Just read Don't Go to Law School (Unless)

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JCougar
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Re: Just read Don't Go to Law School (Unless)

Postby JCougar » Wed Oct 17, 2012 9:45 pm

I don't believe private student loans were ever guaranteed by the government, but I could be wrong.

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hume85
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Re: Just read Don't Go to Law School (Unless)

Postby hume85 » Sat Oct 20, 2012 6:07 pm

JCougar wrote:
BruceWayne wrote:Exactly. One thing that just isn't stressed enough on here is that once you strike out on biglaw, the "mystique" and prestige benefits of a top 14 law degree almost completely dissipate. Of course you are not seen as being exactly the same as a Cooley or Florida Coastal grad. But that doesn't translate to having the type of hiring advantage that exists for an above median top 14 student vs. an average regional grad.

One more thing to point out in response to the top 14 degree name "cushioning" you even if you miss biglaw. Outside of the extremes like HYS or at the other end of the spectrum a true tier 3 school your grades and whether you were on law review seem to matter a lot more than the school name in terms of "cushioning" you if you miss a firm. Many many legal employers rather have a top 10 or 20 percent UNC student with law review than a below median top 14 one--period. People on here heavily exaggerate the importance of school name for below median students. Once you're below median you're a pariah to employers that care about grades (note what I said there--for employers that care about grades. There are a significant number of legal employers that don't--but those aren't the ones that people attending a top 14 generally expect to be working for).


This is such a good post. Once you strike out at OCI, even from a T14, T25, whatever -- your chances of having a job that offers benefits in any way proportional to your debt is very slim. You'll get "the stink," which means people look at you and decide that something must be seriously wrong with you if you were smart enough to get into a T14, but terrible enough to be in a desperate position despite that.

It's the same "stink" you get from being pushed out of Biglaw early. Biglaw exit options are not always good, and if you only make it 2-3 years, you will still be debt-Pwned.

As I mentioned in another thread, I just spent $150 to pay an ex-Biglaw associate to go down to municipal court and wade through all the crack addicts and drug users from North and East St. Louis to beg the city judge to drop my speeding ticket to a non-moving violation. But I might be in the same position in a year or two.


You make a lot of strong assertions in this post. I am not going to disagree with any of them. But please back them up with sources.

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JCougar
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Re: Just read Don't Go to Law School (Unless)

Postby JCougar » Sat Oct 20, 2012 6:55 pm

hume85 wrote:You make a lot of strong assertions in this post. I am not going to disagree with any of them. But please back them up with sources.


I'm not going to name names if you want me to tell you what former Biglaw associates are doing what right now.

As for the rest of the post, I would just peruse the many threads on here and blog posts about how difficult it is to find a decent job after 2L OCI, whether you struck out, got no-offered, or whether you got Lathamed or Howreyed. And small law is afraid to hire from the T14 or even my T25 because they're all afraid you're either a flight risk once you find something better, or that something's wrong with you if you went to such a good school and still managed to be scrounging around for jobs at their measly firm. Those kind of things I can't source, but you're free to peruse this forum more often to see.

The Biglaw world is only interested in one thing and one thing only: prestige. They don't care about your ability, your desire, your skills, where you last worked if your leaving there was anything but voluntary, etc. Even if it's not your fault, any one of the above (striking out at OCI, no-offer, Lathamed, Howreyd, etc.) reeks of non-prestige, and unless you get an incredibly rare opportunity otherwise, you're tarred for life.

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Re: Just read Don't Go to Law School (Unless)

Postby hume85 » Sat Oct 20, 2012 7:08 pm

JCougar wrote:
hume85 wrote:You make a lot of strong assertions in this post. I am not going to disagree with any of them. But please back them up with sources.


I'm not going to name names if you want me to tell you what former Biglaw associates are doing what right now.

As for the rest of the post, I would just peruse the many threads on here and blog posts about how difficult it is to find a decent job after 2L OCI, whether you struck out, got no-offered, or whether you got Lathamed or Howreyed. And small law is afraid to hire from the T14 or even my T25 because they're all afraid you're either a flight risk once you find something better, or that something's wrong with you if you went to such a good school and still managed to be scrounging around for jobs at their measly firm. Those kind of things I can't source, but you're free to peruse this forum more often to see.

