Why is LS Admissions Mostly Numbers-Based vs. Holistic?

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RhymesLikeDimes
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Re: Why is LS Admissions Mostly Numbers-Based vs. Holistic?

Postby RhymesLikeDimes » Wed Jan 16, 2013 6:35 pm

The problem with that is the wild diversity in GPAs between departments, professors, programs, courses, etc. within each school. I went to a school with ~35% Education majors, where their average GPA was well over 3.5 (for some of the dumbest kids in existence), and threw the whole school out of wack.

What look to be hard/easy courses on a transcript aren't necessarily what they appear. General Biology 2 (BIO 180) was a nightmare course at my college. Analytical Biochemistry (CHEM 376) was one of the easiest science A's I ever got. I also took Physics with one professor who was so brutal that I dropped the class, then took the same course again with a different Prof. and got a cakewalk-A.

Unless admissions are willing to look at the average GPA for every class you took, the less they pay attention, the better.

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scifiguy
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Re: Why is LS Admissions Mostly Numbers-Based vs. Holistic?

Postby scifiguy » Thu Jan 17, 2013 12:15 am

Education is usually one of the easier majors at most universities.

I think social work might be another one.

I think I read some study that showed some prett high GPA's for those types of majors. I think it was about 3.5/3.5+ like the prson above said. I don't know how that'd be factored into admissions though.

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scifiguy
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Re: Why is LS Admissions Mostly Numbers-Based vs. Holistic?

Postby scifiguy » Thu Jan 17, 2013 12:28 am

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-505145_162- ... ege-major/

I found this article, but don't vouch its content. Just putting it out there for information.


"Here's The Nation's Easiest College Major"
Slackers wanting to earn the country's easiest college major, should major in education.

It's easy to get "A's" if you're an education major. Maybe that's why one out of 10 college graduates major in education.

Research over the years has indicated that education majors, who enter college with the lowest average SAT scores, leave with the highest grades. Some of academic evidence documenting easy A's for future teachers goes back more than 50 years!

Education majors enjoyed grade point averages that were .5 to .8 grade points higher than students in the other college majors. At the University of Missouri, for instance, the average education major has a 3.80 GPA versus 2.99 GPA (science, math, econ majors), 3.12 GPA (social science majors) and 3.16 GPA (humanities majors).


A 3.8 average?? DUDE!!!
Last edited by scifiguy on Thu Jan 17, 2013 12:32 am, edited 3 times in total.

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IAFG
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Re: Why is LS Admissions Mostly Numbers-Based vs. Holistic?

Postby IAFG » Thu Jan 17, 2013 12:30 am

There's actually something very egalitarian about pure numbers admissions. It makes sense that this approach would be how it's done in law admissions.

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scifiguy
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Re: Why is LS Admissions Mostly Numbers-Based vs. Holistic?

Postby scifiguy » Thu Jan 17, 2013 1:27 am

oh wiat, that was 3.8 for that one school (from what I can tell so far).

I see. Still, that's a high GPA average.

talesofyore
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Re: Why is LS Admissions Mostly Numbers-Based vs. Holistic?

Postby talesofyore » Thu Jan 17, 2013 12:12 pm

jetsfan1 wrote:The biggest problem I think with numbers game is comparing gpas across schools, not so much bc of the quality of the school, but bc of different levels of grade inflation. My UG, for example, is known for fighting grade inflation and making a significant effort to keep grades down. For instance, after one semester when the cumulative gpa of all students jumped, the administration emailed all the profs and told them to start grading harder. Our econ department curves to a B-, or a 2.66. Compare this to somewhere like Brown, where 2/3 of all grades given out are As. ( http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-505145_162- ... st-grades/ ) Not that my school is as good as Brown, but the point remains that when you have different levels of grade inflation, the same gpa can have vastly different meanings at different schools that are about equal in prestige, which makes it even harder to compare them.


This.

