Do accommodated LSAT scores count towards law school ranks?

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jreeve12
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Re: Do accommodated LSAT scores count towards law school ranks?

Postby jreeve12 » Mon Feb 11, 2013 2:52 pm

How did you guys get a good score on the LSAT Reading Comprehension section, or even Logical Reasoning?

Yes, Dean Spivey said that law schools cannot currently report an accommodated score. However, based on his experience, he absolutely rejects an unwarranted assumption: inability to report = "TTT" (yeah, those awful "third tier toilet" schools that graduated Warren Burger, Benjamin Cardozo, Jeffrey Sutton, and Diane Sykes, and a big impressive list that I'm sure would crush Harvard overall).

He continues: "That said, they will see your score and if you score above their median it certainly should still help you. For that reason, I am not sure iof you would want to delay (only you can decide that, of course)."

In other words, EVEN IF THERE IS a SLIGHT disadvantage, it's probably not even worth waiting a year to overcome. That's a pretty powerful statement.

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: Do accommodated LSAT scores count towards law school ranks?

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Mon Feb 11, 2013 3:03 pm

Dude, your OP asked whether accommodated test scores count towards law school ranks. Spivey (and others) said they don't. That's all I was saying.

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BerkeleyBear
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Re: Do accommodated LSAT scores count towards law school ranks?

Postby BerkeleyBear » Mon Feb 11, 2013 3:14 pm

jreeve12 wrote:How did you guys get a good score on the LSAT Reading Comprehension section, or even Logical Reasoning?

Yes, Dean Spivey said that law schools cannot currently report an accommodated score. However, based on his experience, he absolutely rejects an unwarranted assumption: inability to report = "TTT" (yeah, those awful "third tier toilet" schools that graduated Warren Burger, Benjamin Cardozo, Jeffrey Sutton, and Diane Sykes, and a big impressive list that I'm sure would crush Harvard overall).

He continues: "That said, they will see your score and if you score above their median it certainly should still help you. For that reason, I am not sure iof you would want to delay (only you can decide that, of course)."

In other words, EVEN IF THERE IS a SLIGHT disadvantage, it's probably not even worth waiting a year to overcome. That's a pretty powerful statement.


So, in other words, Spivey states that LS's don't report an accommodated score. Reaffirming what everyone else has told you. Do you think schools admit students for the purpose of helping the student? Laughable. Of course Spivey is going to say "if you score above their median it certainly should still help you." No shit OP. The fact you're above their LSAT median isn't what is going to be detrimental to your admittance. The fact your GPA will be under the median and your LSAT wont be reported is what's going to get you outright rejected to all T1's. Those shitboomers you mentioned didn't pay hundreds of thousands for TTT btw. And they didn't enter a struggling market. Good luck at your TTT, I'm sure you're going to blow shit out of the fucking water OP. :twisted:

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Re: Do accommodated LSAT scores count towards law school ranks?

Postby Dmini7 » Mon Feb 11, 2013 3:17 pm

BerkeleyBear wrote:
jreeve12 wrote:How did you guys get a good score on the LSAT Reading Comprehension section, or even Logical Reasoning?

Yes, Dean Spivey said that law schools cannot currently report an accommodated score. However, based on his experience, he absolutely rejects an unwarranted assumption: inability to report = "TTT" (yeah, those awful "third tier toilet" schools that graduated Warren Burger, Benjamin Cardozo, Jeffrey Sutton, and Diane Sykes, and a big impressive list that I'm sure would crush Harvard overall).

He continues: "That said, they will see your score and if you score above their median it certainly should still help you. For that reason, I am not sure iof you would want to delay (only you can decide that, of course)."

In other words, EVEN IF THERE IS a SLIGHT disadvantage, it's probably not even worth waiting a year to overcome. That's a pretty powerful statement.