The Biglaw world is only interested in one thing and one thing only: prestige. They don't care about your ability, your desire, your skills, where you last worked if your leaving there was anything but voluntary, etc. Even if it's not your fault, any one of the above (striking out at OCI, no-offer, Lathamed, Howreyd, etc.) reeks of non-prestige, and unless you get an incredibly rare opportunity otherwise, you're tarred for life.


Fair enough, but I have perused the threads on this site with frequency and usually people make assertions without backing them up. I have no idea whether they are correct or not. But usually the stronger evidence is anecdotal, which isn't that strong at all. I don't know what to make of arguments based on assertions that I can't verify. I don't necessarily doubt that you are correct, but how can I know. I have seen the employment data, but data never tells the whole story.
Last edited by hume85 on Sat Oct 20, 2012 7:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Just read Don't Go to Law School (Unless)

Postby ajr » Sat Oct 20, 2012 7:09 pm

JCougar wrote:
hume85 wrote:You make a lot of strong assertions in this post. I am not going to disagree with any of them. But please back them up with sources.


any one of the above (striking out at OCI, no-offer, Lathamed, Howreyd, etc.) reeks of non-prestige


This does not make any sense at all.

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Re: Just read Don't Go to Law School (Unless)

Postby Aberzombie1892 » Sat Oct 20, 2012 7:16 pm

There is a recent URM graduate from Duke undergrad/NYU law/NYU Tax LLM doing doc review in New Orleans for $19 an hour. The upside is it is possible for them to make over $70,000k if they work 60 billing hour weeks. Think about all of that. Also, imagine how much money they likely owe/have paid for this opportunity.

Be aware of the risks of striking out, and also be aware that furthering your education doesn't always work out.
Last edited by Aberzombie1892 on Sat Oct 20, 2012 7:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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JCougar
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Re: Just read Don't Go to Law School (Unless)

Postby JCougar » Sat Oct 20, 2012 7:17 pm

hume85 wrote: I don't necessarily doubt that you are correct, but how can I know. I have seen the employment data, but data never tells the whole story.


The only hiring Biglaw does is 2L OCI and laterals from other Biglaw firms, except in rare circumstances. There's rare exceptions, such as sometimes a super-good public defender might get scooped up by a Biglaw litigation department, or a rising star in a government agency might lateral into that practice area, etc. Biglaw never advertises for job openings. They don't have job fairs. EVERYTHING is done through their feeder schools CSO via 2L OCI. It's industry standard practice. All you need to do is e-mail their recruiting departments and verify this. This does not need to be cited. It is common knowledge.

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JCougar
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Re: Just read Don't Go to Law School (Unless)

Postby JCougar » Sat Oct 20, 2012 7:19 pm

ajr wrote:
JCougar wrote:
hume85 wrote:You make a lot of strong assertions in this post. I am not going to disagree with any of them. But please back them up with sources.


any one of the above (striking out at OCI, no-offer, Lathamed, Howreyd, etc.) reeks of non-prestige


This does not make any sense at all.


It will soon enough.

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Re: Just read Don't Go to Law School (Unless)

Postby ajr » Sat Oct 20, 2012 7:20 pm

JCougar wrote:
ajr wrote:
JCougar wrote:
hume85 wrote:You make a lot of strong assertions in this post. I am not going to disagree with any of them. But please back them up with sources.


any one of the above (striking out at OCI, no-offer, Lathamed, Howreyd, etc.) reeks of non-prestige


This does not make any sense at all.


It will soon enough.


Huh? It may for you if this is your sense of logic. Not going to a T14 does not "reek of non-prestige" but striking out at OCI "reeks of non-prestige"? Lol.

