The insanity of paying sticker...

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megagnarley
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The insanity of paying sticker...

Postby megagnarley » Mon Nov 05, 2012 2:34 pm

There are all sorts of opinions floating around about this on TLS.

For you personally, where would you draw the line at paying sticker assuming you'd be taking on the entire debt? HYS? T-6? T-14?

Include some reasoning as well and let's see what views are out there.

RodneyBoonfield
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Re: The insanity of paying sticker...

Postby RodneyBoonfield » Mon Nov 05, 2012 2:37 pm

retake

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megagnarley
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Re: The insanity of paying sticker...

Postby megagnarley » Mon Nov 05, 2012 2:41 pm

RodneyBoonfield wrote:retake


This isn't about me. My path is set.

This is a general question of TSL'ers approach to risk aversion and value placed on JD.

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bizzybone1313
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Re: The insanity of paying sticker...

Postby bizzybone1313 » Mon Nov 05, 2012 2:43 pm

HYSC. Maybe the second C, but I am not particularly fond of Chicago. The legal industry thinks highly of Chicago though and that's all that really matters.

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RSterling
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Re: The insanity of paying sticker...

Postby RSterling » Mon Nov 05, 2012 2:45 pm

HYS. I would probably take one of MVP with >45k over any of CCN. I'm not that interested in biglaw though, so that's something to consider.

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bk1
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Re: The insanity of paying sticker...

Postby bk1 » Mon Nov 05, 2012 2:46 pm


CanadianWolf
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Re: The insanity of paying sticker...

Postby CanadianWolf » Mon Nov 05, 2012 2:49 pm

Yale, Stanford, Harvard, Columbia & Chicago as well as in-state tuition at a state school in the state in which you want to live & work. NYU if it meets your needs. Any Canadian law school if you want to stay in Canada.

M458
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Re: The insanity of paying sticker...

Postby M458 » Mon Nov 05, 2012 2:52 pm

Nowhere--I figure if I were in a position to get into HYS, I'd be getting substantial scholarship $ at another highly-ranked school. Since I have little interest in PI/government/clerkships, I think it'd make more sense to go to UChi..Penn..even Northwestern with substantial money.

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sinfiery
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Re: The insanity of paying sticker...

Postby sinfiery » Mon Nov 05, 2012 2:55 pm

M458 wrote:Nowhere--I figure if I were in a position to get into HYS, I'd be getting substantial scholarship $ at another highly-ranked school. Since I have little interest in PI/government/clerkships, I think it'd make more sense to go to UChi..Penn..even Northwestern with substantial money.

Don't HYS give substantial need-based aid relative to the T14?

NDOMUKONGGGG
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Re: The insanity of paying sticker...

Postby NDOMUKONGGGG » Mon Nov 05, 2012 3:03 pm

Also, I've notice that some schools ask you whether you're applying for financial aid as a part of the initial application packet. WHY do they ask that???? Do adcoms consider financial needs when evaluating apps? No way right?

Aren't admissions are supposed to be need-blind?!?! If adcoms see one applicant who is applying for aid and another who would pay sticker, they can't consider that right?

CanadianWolf
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Re: The insanity of paying sticker...

Postby CanadianWolf » Mon Nov 05, 2012 3:06 pm

HY&S only offer need based aid.

M458
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Re: The insanity of paying sticker...

Postby M458 » Mon Nov 05, 2012 3:11 pm

sinfiery wrote:
M458 wrote:Nowhere--I figure if I were in a position to get into HYS, I'd be getting substantial scholarship $ at another highly-ranked school. Since I have little interest in PI/government/clerkships, I think it'd make more sense to go to UChi..Penn..even Northwestern with substantial money.

Don't HYS give substantial need-based aid relative to the T14?


Not quite; if you read a bit more on Harvard and Yale's financial aid pages (haven't taken a look at Stanford), they do give a good amount of need-based aid, but there is an expected amount that they will have you take out in loans before they provide you with grants. That amount of loans, if I'm remembering correctly, is around $38-$40k. And it's not like you can lower this amount if you really need to with savings or a summer SA, because they factor those in as well into the assets you have and that reduces your grants. So really, going to HYS, unless I'm missing something, results in graduating with at least $120k in debt. That doesn't take into account accrued interest.