So, in other words, Spivey states that LS's don't report an accommodated score. Reaffirming what everyone else has told you. Do you think schools admit students for the purpose of helping the student? Laughable. Of course Spivey is going to say "if you score above their median it certainly should still help you." No shit OP. The fact you're above their LSAT median isn't what is going to be detrimental to your admittance. The fact your GPA will be under the median and your LSAT wont be reported is what's going to get you outright rejected to all T1's. Those shitboomers you mentioned didn't pay hundreds of thousands for TTT btw. And they didn't enter a struggling market. Good luck at your TTT, I'm sure you're going to blow shit out of the fucking water OP. :twisted:


Even if you are accepted somewhere in T1 you will be facing sticker, unless you can write an unbelievable PS/DS making people see you as a valuable asset to the school. With that said, I am not sure why anyone is trying to change OP's mind at this point. His decision has been made. It is time to just let this thread go. Thank you for your time OP and your views even though they may have differed from most of the people on here.

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North
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Re: Do accommodated LSAT scores count towards law school ranks?

Postby North » Mon Feb 11, 2013 3:34 pm

Dmini7 wrote:Even if you are accepted somewhere in T1 you will be facing sticker, unless you can write an unbelievable PS/DS making people see you as a valuable asset to the school.

That won't be hard, he just has to tell them that he's going to be top 5% and clerk for SCOTUS. What school wouldn't admit a law wizard SCOTUS clerk? LolDuh.

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MikeSpivey
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Re: Do accommodated LSAT scores count towards law school ranks?

Postby MikeSpivey » Mon Feb 11, 2013 4:10 pm

I find this thread amusing for numerous reasons.

jreeve12
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Re: Do accommodated LSAT scores count towards law school ranks?

Postby jreeve12 » Mon Feb 11, 2013 4:10 pm

North wrote:
Dmini7 wrote:Even if you are accepted somewhere in T1 you will be facing sticker, unless you can write an unbelievable PS/DS making people see you as a valuable asset to the school.

That won't be hard, he just has to tell them that he's going to be top 5% and clerk for SCOTUS. What school wouldn't admit a law wizard SCOTUS clerk? LolDuh.


+1

jreeve12
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Re: Do accommodated LSAT scores count towards law school ranks?

Postby jreeve12 » Mon Feb 11, 2013 4:19 pm

MikeSpivey wrote:I find this thread amusing for numerous reasons.


+1

My tendency to engage in arrogant, smart-ass narcissism when someone tells me that I can't do something with no REAL evidence to the contrary, the overreaction/vitriol that that narcissism has provoked here, or do you feel that I have unfairly interpreted your views?

If it is the latter, I sincerely want you to correct the record here. My snippy reaction to some of the unfounded comments about 'TTT' notwithstanding, I legitimately came here to get an answer to my question based on real experience and the best evidence possible.

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Rahviveh
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Re: Do accommodated LSAT scores count towards law school ranks?

Postby Rahviveh » Mon Feb 11, 2013 4:26 pm

Schools must abide by the ADA. Yes, they are self-interested and supremely focused on boosting their rankings. But they are not allowed to discriminate against people who receive accommodations. If a 3.5 and 175 is good enough to get into school X without accommodations it should theoretically be enough for someone with accommodations. I might be the biggest cynic on in this thread but I am not convinced that they would treat accommodated scores differently.

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MikeSpivey
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Re: Do accommodated LSAT scores count towards law school ranks?

Postby MikeSpivey » Mon Feb 11, 2013 4:30 pm

jreeve12 wrote:
MikeSpivey wrote:I find this thread amusing for numerous reasons.


+1

My tendency to engage in arrogant, smart-ass narcissism when someone tells me that I can't do something with no REAL evidence to the contrary, the overreaction/vitriol that that narcissism has provoked here, or do you feel that I have unfairly interpreted your views?

If it is the latter, I sincerely want you to correct the record here. My snippy reaction to some of the unfounded comments about 'TTT' notwithstanding, I legitimately came here to get an answer to my question based on real experience and the best evidence possible.