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Re: Just read Don't Go to Law School (Unless)

Postby ajr » Sat Oct 20, 2012 7:23 pm

JCougar wrote:
ajr wrote:
JCougar wrote:
hume85 wrote:You make a lot of strong assertions in this post. I am not going to disagree with any of them. But please back them up with sources.


any one of the above (striking out at OCI, no-offer, Lathamed, Howreyd, etc.) reeks of non-prestige


This does not make any sense at all.


It will soon enough.


Good luck with your career and life btw breh.

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JCougar
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Re: Just read Don't Go to Law School (Unless)

Postby JCougar » Sat Oct 20, 2012 7:34 pm

ajr wrote:Huh? It may for you if this is your sense of logic. Not going to a T14 does not "reek of non-prestige" but striking out at OCI "reeks of non-prestige"? Lol.


When did I say not going to a T14 didn't reek of non-prestige? It certainly does reek of non-prestige, and the prestige gap can only be made up for through grades. And prestigious government jobs are pretty much the same way these days.

As far as the non-biglaw/big gov world goes, most of them don't care where you go and don't give a rip about prestige, as long as you're not bottom of your class/flunking out. But they can't pay you enough to pay back sticker price on your loans. So in this sense, you're much better off reducing your costs and going somewhere in the vicinity of where you want to practice. They are actually leery of hiring from the T14 because they're afraid you will bail. Why would one of these places hire you long term if they knew long-term that you would have no way of paying back your loans on the salary the could give you?

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Re: Just read Don't Go to Law School (Unless)

Postby Mce252 » Sat Oct 20, 2012 7:49 pm

My thoughts on attending law school right now:

T6: Go

Other T14: Go at 25 % tuition or above

T15-T30: 50 % tuition or above

Other tier 1-2: 75% tuition or above (if you really know you were born to be an attorney)

Tier 3-4: Full-ride only, with job prospect laid out beforehand

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Re: Just read Don't Go to Law School (Unless)

Postby Aberzombie1892 » Sat Oct 20, 2012 8:37 pm

Mce252 wrote:My thoughts on attending law school right now:

T6: Go

Other T14: Go at 25 % tuition or above

T15-T30: 50 % tuition or above

Other tier 1-2: 75% tuition or above (if you really know you were born to be an attorney)

Tier 3-4: Full-ride only, with job prospect laid out beforehand


NYU isn't worth more than Penn. Also, it seems that historically, Columbia and Penn are peers in terms of NLJ.

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JCougar
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Re: Just read Don't Go to Law School (Unless)

Postby JCougar » Sat Oct 20, 2012 8:40 pm

Mce252 wrote:My thoughts on attending law school right now:

T6: Go

Other T14: Go at 25 % tuition or above

T15-T30: 50 % tuition or above

Other tier 1-2: 75% tuition or above (if you really know you were born to be an attorney)

Tier 3-4: Full-ride only, with job prospect laid out beforehand


That's pretty close to what I'd say, except you're still on the optimistic side. I think it's easier for me to articulate this in terms of total debt, including undergrad debt:

HYS: $200K could be justified if you really want Biglaw. Not for the prestige, but because you are fine with working in a high-stress environment with a lot of hours for at least 5 years after graduation, representing large, sometimes sociopathic clients that are often beating up on the little guy. It's better if you can get into more of a consulting or transactional role at these firms, it seems, which you may have the leverage to ask for if you're from HYS.

Other T14: Same as above, only keep your total debt under $150K. More than half the class at these schools will generally strike out at Biglaw anyway, but with $150K of debt, you can put a significant dent in it with just 1-2 years of Biglaw and then you can bail. The necessity of only having to do 1-2 years in Biglaw also lowers the downside risk if you are Lathamed or your firm collapses a la Howery. You still run the risk of being employed in UVA's or Columbia's school-funded "jobs" after graduation and then becoming completely unemployed, though, which could make this $150K a serious burden.

T15-T30: Same as above, only keep your debt under $100K. You will almost surely be getting paid $60K/year coming from one of these schools, if you are employed at all, but they still offer a non-negligible chance at Biglaw. If your debt is under 6-figures, though, you can manage this long-term. Lawyers that get $60K jobs do eventually make more if they are good, but it's not guaranteed.