I know it's blasphemy here to pass up HYS, but I'd personally choose another school in the T-14 with substantial scholarship money over $120k in debt, even if it is HYS.

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sinfiery
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Re: The insanity of paying sticker...

Postby sinfiery » Mon Nov 05, 2012 3:11 pm

CanadianWolf wrote:HY&S only offer need based aid.

Are you given this information before you accept/decline admission?


M458 wrote:
sinfiery wrote:
M458 wrote:Nowhere--I figure if I were in a position to get into HYS, I'd be getting substantial scholarship $ at another highly-ranked school. Since I have little interest in PI/government/clerkships, I think it'd make more sense to go to UChi..Penn..even Northwestern with substantial money.

Don't HYS give substantial need-based aid relative to the T14?


Not quite; if you read a bit more on Harvard and Yale's financial aid pages (haven't taken a look at Stanford), they do give a good amount of need-based aid, but there is an expected amount that they will have you take out in loans before they provide you with grants. That amount of loans, if I'm remembering correctly, is around $38-$40k. And it's not like you can lower this amount if you really need to with savings or a summer SA, because they factor those in as well into the assets you have and that reduces your grants. So really, going to HYS, unless I'm missing something, results in graduating with at least $120k in debt. That doesn't take into account accrued interest.

I know it's blasphemy here to pass up HYS, but I'd personally choose another school in the T-14 with substantial scholarship money over $120k in debt, even if it is HYS.


That's still 100k scholly from T14 for an equal loan amount if you can get the most out of HY need programs for it to start as an equal cost.

Past that 100k, schools might give 50k (IE: NU scholly).

Would you take the 50k + NU vs HY?

I wouldn't. But at the same time, a 100k benefit from HY isn't guaranteed but NU ED 150k is.
Last edited by sinfiery on Mon Nov 05, 2012 3:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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alwayssunnyinfl
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Re: The insanity of paying sticker...

Postby alwayssunnyinfl » Mon Nov 05, 2012 3:14 pm

bizzybone1313 wrote:HYSC. Maybe the second C, but I am not particularly fond of Chicago. The legal industry thinks highly of Chicago though and that's all that really matters.

How many times do people have to tell you that HYSC isn't a thing?

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Re: The insanity of paying sticker...

Postby M458 » Mon Nov 05, 2012 3:21 pm

sinfiery wrote:
CanadianWolf wrote:HY&S only offer need based aid.

Are you given this information before you accept/decline admission?


M458 wrote:
sinfiery wrote:
M458 wrote:Nowhere--I figure if I were in a position to get into HYS, I'd be getting substantial scholarship $ at another highly-ranked school. Since I have little interest in PI/government/clerkships, I think it'd make more sense to go to UChi..Penn..even Northwestern with substantial money.

Don't HYS give substantial need-based aid relative to the T14?


Not quite; if you read a bit more on Harvard and Yale's financial aid pages (haven't taken a look at Stanford), they do give a good amount of need-based aid, but there is an expected amount that they will have you take out in loans before they provide you with grants. That amount of loans, if I'm remembering correctly, is around $38-$40k. And it's not like you can lower this amount if you really need to with savings or a summer SA, because they factor those in as well into the assets you have and that reduces your grants. So really, going to HYS, unless I'm missing something, results in graduating with at least $120k in debt. That doesn't take into account accrued interest.

I know it's blasphemy here to pass up HYS, but I'd personally choose another school in the T-14 with substantial scholarship money over $120k in debt, even if it is HYS.


That's still 100k scholly from T14 for an equal loan amount if you can get the most out of HY need programs for it to start as an equal cost.

Past that 100k, schools might give 50k (IE: NU scholly).

Would you take the 50k + NU vs HY?

I wouldn't. But at the same time, a 100k benefit from HY isn't guaranteed but NU ED 150k is.


I think the HYS choice makes more sense for someone coming out of undergrad without any savings. For someone who's been working for a few years (my case personally), you could conceivably have a good amount of savings already. Let's throw out $50k in savings plus another $20k from doing an SA. That's $70k that HYS will expect you to contribute and will reduce your grants due to. NU with $150k scholly and $70k in this scenario means you're basically graduating debt-free.