Since starting my application process I've been wishing I'd attended community college or University of Phoenix online or something.

WhatOurBodiesAreFor
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Re: Why is LS Admissions Mostly Numbers-Based vs. Holistic?

Postby WhatOurBodiesAreFor » Thu Jan 17, 2013 12:14 pm

The only real qualm I have about ls admissions is the restrictive definition of a URM. It's not the fault of white caucasian, Bob, that his parents were drug addicts. It's not the fault of white caucasian, Sandy, that no one ever pushed her in the right direction.

In general, I very much agree with numbers-based admissions processes, I just wish there was a more expansive definition of a URM. I saw recently where the Southeast's LSAT score average was 5 points below the national average (other regions were all more or less the same). Bob and Sandy should get a boost, as should Billy Bob and Billie Jo. Ls admissions rightly attempts to increase diversity, but racial and ethnic diversity are not the only types of diversity.

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Icculus
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Re: Why is LS Admissions Mostly Numbers-Based vs. Holistic?

Postby Icculus » Thu Jan 17, 2013 12:32 pm

jetsfan1 wrote:The biggest problem I think with numbers game is comparing gpas across schools, not so much bc of the quality of the school, but bc of different levels of grade inflation. My UG, for example, is known for fighting grade inflation and making a significant effort to keep grades down. For instance, after one semester when the cumulative gpa of all students jumped, the administration emailed all the profs and told them to start grading harder. Our econ department curves to a B-, or a 2.66. Compare this to somewhere like Brown, where 2/3 of all grades given out are As. ( http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-505145_162- ... st-grades/ ) Not that my school is as good as Brown, but the point remains that when you have different levels of grade inflation, the same gpa can have vastly different meanings at different schools that are about equal in prestige, which makes it even harder to compare them.


This is why while GPAs are important the LSAT is weighted heavier since it is a standardized test and everyone has to take it, and why splitters and super splitters have such unpredictable outcomes.

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NoodleyOne
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Re: Why is LS Admissions Mostly Numbers-Based vs. Holistic?

Postby NoodleyOne » Thu Jan 17, 2013 12:41 pm

WhatOurBodiesAreFor wrote:The only real qualm I have about ls admissions is the restrictive definition of a URM. It's not the fault of white caucasian, Bob, that his parents were drug addicts. It's not the fault of white caucasian, Sandy, that no one ever pushed her in the right direction.

In general, I very much agree with numbers-based admissions processes, I just wish there was a more expansive definition of a URM. I saw recently where the Southeast's LSAT score average was 5 points below the national average (other regions were all more or less the same). Bob and Sandy should get a boost, as should Billy Bob and Billie Jo. Ls admissions rightly attempts to increase diversity, but racial and ethnic diversity are not the only types of diversity.

I don't disagree, and I think socioeconomic status should be factored in with URM. Most schools do include this in a diversity statement, but to what extent it benefits an applicant is hard to tell. While I know there are arguments against this, I find it hard to believe that Billy Bob from Podunk Sticks, Appalachia has access to more educational resources than an AA. Also, it is entirely possible, and I would say even probable, that an impoverished white person faces more challenges from an educational perspective than an upper middle-class AA, but the AA is the one that gets the significant admissions bump.

/Marxist rant

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bk1
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Re: Why is LS Admissions Mostly Numbers-Based vs. Holistic?

Postby bk1 » Thu Jan 17, 2013 12:45 pm

Getting close to a debate about the merits of AA, ladies and gents. There's a thread for that in the lounge.

talesofyore
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Re: Why is LS Admissions Mostly Numbers-Based vs. Holistic?

Postby talesofyore » Thu Jan 17, 2013 12:57 pm

:wink:
Last edited by talesofyore on Thu Jan 17, 2013 1:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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bk1
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Re: Why is LS Admissions Mostly Numbers-Based vs. Holistic?

