New student loan bill pending in Congress

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OfferSecured
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Re: New student loan bill pending in Congress

Postby OfferSecured » Wed Dec 05, 2012 4:33 pm

rinkrat19 wrote:
OfferSecured wrote:stupid stuff with incompetent quoting I'm too lazy to fix
So basically you're fine with punishing the worthy just because you're angry at humanities majors?



Humanity majors should not exist.

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rinkrat19
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Re: New student loan bill pending in Congress

Postby rinkrat19 » Wed Dec 05, 2012 4:36 pm

OfferSecured wrote:
rinkrat19 wrote:
OfferSecured wrote:stupid stuff with incompetent quoting I'm too lazy to fix
So basically you're fine with punishing the worthy just because you're angry at humanities majors?



Humanity majors should not exist.
Yes, there should be no one qualified to teach people how to write well. And art, literature and history are unimportant, and everyone should major in physics. :roll:

I'm an engineering major who thinks you're retarded.

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dingbat
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Re: New student loan bill pending in Congress

Postby dingbat » Wed Dec 05, 2012 4:43 pm

OfferSecured wrote: I am talking about kids who take out huge student loans to go to a overpriced private school to major in Fashion or something.

My cousin went to some private fashion school. She now owns her own business designing and selling clothing

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spleenworship
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Re: New student loan bill pending in Congress

Postby spleenworship » Wed Dec 05, 2012 4:43 pm

OfferSecured wrote:
rinkrat19 wrote:
OfferSecured wrote:stupid stuff with incompetent quoting I'm too lazy to fix
So basically you're fine with punishing the worthy just because you're angry at humanities majors?



Humanity majors should not exist.



Um. You are an idiot.

Look, too many people go into the humanities, and for them it is a worthless degree. That said, however, it doesn't mean that the world doesn't need humanities PhDs around. And to get a PhD you need a BA.

IMO the real problem is all the parents pushing their kids to go to college. If I hadn't listened to my mom I would be a Warrant Officer (Nuclear Engineer) in the USN right now with an AAS. I'll admit I'm happy the way my life turned out, and that I'm in law school, but seriously, that would not have been the end of the world either. Useful skills, good job, good prospects after retirement, and no real college.

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Icculus
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Re: New student loan bill pending in Congress

Postby Icculus » Wed Dec 05, 2012 4:47 pm

rinkrat19 wrote:
OfferSecured wrote:
rinkrat19 wrote:
OfferSecured wrote:stupid stuff with incompetent quoting I'm too lazy to fix
So basically you're fine with punishing the worthy just because you're angry at humanities majors?



Humanity majors should not exist.
Yes, there should be no one qualified to teach people how to write well. And art, literature and history are unimportant, and everyone should major in physics. :roll:

I'm an engineering major who thinks you're retarded.


Thank you Rink, there is a place for humanities, arts, etc., and I hate when people just decide they should be eliminated. However too many people take out 100-200K in UG loans with no plan simply because they think they should go to college; that is where the problem is. Many of them performed poorly in high school, probably didn't really like school to begin with, and probably should have thought it through more. I'll be honest, when I went to UG I was a polisci major with a vague plan to maybe go to law schoolm (and even that took me ten more years). I went to a small, private, lib. arts college but did so on probably $30K worth of student loans because of scholarship money. I did not come from a rich family, my parents paid none of my tuition, and I still managed to do pretty well. Even so, I think I would have been better off if I took a year off, worked, and figured out what the hell I actually wanted.

/pseudo stream of conscious rant.

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Icculus
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Re: New student loan bill pending in Congress

Postby Icculus » Wed Dec 05, 2012 4:54 pm

spleenworship wrote: IMO the real problem is all the parents pushing their kids to go to college. If I hadn't listened to my mom I would be a Warrant Officer (Nuclear Engineer) in the USN right now with an AAS. I'll admit I'm happy the way my life turned out, and that I'm in law school, but seriously, that would not have been the end of the world either. Useful skills, good job, good prospects after retirement, and no real college.



This. I taught middle school and high school. We had parents of middleschoolers come in and complain that an 8th grade math decsion about placement was going to screw their kids over from getting into Yale, nevermind that the kid was placed correctly. Parents of 8th graders who could barely read, or who were in special programs for low IQs would talk about how thier kids were going to go to college just like everyone else. Students who clearly hated school and were prime candidates for trade schools and talked about wanting a trade were pushed by parents to get a college degree because it was what everyone should have. I understand that parents all think their kids are god's gift to the world, but at some point reality needs to come into the discussion.