Other tier 1-2: Full ride only, not counting living expenses (if you really know you were born to be an attorney). Attending these schools will make it difficult for you to land any full-time legal job at all, but accumulating only living expenses debt during your tenure makes it at least worth a shot if you are really motivated. With only $40K in debt, you could likely "lateral" into retail management and eventually manage that debt.

Tier 3-4: Full-ride only, with job prospect laid out beforehand. Honestly, I think this is even a stretch, depending on how reliable your source for a job prospect laid out beforehand is. A lot of people think they have prospects laid out beforehand, only to find out after graduation that the job has evaporated. These schools are flat out not even worth the opportunity cost of attending. The only way I'd do one of these is if I could do it part-time while working at the very same employer that said they would promote me when my JD is finished.

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Re: Just read Don't Go to Law School (Unless)

Postby hume85 » Sat Oct 20, 2012 8:56 pm

JCougar wrote:
Mce252 wrote:My thoughts on attending law school right now:

T6: Go

Other T14: Go at 25 % tuition or above

T15-T30: 50 % tuition or above

Other tier 1-2: 75% tuition or above (if you really know you were born to be an attorney)

Tier 3-4: Full-ride only, with job prospect laid out beforehand


That's pretty close to what I'd say, except you're still on the optimistic side. I think it's easier for me to articulate this in terms of total debt, including undergrad debt:

HYS: $200K could be justified if you really want Biglaw. Not for the prestige, but because you are fine with working in a high-stress environment with a lot of hours for at least 5 years after graduation, representing large, sometimes sociopathic clients that are often beating up on the little guy. It's better if you can get into more of a consulting or transactional role at these firms, it seems, which you may have the leverage to ask for if you're from HYS.

Other T14: Same as above, only keep your total debt under $150K. More than half the class at these schools will generally strike out at Biglaw anyway, but with $150K of debt, you can put a significant dent in it with just 1-2 years of Biglaw and then you can bail. The necessity of only having to do 1-2 years in Biglaw also lowers the downside risk if you are Lathamed or your firm collapses a la Howery. You still run the risk of being employed in UVA's or Columbia's school-funded "jobs" after graduation and then becoming completely unemployed, though, which could make this $150K a serious burden.

T15-T30: Same as above, only keep your debt under $100K. You will almost surely be getting paid $60K/year coming from one of these schools, if you are employed at all, but they still offer a non-negligible chance at Biglaw. If your debt is under 6-figures, though, you can manage this long-term. Lawyers that get $60K jobs do eventually make more if they are good, but it's not guaranteed.

Other tier 1-2: Full ride only, not counting living expenses (if you really know you were born to be an attorney). Attending these schools will make it difficult for you to land any full-time legal job at all, but accumulating only living expenses debt during your tenure makes it at least worth a shot if you are really motivated. With only $40K in debt, you could likely "lateral" into retail management and eventually manage that debt.

Tier 3-4: Full-ride only, with job prospect laid out beforehand. Honestly, I think this is even a stretch, depending on how reliable your source for a job prospect laid out beforehand is. A lot of people think they have prospects laid out beforehand, only to find out after graduation that the job has evaporated. These schools are flat out not even worth the opportunity cost of attending. The only way I'd do one of these is if I could do it part-time while working at the very same employer that said they would promote me when my JD is finished.


The threads on this site suggest that this is too pessimistic for CCNPN.

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Re: Just read Don't Go to Law School (Unless)

Postby hume85 » Sat Oct 20, 2012 8:58 pm

JCougar wrote:
Mce252 wrote:My thoughts on attending law school right now:

T6: Go

Other T14: Go at 25 % tuition or above

T15-T30: 50 % tuition or above

Other tier 1-2: 75% tuition or above (if you really know you were born to be an attorney)

Tier 3-4: Full-ride only, with job prospect laid out beforehand


That's pretty close to what I'd say, except you're still on the optimistic side. I think it's easier for me to articulate this in terms of total debt, including undergrad debt:

HYS: $200K could be justified if you really want Biglaw. Not for the prestige, but because you are fine with working in a high-stress environment with a lot of hours for at least 5 years after graduation, representing large, sometimes sociopathic clients that are often beating up on the little guy. It's better if you can get into more of a consulting or transactional role at these firms, it seems, which you may have the leverage to ask for if you're from HYS.