Debt-free NU w/ 40-50ish% chance of Big Law vs. 120k debt HYS w/ 70-80ish% chance of Big Law. It's definitely not cut-and-dry, but I'd lean to NU.

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Rahviveh
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Re: The insanity of paying sticker...

Postby Rahviveh » Mon Nov 05, 2012 3:27 pm

M458 wrote:
I think the HYS choice makes more sense for someone coming out of undergrad without any savings. For someone who's been working for a few years (my case personally), you could conceivably have a good amount of savings already. Let's throw out $50k in savings plus another $20k from doing an SA. That's $70k that HYS will expect you to contribute and will reduce your grants due to. NU with $150k scholly and $70k in this scenario means you're basically graduating debt-free.

Debt-free NU w/ 40-50ish% chance of Big Law vs. 120k debt HYS w/ 70-80ish% chance of Big Law. It's definitely not cut-and-dry, but I'd lean to NU.


I would easily lean to HYS. JMO though.

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sinfiery
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Re: The insanity of paying sticker...

Postby sinfiery » Mon Nov 05, 2012 3:51 pm

M458 wrote:
I think the HYS choice makes more sense for someone coming out of undergrad without any savings. For someone who's been working for a few years (my case personally), you could conceivably have a good amount of savings already. Let's throw out $50k in savings plus another $20k from doing an SA. That's $70k that HYS will expect you to contribute and will reduce your grants due to. NU with $150k scholly and $70k in this scenario means you're basically graduating debt-free.

Debt-free NU w/ 40-50ish% chance of Big Law vs. 120k debt HYS w/ 70-80ish% chance of Big Law. It's definitely not cut-and-dry, but I'd lean to NU.

That does indeed change it.

If it's biglaw or bust and debt obligations as your only 2 considerations, I could see thinking of NU in that scenario.


Question: Can one use SA $$ to pay off UG debt obligations without losing money from HYS?
Or do they just base it off of reported income and not savings?

(my case personally is right from UG so we definitely have different view points)

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Re: The insanity of paying sticker...

Postby M458 » Mon Nov 05, 2012 4:00 pm

sinfiery wrote:That does indeed change it.

If Biglaw it's biglaw or bust and debt obligations as your only 2 considerations, I could see thinking of NU in that scenario.


Question: Can one use SA $$ to pay off UG debt obligations without losing money from HYS?
Or do they just base it off of reported income and not savings?

(my case personally is right from UG so we definitely have different view points)


Yeah, it's definitely a personal decision; I also happen to live in Chicago and would like to end up working here, so I'm definitely biased. Though you should keep in mind moving expenses for summer jobs--it's a lot easier if you can stay in your same school-year apartment during the summer. Granted, that's probably only possible at a few schools that are in major cities, but subletting your apartment, finding a new one for the summer, and moving back and forth does add up.

No idea about how HYS handle UG debt; I remember reading something that said they'll let you use $6k from your SA for living expenses and anything else, but anything above that counts towards your expected contribution. I would send them an email and see what they say.

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bizzybone1313
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Re: The insanity of paying sticker...

Postby bizzybone1313 » Tue Nov 06, 2012 2:27 am

alwayssunnyinfl wrote:
bizzybone1313 wrote:HYSC. Maybe the second C, but I am not particularly fond of Chicago. The legal industry thinks highly of Chicago though and that's all that really matters.

How many times do people have to tell you that HYSC isn't a thing?


About 100 more times. I have never heard anyone on TLS clearly explain why S is a top 3 school. Columbia has produced far more distinguished alumni than Stanford; the difference is not even remotely close. Is it because of class size? I don't really know. Does anyone really know what the answer is? Referring to the U.S. News and World Report's rankings isn't an adequate answer.

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bk1
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Re: The insanity of paying sticker...

Postby bk1 » Tue Nov 06, 2012 2:31 am

bizzybone1313 wrote:About 100 more times. I have never heard anyone on TLS clearly explain why S is a top 3 school. Columbia has produced far more distinguished alumni than Stanford; the difference is not even remotely close. Is it because of class size? I don't really know. Does anyone really know what the answer is? Referring to the U.S. News and World Report's rankings isn't an adequate answer.