You are fine. I find it amusing more from an admissions perspective and the fact I stumbled upon it and saw my name all over the place. Also because when I saw the thread name, like the idiot I can be, I thought to myself "hey someone just had that exact question."

jreeve12
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Re: Do accommodated LSAT scores count towards law school ranks?

Postby jreeve12 » Mon Feb 11, 2013 6:21 pm

What makes this amusing from an admissions perspective, Dean Spivey?

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Re: Do accommodated LSAT scores count towards law school ranks?

Postby A → B ⊨ ¬B → ¬A » Mon Feb 11, 2013 6:30 pm

jreeve12 wrote:How did you guys get a good score on the LSAT Reading Comprehension section, or even Logical Reasoning?

Yes, Dean Spivey said that law schools cannot currently report an accommodated score. However, based on his experience, he absolutely rejects an unwarranted assumption: inability to report = "TTT" (yeah, those awful "third tier toilet" schools that graduated Warren Burger, Benjamin Cardozo, Jeffrey Sutton, and Diane Sykes, and a big impressive list that I'm sure would crush Harvard overall).

He continues: "That said, they will see your score and if you score above their median it certainly should still help you. For that reason, I am not sure iof you would want to delay (only you can decide that, of course)."

In other words, EVEN IF THERE IS a SLIGHT disadvantage, it's probably not even worth waiting a year to overcome. That's a pretty powerful statement.


It's not a slight disadvantage to have a high accommodated score; it's a slight advantage. Instead of being a major factor that can overcome a low GPA, it's a soft when it isn't reportable. A score "above their median" is really a score outside of their median. Whether they interpret the score as above is entirely subjective.

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ManOfTheMinute
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Re: Do accommodated LSAT scores count towards law school ranks?

Postby ManOfTheMinute » Mon Feb 11, 2013 6:31 pm

jreeve12 wrote:What makes this amusing from an admissions perspective, Dean Spivey?


Its probably your asking of a question to which you clearly think you already know the answer. Oh, and for those deans you quoted saying "yay for accomodated LSAT scores" - obviously they say that. WTF do you think they'll say... "we think disabled people are dumber?"

jreeve12
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Re: Do accommodated LSAT scores count towards law school ranks?

Postby jreeve12 » Mon Feb 11, 2013 7:05 pm

ManOfTheMinute wrote:
jreeve12 wrote:What makes this amusing from an admissions perspective, Dean Spivey?


Its probably your asking of a question to which you clearly think you already know the answer. Oh, and for those deans you quoted saying "yay for accomodated LSAT scores" - obviously they say that. WTF do you think they'll say... "we think disabled people are dumber?"


It's a question that I now think I know the answer BECAUSE of Dean Spivey and others. Want to be a naysayer? Great!!! And I really do mean it sincerely. But now comes the hard part: citing actual admissions data or first-hand accounts from people like Dean Spivey who have see illegal discrimination against an accommodated score first hand. Does it seem plausible that they woul be tempted to do that? Yes! That's why I'm here, but I still expect that (if anyone takes the time to reply to my thread) that they base their bad-news on facts or experience, not plausible supposition.

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Re: Do accommodated LSAT scores count towards law school ranks?

Postby MikeSpivey » Mon Feb 11, 2013 7:11 pm

I'll explain the entire process, at least as I know it.

1. It is very difficult to get accommodations from LSAC. (did you guys know LSAC has a robot that delivers their internal mail. I kid you not). I can't count the number of letters/emails you get in admissions from prospective students who bemoan that they did not. I know absolutely nothing about the White House getting involved in LSAT accommodations, but I suspect it has to do with broadening accessibility to accommodations.

2. The second you go to read an application (we call them "files" in admissions, fyi) you know it is either 1. someone who had accommodations or 2. a PhD student who included their dissertation. The documentation is so think you know it right away.

3. I think this may have been mentioned but on the LSDAS report you only see the raw score. LSAC does not supply the percentile.

4. Obviously I can not speak for any school or admissions file reader. But having a high score (as we mentioned) is certainly noticeable. Keep in mind the LSAT actually serves a purpose beyond US News rankings. Shocking, I know.