Other T14: Same as above, only keep your total debt under $150K. More than half the class at these schools will generally strike out at Biglaw anyway, but with $150K of debt, you can put a significant dent in it with just 1-2 years of Biglaw and then you can bail. The necessity of only having to do 1-2 years in Biglaw also lowers the downside risk if you are Lathamed or your firm collapses a la Howery. You still run the risk of being employed in UVA's or Columbia's school-funded "jobs" after graduation and then becoming completely unemployed, though, which could make this $150K a serious burden.

T15-T30: Same as above, only keep your debt under $100K. You will almost surely be getting paid $60K/year coming from one of these schools, if you are employed at all, but they still offer a non-negligible chance at Biglaw. If your debt is under 6-figures, though, you can manage this long-term. Lawyers that get $60K jobs do eventually make more if they are good, but it's not guaranteed.

Other tier 1-2: Full ride only, not counting living expenses (if you really know you were born to be an attorney). Attending these schools will make it difficult for you to land any full-time legal job at all, but accumulating only living expenses debt during your tenure makes it at least worth a shot if you are really motivated. With only $40K in debt, you could likely "lateral" into retail management and eventually manage that debt.

Tier 3-4: Full-ride only, with job prospect laid out beforehand. Honestly, I think this is even a stretch, depending on how reliable your source for a job prospect laid out beforehand is. A lot of people think they have prospects laid out beforehand, only to find out after graduation that the job has evaporated. These schools are flat out not even worth the opportunity cost of attending. The only way I'd do one of these is if I could do it part-time while working at the very same employer that said they would promote me when my JD is finished.


Hope you meant to say "is" here. Otherwise you are eroding your credibility.
Last edited by hume85 on Sat Oct 20, 2012 9:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Just read Don't Go to Law School (Unless)

Postby JCougar » Sat Oct 20, 2012 9:00 pm

hume85 wrote:
JCougar wrote:
Mce252 wrote:My thoughts on attending law school right now:

T6: Go

Other T14: Go at 25 % tuition or above

T15-T30: 50 % tuition or above

Other tier 1-2: 75% tuition or above (if you really know you were born to be an attorney)

Tier 3-4: Full-ride only, with job prospect laid out beforehand


That's pretty close to what I'd say, except you're still on the optimistic side. I think it's easier for me to articulate this in terms of total debt, including undergrad debt:

HYS: $200K could be justified if you really want Biglaw. Not for the prestige, but because you are fine with working in a high-stress environment with a lot of hours for at least 5 years after graduation, representing large, sometimes sociopathic clients that are often beating up on the little guy. It's better if you can get into more of a consulting or transactional role at these firms, it seems, which you may have the leverage to ask for if you're from HYS.

Other T14: Same as above, only keep your total debt under $150K. More than half the class at these schools will generally strike out at Biglaw anyway, but with $150K of debt, you can put a significant dent in it with just 1-2 years of Biglaw and then you can bail. The necessity of only having to do 1-2 years in Biglaw also lowers the downside risk if you are Lathamed or your firm collapses a la Howery. You still run the risk of being employed in UVA's or Columbia's school-funded "jobs" after graduation and then becoming completely unemployed, though, which could make this $150K a serious burden.

T15-T30: Same as above, only keep your debt under $100K. You will almost surely be getting paid $60K/year coming from one of these schools, if you are employed at all, but they still offer a non-negligible chance at Biglaw. If your debt is under 6-figures, though, you can manage this long-term. Lawyers that get $60K jobs do eventually make more if they are good, but it's not guaranteed.

Other tier 1-2: Full ride only, not counting living expenses (if you really know you were born to be an attorney). Attending these schools will make it difficult for you to land any full-time legal job at all, but accumulating only living expenses debt during your tenure makes it at least worth a shot if you are really motivated. With only $40K in debt, you could likely "lateral" into retail management and eventually manage that debt.