A3 clerkship percentage.

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Re: The insanity of paying sticker...

Postby sapien » Tue Nov 06, 2012 5:08 am

bizzybone1313 wrote:
alwayssunnyinfl wrote:
bizzybone1313 wrote:HYSC. Maybe the second C, but I am not particularly fond of Chicago. The legal industry thinks highly of Chicago though and that's all that really matters.

How many times do people have to tell you that HYSC isn't a thing?


About 100 more times. I have never heard anyone on TLS clearly explain why S is a top 3 school. Columbia has produced far more distinguished alumni than Stanford; the difference is not even remotely close. Is it because of class size? I don't really know. Does anyone really know what the answer is? Referring to the U.S. News and World Report's rankings isn't an adequate answer.


Do you want to go to a school that has famous alumni or a school that provides its current students with markedly better employment prospects?

Also, do you want to go to a school that gives 2 grades or do you want to be graded on a curve, competing with over 400 students who are just as smart as you? There's a reason that S, H, and Y don't allow Early Decision applications. And there's a reason that S gives financial aid based on need and does not feel obligated to give merit aid to applicants to lure them away from better schools. Etc. Etc.

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kwu
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Re: The insanity of paying sticker...

Postby kwu » Tue Nov 06, 2012 6:22 am

"Columbia has produced far more distinguished alumni than Stanford; the difference is not even remotely close."

CLS: Harlan Fisk Stone, Benjamin Cardozo, Henry Clay Folger, Lee Bollinger, George Pataki, Ruth Bader Ginsberg

SLS: Sandra Day O'Connor, William Rehnquist

I wanted to call BS, but I did some research, and these were the names that jumped out at me.

At any rate, it's tragicomic how ever law school kind of sucks at producing notable alumni.

To answer OP's question, HYS.

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dingbat
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Re: The insanity of paying sticker...

Postby dingbat » Tue Nov 06, 2012 9:13 am

kwu wrote:"Columbia has produced far more distinguished alumni than Stanford; the difference is not even remotely close."

CLS: Harlan Fisk Stone, Benjamin Cardozo, Henry Clay Folger, Lee Bollinger, George Pataki, Ruth Bader Ginsberg

SLS: Sandra Day O'Connor, William Rehnquist

I wanted to call BS, but I did some research, and these were the names that jumped out at me.

At any rate, it's tragicomic how ever law school kind of sucks at producing notable alumni.

To answer OP's question, HYS.

Well, Columbia has been around longer and the 9th Circuit hasn't been as important/influential for nearly as long. That's like saying Oxford has produced far more distinguished alumni than Princeton. Makes sense if you've got a couple hundred years head start.
50 years ago, no one would claim Stanford belonged in the upper echelon. 300 years ago, no one would claim the same about Harvard. Times change - deal with it.

To go back to the original question. Of the schools I applied to, Columbia was the only one I was willing to consider at sticker (except for the Hail Mary I sent to Yale, which surprisingly didn't auto-reject me).

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Rahviveh
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Re: The insanity of paying sticker...

Postby Rahviveh » Tue Nov 06, 2012 3:06 pm

Seems like sticker is an arbitrary cutoff. Even if youre getting up to 70-80k at some of these schools, you'll still be in over 200k+ of debt (accounting for tuition hikes and interest). That seems just as dangerous and you would need biglaw to pay off that debt. Doesn't it make more sense to maximize your chances at biglaw in that case?

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vanwinkle
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Re: The insanity of paying sticker...

Postby vanwinkle » Tue Nov 06, 2012 3:08 pm

ChampagnePapi wrote:Seems like sticker is an arbitrary cutoff. Even if youre getting up to 70-80k at some of these schools, you'll still be in over 200k+ of debt (accounting for tuition hikes and interest). That seems just as dangerous and you would need biglaw to pay off that debt. Doesn't it make more sense to maximize your chances at biglaw in that case?

This is why I think most scholarships are irrelevant. Unless you're getting half-tuition or more, it's not going to be a big enough difference to matter.

(At most schools, tuition ~ $40K and COL ~ $20K, so "half-tuition scholarship" is $20K but you're still borrowing $40K per year.)




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