Postby bk1 » Thu Jan 17, 2013 1:17 pm

Let me put this in big, bold, capital, underlined red letters so you all can comprehend: debating the merits of AA is off limits in the on-topic forums. Further failures to ignore this will result in hefty timeouts.

rad lulz
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Re: Why is LS Admissions Mostly Numbers-Based vs. Holistic?

Postby rad lulz » Thu Jan 17, 2013 1:29 pm


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NoodleyOne
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Re: Why is LS Admissions Mostly Numbers-Based vs. Holistic?

Postby NoodleyOne » Thu Jan 17, 2013 2:58 pm

Yeah, it's ridiculous to have pertinent discussion to admissions in on-topic forums.

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bk1
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Re: Why is LS Admissions Mostly Numbers-Based vs. Holistic?

Postby bk1 » Thu Jan 17, 2013 5:42 pm

NoodleyOne wrote:Yeah, it's ridiculous to have pertinent discussion to admissions in on-topic forums.

I think you meant to post about how butthurt you are here: viewtopic.php?f=10&t=146657

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scifiguy
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Re: Why is LS Admissions Mostly Numbers-Based vs. Holistic?

Postby scifiguy » Thu Jan 17, 2013 6:18 pm

Icculus wrote:
jetsfan1 wrote:The biggest problem I think with numbers game is comparing gpas across schools, not so much bc of the quality of the school, but bc of different levels of grade inflation. My UG, for example, is known for fighting grade inflation and making a significant effort to keep grades down. For instance, after one semester when the cumulative gpa of all students jumped, the administration emailed all the profs and told them to start grading harder. Our econ department curves to a B-, or a 2.66. Compare this to somewhere like Brown, where 2/3 of all grades given out are As. ( http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-505145_162- ... st-grades/ ) Not that my school is as good as Brown, but the point remains that when you have different levels of grade inflation, the same gpa can have vastly different meanings at different schools that are about equal in prestige, which makes it even harder to compare them.


This is why while GPAs are important the LSAT is weighted heavier since it is a standardized test and everyone has to take it, and why splitters and super splitters have such unpredictable outcomes.



Exactly how much more is the LSAT weighted?

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Borg
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Re: Why is LS Admissions Mostly Numbers-Based vs. Holistic?

Postby Borg » Thu Jan 17, 2013 6:53 pm

The short and correct answer is that US News rankings are based almost entirely on numbers. The reason law schools care is that students care, and the reason students care is because jobs available to grads basically follow a linear relationship based on ranking.

I hate the way law school admissions work because people who had lazy majors but did well on the LSAT wind up thinking of themselves as geniuses. I know social justice oriented English and history majors in my law school who refuse to talk about economics, for example, because it's a "pseudo-science," but in reality have no quantitative ability and are scared to death of anything involving numbers. I know of multiple law students who have taken finance classes in the business school with me and wound up on the bottom of the curve, but claim it's because they didn't do any work. Basically, the law school admissions process allows ignorant people to feign superiority when there are a lot of people who are more deserving but essentially self selected out by making the "mistake" of actually taking tough classes in undergrad.

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Re: Why is LS Admissions Mostly Numbers-Based vs. Holistic?

Postby rad lulz » Thu Jan 17, 2013 6:57 pm

Borg wrote:The short and correct answer is that US News rankings are based almost entirely on numbers. The reason law schools care is that students care, and the reason students care is because jobs available to grads basically follow a linear relationship based on ranking.

--LinkRemoved--

Actually, the relationship is not linear.

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Borg
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Re: Why is LS Admissions Mostly Numbers-Based vs. Holistic?

Postby Borg » Thu Jan 17, 2013 7:04 pm

rad lulz wrote:
Borg wrote:The short and correct answer is that US News rankings are based almost entirely on numbers. The reason law schools care is that students care, and the reason students care is because jobs available to grads basically follow a linear relationship based on ranking.

--LinkRemoved--

Actually, the relationship is not linear.