Tier 3-4: Full-ride only, with job prospect laid out beforehand. Honestly, I think this is even a stretch, depending on how reliable your source for a job prospect laid out beforehand is. A lot of people think they have prospects laid out beforehand, only to find out after graduation that the job has evaporated. These schools are flat out not even worth the opportunity cost of attending. The only way I'd do one of these is if I could do it part-time while working at the very same employer that said they would promote me when my JD is finished.


The threads on this site suggest that this is too pessimistic for CCNPN.


You're probably right, but not by much. Keep in mind that the Biglaw placement numbers fluctuate randomly from year-to-year at these schools, so although one may report 55% one year, it could very well be 45% the next year.

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Re: Just read Don't Go to Law School (Unless)

Postby minnbills » Sat Oct 20, 2012 9:01 pm

JCougar wrote:T15-T30: Same as above, only keep your debt under $100K. You will almost surely be getting paid $60K/year coming from one of these schools, if you are employed at all, but they still offer a non-negligible chance at Biglaw. If your debt is under 6-figures, though, you can manage this long-term. Lawyers that get $60K jobs do eventually make more if they are good, but it's not guaranteed.



Unless you're a total mouth-breather you're going to do a lot better than 60k "long term" if that's what you want, if you get a job in law.

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Re: Just read Don't Go to Law School (Unless)

Postby JCougar » Sat Oct 20, 2012 9:06 pm

hume85 wrote:Hope you meant to say "is" here. Otherwise you are eroding your credibility.


Why? How else are you going to pay back $200K in debt even from HYS? Biglaw or government IBR are your only good options. Even a HYS degree won't save you from being laid off if your firm is having problems/collapsing. And I think the stability of a lot of Biglaw firms should be called into question these days. There's a lot of downward pressure on prices, and aside from Howery and Dewey, Greenburg Traurig is looking shaky. I wouldn't be surprised if, in another 2-3 years, a half-dozen of these pyramid schemes end up caving in.

Now, its likely that this won't happen to you unless things get really bad. But there is a chance of it happening, which justifies saying "could be" instead of "is." It could also be argued that the prestige of HYS is enough to overcome a Howrey disaster and find you a second firm, but that's not a sure thing.

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Re: Just read Don't Go to Law School (Unless)

Postby hume85 » Sat Oct 20, 2012 9:08 pm

JCougar wrote:
hume85 wrote:
JCougar wrote:
Mce252 wrote:My thoughts on attending law school right now:

T6: Go

Other T14: Go at 25 % tuition or above

T15-T30: 50 % tuition or above

Other tier 1-2: 75% tuition or above (if you really know you were born to be an attorney)

Tier 3-4: Full-ride only, with job prospect laid out beforehand


That's pretty close to what I'd say, except you're still on the optimistic side. I think it's easier for me to articulate this in terms of total debt, including undergrad debt:

HYS: $200K could be justified if you really want Biglaw. Not for the prestige, but because you are fine with working in a high-stress environment with a lot of hours for at least 5 years after graduation, representing large, sometimes sociopathic clients that are often beating up on the little guy. It's better if you can get into more of a consulting or transactional role at these firms, it seems, which you may have the leverage to ask for if you're from HYS.

Other T14: Same as above, only keep your total debt under $150K. More than half the class at these schools will generally strike out at Biglaw anyway, but with $150K of debt, you can put a significant dent in it with just 1-2 years of Biglaw and then you can bail. The necessity of only having to do 1-2 years in Biglaw also lowers the downside risk if you are Lathamed or your firm collapses a la Howery. You still run the risk of being employed in UVA's or Columbia's school-funded "jobs" after graduation and then becoming completely unemployed, though, which could make this $150K a serious burden.

T15-T30: Same as above, only keep your debt under $100K. You will almost surely be getting paid $60K/year coming from one of these schools, if you are employed at all, but they still offer a non-negligible chance at Biglaw. If your debt is under 6-figures, though, you can manage this long-term. Lawyers that get $60K jobs do eventually make more if they are good, but it's not guaranteed.