Probably a bad idea, then, is if you do not get accommodations to write a letter complaining about it. Rather, I would attach an addendum documenting whatever condition you may have, without mentioning LSAT or LSAC.

Just my 2 cents.

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North
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Re: Do accommodated LSAT scores count towards law school ranks?

Postby North » Mon Feb 11, 2013 8:12 pm

MikeSpivey wrote:4. Obviously I can not speak for any school or admissions file reader. But having a high score (as we mentioned) is certainly noticeable.

Okay, but, behind closed doors at an admissions office, does an accommodated 170 actually = a regular 170? Even when an applicant's LSDAS GPA is below median?

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Re: Do accommodated LSAT scores count towards law school ranks?

Postby 20141023 » Mon Feb 11, 2013 8:22 pm

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Last edited by 20141023 on Mon Sep 09, 2013 9:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Do accommodated LSAT scores count towards law school ranks?

Postby Rahviveh » Mon Feb 11, 2013 8:57 pm

kappycaft1 wrote:
MikeSpivey wrote:I'll explain the entire process, at least as I know it.

1. It is very difficult to get accommodations from LSAC. (did you guys know LSAC has a robot that delivers their internal mail. I kid you not). I can't count the number of letters/emails you get in admissions from prospective students who bemoan that they did not. I know absolutely nothing about the White House getting involved in LSAT accommodations, but I suspect it has to do with broadening accessibility to accommodations.

2. The second you go to read an application (we call them "files" in admissions, fyi) you know it is either 1. someone who had accommodations or 2. a PhD student who included their dissertation. The documentation is so think you know it right away.

3. I think this may have been mentioned but on the LSDAS report you only see the raw score. LSAC does not supply the percentile.

4. Obviously I can not speak for any school or admissions file reader. But having a high score (as we mentioned) is certainly noticeable. Keep in mind the LSAT actually serves a purpose beyond US News rankings. Shocking, I know.

Probably a bad idea, then, is if you do not get accommodations to write a letter complaining about it. Rather, I would attach an addendum documenting whatever condition you may have, without mentioning LSAT or LSAC.

Just my 2 cents.

This is something that I brought up on the very first page before the OP went from reasonable-sounding person to please-don't-tell-me-anything-I-don't-want-to-hear-because-I'm-a-whiny-little-bitch troll. The reason that the LSAT is important is because, aside from law school rankings, it is a very good indicator of how a student will do in law school. Having an accommodated score not only prevents an applicant from reaping the benefits of boosting a school's LSAT medians, but it also calls into question whether said applicant would be able to keep up in a rigorous environment where everyone around them is completely unaccommodated.

Now, regarding "discrimination" and "fairness":
Let's bring in a hypothetical example of an international student with a 174 LSAT / "Superior" GPA. They might have had the equivalent of a 4.0 GPA in their home country, but because they received something other than an American education, the outcome of their cycle will rest mainly on their LSAT score because that is the only common factor that adcomms can compare to other applicants. This is not discrimination - it is being fair. For instance, it wouldn't be fair to compare a professional break dancer to a world-class pianist and say that the pianist is "better," for they are doing two completely different things. Likewise, it wouldn't be fair to compare a "Superior" GPA with a 4.0 because they are also two different things. You can probably see where I'm going with this: While the OP might be a really good break dancer, the rest of us are playing the piano, so although those who see his performance might be impressed, he will not be judged by the same criteria. This is why we are saying that his GPA will likely play a bigger factor in his admission cycle than other applicants. We have data that pretty much proves that international applicants are made or broken by their LSAT scores, so I don't know why anyone would think that it would be "discrimination" for schools to focus on the OP's GPA when making decisions for his cycle.


The international student is not covered by the ADA. By flagging scores LSAC is basically telling schools that this persons LSAT isn't reflective - which may or may not be true but that just defeats the purpose of accommodations and trying to level the playing field in the first place.

