vanwinkle wrote:Undergrad is less difficult and costs less, and there are far more jobs that require a bachelor's than require a JD. This makes the reward for UG much higher and the risk much lower.
You can't just say everything's a risk. It matters how much risk for how much reward. Otherwise you're just gambling, and at $200K to play, law school is one hell of a ridiculous gamble.
I'd agree that a UG degree has a lower risk to reward ratio.
Unless you're paying sticker at Ivy/Out-of-state for your English/Pre-law/hundreds of other non-skill based degrees.
Then the answer is, no. It isn't.
The difficulty of UG is easier.
But the way TLS judges difficulty, it is harder.
Why? Everyone in UG has the same GPA from HS, similar SAT/ACTs, they all try. But, in LS the graduation rate is far higher than the UG graduation rate.
I was more-or-less making fun of the complete anonymity approach people here say to take towards your expected class rank in LS. What is really different about UG? Is lack-of-effort that rampant at real UGs? (At my TTT, it was. Thus I agree UG is easier.)
Right, the odds of which are ridiculously low from the 0L starting point.
Indeed. But 5000% pay-off and it is possible. I'd buy that lottery ticket. All day, erryday.
Okay, well, on the 0L front, even if you go to a T6 you can't assume you'll get BigLaw, and even those who have T6 and work BigLaw for a while will not keep making over $160K/yr.
Indeed. NLJS250 leaves it at about 47% for T4-8. T1-3, one would assume don't all want Biglaw. I'd say, realistically, 70% of those who want biglaw get it from T6.
They will not necessarily make "500% more" over 40 years than those that didn't make BigLaw, because they'll ultimately end up in non-BigLaw jobs with salary bands that overlap what the folks who didn't make BigLaw are earning. If you do BigLaw for 5 years and then go be a public defender, you're making as much for the following 35 years as everyone who started out as a public defender is making.
Indeed. They won't necessarily make more.
But this is a financial reasoning for LS. If you went to a T6 and are attempting to gain financial benefit from the decision by the public defender route, you are likely at the bottom of your class.
As we are assuming there is no way at all to dictate your position in class rank before entering LS, a scholly + T100 could very easily end up at the bottom of his class and working at McDonalds. Or if you believe TLS, at the medium of his class and working at starbucks.
The risk is there for T6, but it's also there for T100 with scholly. And UG. As someone said, 85k mid career salary is not the average. That is very respectable.
I'd say the biggest benefit from a T6 education is indeed job placement. Considering how big of a deal unemployment is on TLS, would one really say that's not a very big deal?
It's not, necessarily. It's worth it in terms of odds and chances, but not making more money in the same job. If you make BigLaw you'll make similar money as everyone else in BigLaw. If you leave BigLaw and go do gov't/PI work then you'll make the same as other people doing gov't/PI work. If you leave and go join a small practice then you'll make as much as anyone else in that practice. The pedigree may be good for helping you land those jobs, but it won't be good for helping you make more money than other people in those same jobs.
It is a ridiculous assumption to think going to a T6 will guarantee you long-term riches.
I think we generally agree. In terms of odds, it is worth it. It gets you in the door. It won't make you rich, but there is a chance you will be. It gets you in the door. A big benefit, imo.
This is only true if you pay off everything within 5 years. And if you do, then yes, the costs stop then.
What you're missing is that there is no guarantee the income will keep flowing at higher and higher levels after 5 years. Hell, it's a mistake to assume that if you get BigLaw you'll be allowed to stay 5 years. Some people get pushed out faster or burn out faster. A lot of people can't take BigLaw hours forever; they start leaving around the 3-4 year mark and move to jobs that pay less but are survivable to them. If you haven't paid off all your debts by then, you're still going to have costs continuing for much longer because you're likely settling for a lower income in exchange for better quality of life, and lower income means less money to put toward your debts each year.
As a 0L, even going to T6, you can't assume you'll get BigLaw. Or that you'll stay in it for 5 years if you get it. Or that you'll get a job that will ever pay as much as BigLaw did after you leave. Because even among those who get BigLaw there are a significant number of people who end up not making that kind of money for long.
Indeed. Risks are present. Life ain't perfect, even at a T6. But I'd much rather be in this position than T100 with $$$ with or without Biglaw.
This being the statement I found ridiculous.
So in other words, you're living like you would have lived without getting biglaw if you just went to a school that gave you a full tuition scholarship.