Other tier 1-2: Full ride only, not counting living expenses (if you really know you were born to be an attorney). Attending these schools will make it difficult for you to land any full-time legal job at all, but accumulating only living expenses debt during your tenure makes it at least worth a shot if you are really motivated. With only $40K in debt, you could likely "lateral" into retail management and eventually manage that debt.

Tier 3-4: Full-ride only, with job prospect laid out beforehand. Honestly, I think this is even a stretch, depending on how reliable your source for a job prospect laid out beforehand is. A lot of people think they have prospects laid out beforehand, only to find out after graduation that the job has evaporated. These schools are flat out not even worth the opportunity cost of attending. The only way I'd do one of these is if I could do it part-time while working at the very same employer that said they would promote me when my JD is finished.


The threads on this site suggest that this is too pessimistic for CCNPN.


You're probably right, but not by much. Keep in mind that the Biglaw placement numbers fluctuate randomly from year-to-year at these schools, so although one may report 55% one year, it could very well be 45% the next year.


I don't know if this is true for Columbia, Penn or Chicago. Columbia and Penn placed very near or greater than 70% of their classes into law firms of >50 attorneys or federal clerkships from 2009-2011 (going back longer the numbers are even better). The threads on this site suggest Columbia has kept its placement strong since then. But we'll see when the numbers come out. I'm not sure if there have been huge swings in Chicago's placement aside from 2011, but I will look into it. I definitely hear you on NYU's placement not being consistent.

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JCougar
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Re: Just read Don't Go to Law School (Unless)

Postby JCougar » Sat Oct 20, 2012 9:11 pm

minnbills wrote:
JCougar wrote:T15-T30: Same as above, only keep your debt under $100K. You will almost surely be getting paid $60K/year coming from one of these schools, if you are employed at all, but they still offer a non-negligible chance at Biglaw. If your debt is under 6-figures, though, you can manage this long-term. Lawyers that get $60K jobs do eventually make more if they are good, but it's not guaranteed.



Unless you're a total mouth-breather you're going to do a lot better than 60k "long term" if that's what you want, if you get a job in law.


I think a lot of people enter this profession, and then after practicing, decide it's not what they want. Also, I have met a large number of attorneys that don't make much more than that after 20 years of practice. They are usually doing solo practice or working at firms of 2-5 people. The partners at these firms many times are not clearing more than $70K. Then there's the perpetual temps like areyouinsane, who are continually looking for the next doc review project.

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Mce252
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Re: Just read Don't Go to Law School (Unless)

Postby Mce252 » Sat Oct 20, 2012 9:16 pm

Aberzombie1892 wrote:
Mce252 wrote:My thoughts on attending law school right now:

T6: Go

Other T14: Go at 25 % tuition or above

T15-T30: 50 % tuition or above

Other tier 1-2: 75% tuition or above (if you really know you were born to be an attorney)

Tier 3-4: Full-ride only, with job prospect laid out beforehand


NYU isn't worth more than Penn. Also, it seems that historically, Columbia and Penn are peers in terms of NLJ.



The categories can be flexible, but you get my drift.

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hume85
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Re: Just read Don't Go to Law School (Unless)

Postby hume85 » Sat Oct 20, 2012 9:17 pm

JCougar wrote:
hume85 wrote:Hope you meant to say "is" here. Otherwise you are eroding your credibility.


Why? How else are you going to pay back $200K in debt even from HYS? Biglaw or government IBR are your only good options. Even a HYS degree won't save you from being laid off if your firm is having problems/collapsing. And I think the stability of a lot of Biglaw firms should be called into question these days. There's a lot of downward pressure on prices, and aside from Howery and Dewey, Greenburg Traurig is looking shaky. I wouldn't be surprised if, in another 2-3 years, a half-dozen of these pyramid schemes end up caving in.

Now, its likely that this won't happen to you unless things get really bad. But there is a chance of it happening, which justifies saying "could be" instead of "is." It could also be argued that the prestige of HYS is enough to overcome a Howrey disaster and find you a second firm, but that's not a sure thing.