When you have the president say things like more student loans are needed so every kid can go to college there is just an exacerbation of the mind set and further problems. Then these same students who support this message complain when they need to pay it back.

Total Litigator
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Re: New student loan bill pending in Congress

Postby Total Litigator » Wed Dec 05, 2012 4:55 pm

I would do horrible, horrible, things, if I could have an assurance that my $150K in loans would never balloon to more than $225K. Right now, my monthly payments do not even cover the interest. As my salary increases in the future, so do my annual interest payments as the loan amount capitalizes. I will be forever chasing the interest payments in a futile effort to hit the principle. Try as I might, even making $60K to $80K per year, at 7.4% interest on $150K I will have to IBR it and the government will end up footing the bill 25 years from now. Sort of ironic that the higher the government makes my interest rate, the more it will pay. Does that make any sense? No. Of course not. If the gov could just let me hit the principle for a few years, or cap my max interest amount, everyone would be better off.

WhiskeynCoke
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Re: New student loan bill pending in Congress

Postby WhiskeynCoke » Wed Dec 05, 2012 5:57 pm

IBR gone
-No forgiveness at 20/25 year mark (or for public service)
-% based payment comes directly out of your paycheck, like taxes
-Total interest capped at 50% of face value of loans at graduation. (i.e. 100k of loans can only have 50k interest)
-Only applies to new loans
-Paid for by eliminating loan subsidies and forgiveness;
-Interest on loans is tied to treasury rate

Bad news for anyone planning on taking out a ton of loans to go into a low paying legal field. Also means lifetime servitude for those who can't pay of their loans. On the other side, interest is capped so people won't be getting as killed on interest. Will be interesting to see if it gets passed.


This is too good to be true and it will never pass, even if you ignore the whole Democratic senate/presidency roadblock. A 50% cap on interest accrued would be a game changer - one that lenders and their lobbyists would fight tooth and nail. It would actually allow anyone, with any reasonable level of income, to potentially repay their student loans one day (*shock*). The cap makes this proposal FAR superior to IBR forgiveness. Do the math on a 200k loan + interest over 25 years. If it's forgiven, you get completely rocked by the tax bill. You better hope you are broke as shit already, because the IRS doesn't fuck around.

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spleenworship
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Re: New student loan bill pending in Congress

Postby spleenworship » Wed Dec 05, 2012 6:02 pm

WhiskeynCoke wrote:
IBR gone
-No forgiveness at 20/25 year mark (or for public service)
-% based payment comes directly out of your paycheck, like taxes
-Total interest capped at 50% of face value of loans at graduation. (i.e. 100k of loans can only have 50k interest)
-Only applies to new loans
-Paid for by eliminating loan subsidies and forgiveness;
-Interest on loans is tied to treasury rate

Bad news for anyone planning on taking out a ton of loans to go into a low paying legal field. Also means lifetime servitude for those who can't pay of their loans. On the other side, interest is capped so people won't be getting as killed on interest. Will be interesting to see if it gets passed.


This is too good to be true and it will never pass, even if you ignore the whole Democratic senate/presidency roadblock. A 50% cap on interest accrued would be a game changer - one that lenders and their lobbyists would fight tooth and nail. It would actually allow anyone, with any reasonable level of income, to potentially repay their student loans one day (*shock*). The cap makes this proposal FAR superior to IBR forgiveness. Do the math on a 200k loan + interest over 25 years. If it's forgiven, you get completely rocked by the tax bill. You better hope you are broke as shit already, because the IRS doesn't fuck around.



except that, if you don't make enough money, you will pay until the day of your death.

WhiskeynCoke
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Re: New student loan bill pending in Congress

Postby WhiskeynCoke » Wed Dec 05, 2012 6:25 pm

except that, if you don't make enough money, you will pay until the day of your death.


Perhaps the false promise of forgiveness wouldn't lure you into taking out 250K in the first place, instead pushing you toward the cheaper choice?

The whole "forgiveness" concept and IBR is ridiculous:
1. Most people doing IBR never even make a dent in their principal and instead allow the interest to accrue tremendously.
2. After 25 years this $500k+ monster is "forgiven" = Taxpayers (us) lose and lenders (banks, private capital) win.
3. The IRS charges you the appropriate taxes on your $500k+ "income," and you are rendered a pauper for eternity.

Vs. Interest capped at 50%
1. If you take $150k debt = $225k total to be paid, no matter how long it takes you
2. If you average $750/month payments for 25 years, your loan is paid in full, with no tax bill. (see above for 25 years of IBR payments)
3. Everyone wins. Lenders still make money, just less egregious amounts.