You're right on the whole, but I assumed that we were talking the top schools based on the fact that this site is called top-law-schools.com.

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Tiago Splitter
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Re: Why is LS Admissions Mostly Numbers-Based vs. Holistic?

Postby Tiago Splitter » Thu Jan 17, 2013 7:13 pm

Borg wrote:Basically, the law school admissions process allows ignorant people to feign superiority when there are a lot of people who are more deserving but essentially self selected out by making the "mistake" of actually taking tough classes in undergrad.

Their mistake is usually just not retaking the LSAT.

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Re: Why is LS Admissions Mostly Numbers-Based vs. Holistic?

Postby jetsfan1 » Thu Jan 17, 2013 7:21 pm

Overall the whole GPA-weighing into admissions is totally screwed up (for all these reasons mentioned). But at the end of the day, its not law schools that would have to change for this to change. Its USNWR. It all starts there. They are the ones who decide how the admissions process works, not law schools.

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MikeSpivey
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Re: Why is LS Admissions Mostly Numbers-Based vs. Holistic?

Postby MikeSpivey » Thu Jan 17, 2013 7:35 pm

I have not read a single reply so apologies if this has been said, which is likely.

Because of USNews

I guess I could also mention r square scores, predictable power, comparative power, etc. But, it's what I just wrote above.

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Rahviveh
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Re: Why is LS Admissions Mostly Numbers-Based vs. Holistic?

Postby Rahviveh » Thu Jan 17, 2013 9:05 pm

MikeSpivey wrote:I have not read a single reply so apologies if this has been said, which is likely.

Because of USNews

I guess I could also mention r square scores, predictable power, comparative power, etc. But, it's what I just wrote above.


Why are business schools and other grad schools not as numbers-obsessed though? Do they not care about USNews as much?

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jetsfan1
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Re: Why is LS Admissions Mostly Numbers-Based vs. Holistic?

Postby jetsfan1 » Thu Jan 17, 2013 10:28 pm

Why are business schools and other grad schools not as numbers-obsessed though? Do they not care about USNews as much?


Not really, they don't (although it is still important to a large extent, just not like with law schools). I don't know much about business school but I do know for med schools, rank is much less important because pretty much everyone gets a job coming out. Therefore, students are much less concerned with where they go to school, and consequently, rankings tend to matter less bc schools dont need a high ranking/reputation to attract students.

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Re: Why is LS Admissions Mostly Numbers-Based vs. Holistic?

Postby ksllaw » Thu Jan 17, 2013 11:57 pm

jetsfan1 wrote:
Why are business schools and other grad schools not as numbers-obsessed though? Do they not care about USNews as much?


Not really, they don't (although it is still important to a large extent, just not like with law schools). I don't know much about business school but I do know for med schools, rank is much less important because pretty much everyone gets a job coming out. Therefore, students are much less concerned with where they go to school, and consequently, rankings tend to matter less bc schools dont need a high ranking/reputation to attract students.



This is a different question, but should the ABA regulate law school admissions to control for the oversupply in the market?

I believe the AMA has a hand in medical school admissions, by setting the enrollment capacity each year. If I remember correctly, it's based on what they expected demand for medical services is in the U.S. They actively take a role in determining the size/supply of medical doctors going out into the market.

This seems to have many positives. At the very least, it helps prevent oversupply problems. And, some might argue that it ensures highly competent doctors. Only the "best" are able to get into medical school. And it protects medical school graduates' job prospects and salaries. If one simply graduates from medical school in the U.S., I believe it is around a 95% rate that they end up in a U.S. residency. Those graduating from Carribean medical schools have about a 50% U.S. medical residency rate.

The downside is that the tighter admissions controls make medical school difficult to get into (but certainly that can be seen as a positive as well, in terms of ensuring a highly qualified class), because there aren't as many slots as with law school. But if one is able to get in to a medical school, then there are little fears of graduating without a job.




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