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Re: Do accommodated LSAT scores count towards law school ranks?

Postby MikeSpivey » Mon Feb 11, 2013 8:59 pm

kappycaft1 wrote:
Tiago Splitter wrote:
jreeve12 wrote:Practically all of the top-14 schools, including Harvard, have decided to let their median GPAs drop in favor of LSAT medians.

If you're going to make these claims you need to back them up with some data. At least 3 T-14 schools saw a drop in their LSAT median last cycle.

We already have that data, but it says exactly the opposite of what the OP is claiming. Thus far, GPAs are actually up and LSAT scores are down, OP. Look at this spreadsheet I made which compares LSN data from January 20th of last year to January 20th of this year.


The reason being (you likely know this) the number of LSAT scores above a 165 are way way down. My point being that it is not like there has been this groundswell movement "we should put more of a premium on uGPA!" Quite the contrary, in fact.

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Re: Do accommodated LSAT scores count towards law school ranks?

Postby 20141023 » Mon Feb 11, 2013 9:47 pm

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Last edited by 20141023 on Mon Sep 09, 2013 9:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

jreeve12
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Re: Do accommodated LSAT scores count towards law school ranks?

Postby jreeve12 » Tue Feb 12, 2013 12:04 am

ChampagnePapi wrote:
kappycaft1 wrote:
MikeSpivey wrote:I'll explain the entire process, at least as I know it.

1. It is very difficult to get accommodations from LSAC. (did you guys know LSAC has a robot that delivers their internal mail. I kid you not). I can't count the number of letters/emails you get in admissions from prospective students who bemoan that they did not. I know absolutely nothing about the White House getting involved in LSAT accommodations, but I suspect it has to do with broadening accessibility to accommodations.

2. The second you go to read an application (we call them "files" in admissions, fyi) you know it is either 1. someone who had accommodations or 2. a PhD student who included their dissertation. The documentation is so think you know it right away.

3. I think this may have been mentioned but on the LSDAS report you only see the raw score. LSAC does not supply the percentile.

4. Obviously I can not speak for any school or admissions file reader. But having a high score (as we mentioned) is certainly noticeable. Keep in mind the LSAT actually serves a purpose beyond US News rankings. Shocking, I know.

Probably a bad idea, then, is if you do not get accommodations to write a letter complaining about it. Rather, I would attach an addendum documenting whatever condition you may have, without mentioning LSAT or LSAC.

Just my 2 cents.

This is something that I brought up on the very first page before the OP went from reasonable-sounding person to please-don't-tell-me-anything-I-don't-want-to-hear-because-I'm-a-whiny-little-bitch troll. The reason that the LSAT is important is because, aside from law school rankings, it is a very good indicator of how a student will do in law school. Having an accommodated score not only prevents an applicant from reaping the benefits of boosting a school's LSAT medians, but it also calls into question whether said applicant would be able to keep up in a rigorous environment where everyone around them is completely unaccommodated.

Now, regarding "discrimination" and "fairness":
Let's bring in a hypothetical example of an international student with a 174 LSAT / "Superior" GPA. They might have had the equivalent of a 4.0 GPA in their home country, but because they received something other than an American education, the outcome of their cycle will rest mainly on their LSAT score because that is the only common factor that adcomms can compare to other applicants. This is not discrimination - it is being fair. For instance, it wouldn't be fair to compare a professional break dancer to a world-class pianist and say that the pianist is "better," for they are doing two completely different things. Likewise, it wouldn't be fair to compare a "Superior" GPA with a 4.0 because they are also two different things. You can probably see where I'm going with this: While the OP might be a really good break dancer, the rest of us are playing the piano, so although those who see his performance might be impressed, he will not be judged by the same criteria. This is why we are saying that his GPA will likely play a bigger factor in his admission cycle than other applicants. We have data that pretty much proves that international applicants are made or broken by their LSAT scores, so I don't know why anyone would think that it would be "discrimination" for schools to focus on the OP's GPA when making decisions for his cycle.