I can't see how this idea wouldn't improve the prospects of nearly every student loan debtor.

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SemperLegal
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Re: New student loan bill pending in Congress

Postby SemperLegal » Wed Dec 05, 2012 6:38 pm

I never liked IBR, its essentially an incentive for colleges to charge whatever they want, for students to disregard actual costs, and a massive liability for the tax payer. It needs to go away, though I would like debts that were already disbursed, and maybe one grace year to be included.

I think it makes sense to get rid of government-backed student loans completely and replace them with a few need based loan systems. The reason that UC tuition has gone through the roof is because of those loans. If you cut them, schools will begin to cut costs and create their own payment plans to draw in the cash cows that are undergraduate students. I think fairness only requires equal access to a college degree, not to an elite college degree. This does mean that states will have to fund their public education system better., and may have to modify there course load and facilities to better reflect modern education. This also would require an actually meaningfulness public high school system and community college system.

As an aside, elite schools (HPY) will do what they always did, admit rich people and continue to use them as cash cows to fuel a massive endowment and fund merit scholarships.

As for graduate school, there should be no public aid at all. If you want to go to graduate school either find a funded position, work a decade, or make your case to a private lender. When graduate students can't pay 70k a year and seats start going empty, tuition rates will fall.

otnemem
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Re: New student loan bill pending in Congress

Postby otnemem » Wed Dec 05, 2012 6:49 pm

For people not qualifying for the public 10 year plan, this would be a great deal. I'd sign up for this in a heartbeat if I could.

sadsituationJD
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Re: New student loan bill pending in Congress

Postby sadsituationJD » Wed Dec 05, 2012 10:13 pm

No reason why law school couldn't be a mere 2 year associate's degree, held nights in a community college and real-world gutter-sucking shitlaw taught by in-the-trenches shitlawyers. Follow that with a mandatory shitlaw office "residency" of two to four years, then some sort of exam and licensing system. Washington state is already going down this road (sort of) with Limited License Legal Technician:

http://www.abajournal.com/news/article/ ... l_litigan/

Sure, keep the elite Top 14 schools and socratic bullshit for the biglaw shops, let everyone else just take a few night classes, serve a shitlaw apprenticeship, then turn 'em loose. It arguably would serve the typical shitlaw "client" much better than a current newbie JD going all "rule against perpetuities" on some janitor's will or all Palsgraf on some rinky-dink fender bender. 99% of shitlaw is just desperate haggling with nasty insurance adjusters for lowball settlements on garbage cases. Needless to say, it takes little in terms of writing ability, logic, or intellect.

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dingbat
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Re: New student loan bill pending in Congress

Postby dingbat » Wed Dec 05, 2012 10:27 pm

sadsituationJD wrote:No reason why law school couldn't be a mere 2 year associate's degree, held nights in a community college and real-world gutter-sucking shitlaw taught by in-the-trenches shitlawyers. Follow that with a mandatory shitlaw office "residency" of two to four years, then some sort of exam and licensing system. Washington state is already going down this road (sort of) with Limited License Legal Technician.

I believe wisconsin doesn't require any legal education if you apprentice under a real attorney
The US is one of the only countries in the western world that doesn't require some kind of apprenticeship for attorneys

Anonimo
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Re: New student loan bill pending in Congress

Postby Anonimo » Wed Dec 05, 2012 11:32 pm

I'm curious. How many of you will or have law school and undergraduate related debt?

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spleenworship
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Re: New student loan bill pending in Congress

Postby spleenworship » Thu Dec 06, 2012 12:12 am

Anonimo wrote:I'm curious. How many of you will or have law school and undergraduate related debt?


The majority.

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dingbat
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Re: New student loan bill pending in Congress

Postby dingbat » Thu Dec 06, 2012 12:12 am

spleenworship wrote:
Anonimo wrote:I'm curious. How many of you will or have law school and undergraduate related debt?


The vast majority.

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justonemoregame
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Re: New student loan bill pending in Congress

Postby justonemoregame » Thu Dec 06, 2012 12:20 am

dingbat wrote:
spleenworship wrote:
Anonimo wrote:I'm curious. How many of you will or have law school and undergraduate related debt?


The vast majority.


Toss in some grad debt, too

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spleenworship
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Re: New student loan bill pending in Congress

Postby spleenworship » Thu Dec 06, 2012 12:32 am

justonemoregame wrote:
dingbat wrote:
spleenworship wrote:
Anonimo wrote:I'm curious. How many of you will or have law school and undergraduate related debt?


The vast majority.