Three firms doesn't constitute a trend, and neither would another half dozen. The odds of being one of these people are pretty low. But know I must admit the limits of my understanding of Biglaw: can't you mitigate the likelihood of ending up at a firm like this by researching the firm's leverage, past layoffs, stealth layoffs, etc.? And as long as you have been working for at least 2 years can't you lateral relatively easily?

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rayiner
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Re: Just read Don't Go to Law School (Unless)

Postby rayiner » Sun Oct 21, 2012 12:06 am

"More than half will strike out" is an exaggeration. Just because someone isn't reported at an NLJ 250 firm at graduation doesn't mean they struck out. My year at NU, we'll probably end up with 60% big law + clerkships like last year, but a pseudo-scientific survey (*cough* stalking people on Linked-In *cough*) of my section shows 75% of people who wanted big law got at least an NLJ 350 firm or boutique (all paying $120k+) for the summer. A substantial number of people don't even want big law. These are not just PI people, but JD-MBA's who select out of law, people who have employers paying for their degrees, etc. Out of the people that do, a substantial number end up at non-NLJ 250 boutiques or decent mid law. There are half a dozen IP boutiques in Chicago that hire quite a few people each year, as well as a handful of non-NLJ 250 firms that pay $120k+. There is some legit secondary-market big law that isn't NLJ 250.

Now, don't get me wrong, 25% of people counting on big law and not getting it still blows. This encompasses some of my friends and trust me, it really sucks. Everyone should contemplate what it would be like to be in that 25% and how they would deal if they ended up there. But it is indeed 25% and not say 55%.

09042014
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Re: Just read Don't Go to Law School (Unless)

Postby 09042014 » Sun Oct 21, 2012 12:58 am

hume85 wrote:
JCougar wrote:
hume85 wrote:Hope you meant to say "is" here. Otherwise you are eroding your credibility.


Why? How else are you going to pay back $200K in debt even from HYS? Biglaw or government IBR are your only good options. Even a HYS degree won't save you from being laid off if your firm is having problems/collapsing. And I think the stability of a lot of Biglaw firms should be called into question these days. There's a lot of downward pressure on prices, and aside from Howery and Dewey, Greenburg Traurig is looking shaky. I wouldn't be surprised if, in another 2-3 years, a half-dozen of these pyramid schemes end up caving in.

Now, its likely that this won't happen to you unless things get really bad. But there is a chance of it happening, which justifies saying "could be" instead of "is." It could also be argued that the prestige of HYS is enough to overcome a Howrey disaster and find you a second firm, but that's not a sure thing.


Three firms doesn't constitute a trend, and neither would another half dozen. The odds of being one of these people are pretty low. But know I must admit the limits of my understanding of Biglaw: can't you mitigate the likelihood of ending up at a firm like this by researching the firm's leverage, past layoffs, stealth layoffs, etc.? And as long as you have been working for at least 2 years can't you lateral relatively easily?


No you really can't tell which firm will be next. Dewey was growing up until it exploded. Go look at what firms people were telling c/o 2013 to avoid, and Dewey wasn't one of them. People were talking about OMM and Orrick. Both are still around and Dewey melted down.

But, you really shouldn't be afraid the firm collapsing (as long as it's just your firm, if the whole market collapses we are all fucked). All of the DC Dewey first year associates were employed by other firms by August (except 2 who started later than the rest of their class and therefore didn't have any connections). Most of the summers who got screwed found other offers too.

So even if it happens, your life isn't over. And the chances of it happening are pretty small.

You should be WAY more afraid of:

1) A general legal recession - the class that did the worst ITE was the one who just finished OCI when the storm hit. Firms just no offered them, then delayed start dates forever

2) No offers- it's real and you should fear it

3) You can't stand biglaw and leave after 2 years with crushing debt around your neck

4) Someone hates you and get performance pwnd and fired after 2 years, again with crushing debt

I think once you make it 4 years, you generally have better exit options.




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