The international student is not covered by the ADA. By flagging scores LSAC is basically telling schools that this persons LSAT isn't reflective - which may or may not be true but that just defeats the purpose of accommodations and trying to level the playing field in the first place.


+1

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Re: Do accommodated LSAT scores count towards law school ranks?

Postby A → B ⊨ ¬B → ¬A » Tue Feb 12, 2013 12:22 am

jreeve12 wrote:+1


I think you should try to cancel your accommodation.

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Richie Tenenbaum
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Re: Do accommodated LSAT scores count towards law school ranks?

Postby Richie Tenenbaum » Tue Feb 12, 2013 12:39 am

jreeve12 wrote:I never said that I would ultimately be a SCOTUS clerk, but I DO have a good basis to say that I would be in at least the top 2-5% at whatever program I am accepted into. Will that translate into a clerkship with Jeffrey Sutton? Maybe, maybe not, but I like my odds!

Let's look at it this way. I have an overall IQ of 153 and a verbal reasoning sub-score of 160 (more highly correlated with success in law school than the LSAT). There are only 30,000 people in the entire United States. Assuming an average class size of 600, then if EVERY person with an IQ that high went to Harvard Law since 1962, then Harvard Law could BARELY fill its class with people with those scores. Of course, far from 100% of people with those IQ scores, I'd be SHOCKED if Harvard Law got even 10% of people with those scores. What do you think it's going to be at UVA? 1%? MAYBE? I have actually had a 4.0 for the last 3 semesters of college. I told you that we lived in the age of the genius slacker, and in addition to some poor grades from my undergrad, I made some poor choices from my freshman year that are dragging down my grades. I rushed and became too involved in my fraternity, became too caught up in college life, and paid the consequences. I am REALLY good at leveraging my intellectual talents towards compensating for a very mild cognitive deficit, and I will continue to kick ass at whatever law school I attend. You think I'm just going to slack off after making up my mind to pursue a clerkship wit a feeder-judge? Please. As I've said, my disability actually gives me an advantage: I have to work hard from day 1, and, when I've made the decision to succeed, I don't let up until it's over. I will import that same intensity wherever I go in life. I am no longer some impressionable young freshman chump.

By the way, am I the only one here who recognizes the irony of some entitled "top tier" student labeling truly accomplished lawyers like Jeffrey Sutton (who went to Ohio State and clerked formLewis Powell) and Hugo Black (need I say more?) as "Third Tier Toilet" and then proceeds to label ME as arrogant? Look in the mirror, "pals."


Wow. Jreeve, chances are that you won't be "in at least the top 2-5%" of whatever law school you go to (assuming you're not a flame and you actually end up going to law school). Law school tests are not IQ tests. Some can be very well written, and some can be a bit random. One mediocre performance or one random test that ends up poorly for you can be enough to set you behind. Keep in mind that you'll be applying to clerkships with at most 4 semesters (excluding quarter-system schools like Chicago) worth of law school grades (3 semesters if you're applying to feeder judges). It's laughable to be so confident that 1) you're so much better than your competition, even at top schools and 2) nothing will go wrong on any of your finals.

But this might be a waste of time on my part. Based on your posts, it seems like that you'll just brush off this dose of reality and stay confident about how awesome you are.

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Re: Do accommodated LSAT scores count towards law school ranks?

Postby jreeve12 » Tue Feb 12, 2013 1:04 am

Richie Tenenbaum wrote:
jreeve12 wrote:
But this might be a waste of time on my part. Based on your posts, it seems like that you'll just brush off this dose of reality and stay confident about how awesome you are.


+1

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suralin
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Re: Do accommodated LSAT scores count towards law school ranks?

Postby suralin » Tue Feb 12, 2013 1:40 am

jreeve12 wrote:
Richie Tenenbaum wrote:
jreeve12 wrote:
But this might be a waste of time on my part. Based on your posts, it seems like that you'll just brush off this dose of reality and stay confident about how awesome you are.


+1


lol




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