Toss in some grad debt, too


And probably some credit card debt.

09042014
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Re: New student loan bill pending in Congress

Postby 09042014 » Thu Dec 06, 2012 1:06 am

I'd take this easy. The interest cap, and treasury rate would be fucking huge for anyone with big loans.

Big Dog
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Re: New student loan bill pending in Congress

Postby Big Dog » Thu Dec 06, 2012 1:11 am

Vs. Interest capped at 50%
1. If you take $150k debt = $225k total to be paid, no matter how long it takes you
2. If you average $750/month payments for 25 years, your loan is paid in full, with no tax bill. (see above for 25 years of IBR payments)
3. Everyone wins. Lenders still make money, just less egregious amounts.


What about taxpayers when interest rates rise? :?

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Mr Cooper
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Re: New student loan bill pending in Congress

Postby Mr Cooper » Thu Dec 06, 2012 1:19 am

Desert Fox wrote:I'd take this easy. The interest cap, and treasury rate would be fucking huge for anyone with big loans.


As stated earlier, it really only will help those going to a good school (T14?) who will get a job that can justify taking out those kinds of loans. For the bottom 80% of law grads, most are likely indentured for life. Of course schollys negate everything I just said...

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SuperCerealBrah
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Re: New student loan bill pending in Congress

Postby SuperCerealBrah » Thu Dec 06, 2012 1:26 am

sadsituationJD wrote:No reason why law school couldn't be a mere 2 year associate's degree, held nights in a community college and real-world gutter-sucking shitlaw taught by in-the-trenches shitlawyers. Follow that with a mandatory shitlaw office "residency" of two to four years, then some sort of exam and licensing system. Washington state is already going down this road (sort of) with Limited License Legal Technician:

http://www.abajournal.com/news/article/ ... l_litigan/

Sure, keep the elite Top 14 schools and socratic bullshit for the biglaw shops, let everyone else just take a few night classes, serve a shitlaw apprenticeship, then turn 'em loose. It arguably would serve the typical shitlaw "client" much better than a current newbie JD going all "rule against perpetuities" on some janitor's will or all Palsgraf on some rinky-dink fender bender. 99% of shitlaw is just desperate haggling with nasty insurance adjusters for lowball settlements on garbage cases. Needless to say, it takes little in terms of writing ability, logic, or intellect.


Why not make it exactly the same as accounting is? An undergrad degree with a substantial amount of law hours to be allowed to sit for the bar. And then you have to work under an attorney for a year or something before getting the JD. I really don't understand why they can't just set it up the same exact way as a CPA.

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SuperCerealBrah
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Re: New student loan bill pending in Congress

Postby SuperCerealBrah » Thu Dec 06, 2012 1:37 am

OfferSecured wrote:about Goddamn time. I am sick of these losers taking out huge loans to go to shit schools. NOT EVERYONE deserves a right to an education. Some people need to learn a trade. World ain't fair, if you are a dumbass you are a dumbass.
[/quote]


You seem very naive. I don't think the world is quite that black and white where all these highly indebted students "lived like heiresses" and majored in "general studies". Also, your quotes are hard to navigate.

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spleenworship
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Re: New student loan bill pending in Congress

Postby spleenworship » Thu Dec 06, 2012 1:39 am

SuperCerealBrah wrote:
sadsituationJD wrote:No reason why law school couldn't be a mere 2 year associate's degree, held nights in a community college and real-world gutter-sucking shitlaw taught by in-the-trenches shitlawyers. Follow that with a mandatory shitlaw office "residency" of two to four years, then some sort of exam and licensing system. Washington state is already going down this road (sort of) with Limited License Legal Technician:

http://www.abajournal.com/news/article/ ... l_litigan/

Sure, keep the elite Top 14 schools and socratic bullshit for the biglaw shops, let everyone else just take a few night classes, serve a shitlaw apprenticeship, then turn 'em loose. It arguably would serve the typical shitlaw "client" much better than a current newbie JD going all "rule against perpetuities" on some janitor's will or all Palsgraf on some rinky-dink fender bender. 99% of shitlaw is just desperate haggling with nasty insurance adjusters for lowball settlements on garbage cases. Needless to say, it takes little in terms of writing ability, logic, or intellect.


Why not make it exactly the same as accounting is? An undergrad degree with a substantial amount of law hours to be allowed to sit for the bar. And then you have to work under an attorney for a year or something before getting the JD. I really don't understand why they can't just set it up the same exact way as a CPA.


Because the schools make shittons of money this way. I totally agree with you, btw, but that's why they "can't" do it.




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