lottery. They discriminate at their greatest peril, so the question I would ask them if this goes on would be, "Is it worth it?"[/quote]

I think you are putting too much stock in the "guaranteed admission" assertion. Not to menion, if the school falls back on the hollistic approach of admissions I am sure they can come up with another reason to deny you. On top of that, admissions decisions are generally not appealable nor reviewable and I don't think any court in its right mind would let you litigate your way in to UVA. The very idea of admissions is to discriminate among people and determine who should attend. While there may be a case to prevent LSAC from flagging scores achieved with extra time (I personally think the flagging is okay for reasons already mentioned) there is no case to argue UVA had to let you in because they let some other guy in with your stats.[/quote]

I haven't lost YET, now. Let's not count the votes/admissions decisions before they're cast. I may very well prevail in the end. A lot can happen in a year.

As for "your GPA was below median" being an adequate response from UVA to rebuff any potential civil claim, ordinarily I would agree with you. Hands down. Courts are understandably loathe to get involved in the insular affairs of colleges/law schools, and they don't need much of an excuse to throw a case out in these situations. However, I believe you're thinking too small here. If there REALLLY is widespread, systematic, and illegal discrimination against applicants with accommodated scores (which, again, I am FAR from convinced of after this thread) and you REALLY want to stick it to law schools for these crimes, you don't look at the facts of JUST your case and file a lawsuit. You pull the admissions data of THOUSANDS of accommodated applicants in search of a pattern of applications with similar stats being accepted while those with similar accommodated LSAT scores being rejected; you take that pattern to a disability advocate group with similar plaintiffs; and then they file MANY lawsuits in several different federal district court jurisdictions across the country. One case of a rejection on account of a below median GPA and an accommodated LSAT which usually guarantees admission? Meh. Two such cases? Meh. TEN TO FIFTY SUCH RECENT CASES at a school like UVA?!? The school would definitely have some serious questions to answer, and they had better make sure that they have some good answers! Let's not pretend otherwise. This is one of many reasons that I now believe that accommodated scores are equated equally to non-accommodated scores in law school admissions more or less across the board. There's just too much risk of exposure to litigation and bad press.


Now, obviously, any such litigation would be an enormous pain, and I would have to go through countless hours of deep introspection and discussions with a family attorney to determine if pursuing the matter would either a) offer the opportunity to make a difference/make history OR b) actually be worth it for me personally in the long run. Jeffrey Sutton, after all, went to OHIO STATE LAW, wound up clerking for Lewis F. Powell and Antonin Scalia, and is now a judge on the United States Court of Appeals for the Sixth Circuit (the very pinnacle of worldly ambition in my book). He didn't have to go to a "top" law school by any means to achieve that, and neither do I. Don't get me wrong. I would certainly LIKE to have UVA's help, and I think they could equally benefit from having me, but I do not NEED them.

All that aside, pretending that law schools are immune from judicial review of their admissions decisions is, at best, facetious. We are, at this moment, awaiting a ruling in the biggest university affirmative action case in at least 10 years- maybe ever. The Supreme Court (yes, the very one with the overly restrained John G. Roberts at the helm) seems poised to strike the University of Texas' affirmative action plan as failing to be narrowly tailored to meet the compelling state interest at issue. They may even get rid of affirmative action in university admissions altogether. As UVA is ultimately a state agent, persons with accommodated scores have an even GREATER basis to have their cases heard by the courts than Abigail Fisher, as persons with disabilities quite arguably fit what Harlan Fisk Stone described as the "discrete and insular minorities" which compel the judiciary to scrutinize discriminatory laws/state action that would otherwise fall squarely under the prerogatives of popular sovereignty. Stone was speaking of constitutional rather than statutory review in his famous Footnote 4, of course, but I think the standard should still hold.[/quote]

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Post removed.

Postby MistakenGenius » Tue Nov 05, 2013 12:34 am

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Re: Do accommodated LSAT scores count towards law school ranks?

Postby North » Tue Nov 05, 2013 1:08 am

:lol:

Good times ITT.

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Re: Do accommodated LSAT scores count towards law school ranks?

Postby Chriz » Tue Nov 05, 2013 1:24 am

So what was the conclusion!?!?!




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