Just read Don't Go to Law School (Unless)

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msquaredb
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Just read Don't Go to Law School (Unless)

Postby msquaredb » Mon Oct 08, 2012 4:26 pm

And it made me feel like nowhere is worth the money besides HYS.

How accurate is this book?

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vanwinkle
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Re: Just read Don't Go to Law School (Unless)

Postby vanwinkle » Mon Oct 08, 2012 4:29 pm

If that's how it made you feel, it may be pretty accurate.

msquaredb
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Re: Just read Don't Go to Law School (Unless)

Postby msquaredb » Mon Oct 08, 2012 4:35 pm

vanwinkle wrote:If that's how it made you feel, it may be pretty accurate.


Haha good point. It made me feel that way because the odds are against you even at CCN as far as paying back debt in a timely manner and living free of that worry.

I probably have a lower level of risk taking and higher level of pessimism than I should, but that still means I would be uncomfortable with my options I guess.

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vanwinkle
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Re: Just read Don't Go to Law School (Unless)

Postby vanwinkle » Mon Oct 08, 2012 4:52 pm

msquaredb wrote:It made me feel that way because the odds are against you even at CCN as far as paying back debt in a timely manner and living free of that worry.

I think I'd agree with that. In order to pay back your debt in a "timely manner" you'd need to 1) find a $160K job and 2) hold it for at least 4-5 years. Even people who manage to do it these days are worried until they get it done.

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BruceWayne
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Re: Just read Don't Go to Law School (Unless)

Postby BruceWayne » Mon Oct 08, 2012 5:06 pm

msquaredb wrote:And it made me feel like nowhere is worth the money besides HYS.

How accurate is this book?


As a 3L knowing what I know now, I would say that this is about the size of things. What changes the calculus for me, and I think many others, is that our options that didn't involve law school are even worse and some of us just prefer legal work to other work.

AllTheLawz
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Re: Just read Don't Go to Law School (Unless)

Postby AllTheLawz » Mon Oct 08, 2012 5:19 pm

Honestly, I don't even think HYS at sticker is worth it (and I say this as an HYS student). Im looking at around $150-160k debt at graduation and, while it will likely be gone in 5 years, it really makes you feel like you don't start your life until you are 30.

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piccolittle
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Re: Just read Don't Go to Law School (Unless)

Postby piccolittle » Mon Oct 08, 2012 5:24 pm

msquaredb wrote:And it made me feel like nowhere is worth the money besides HYS.

How accurate is this book?

I think this is true for the majority of the people who are looking to apply to law school because they can't figure out what to do with their useless college majors. Unfortunately, those are the people who also lack better options, because they don't have work experience or other more marketable qualities. HYS also seem to value better-rounded candidates, where other schools might just be blinded by good numbers. This ends up screwing those high-number, low soft kids, because after admission your (arbitrary) 1L grades and softs mean everything. My main takeaway after OCI is that spending time making yourself a better-rounded candidate outside of numbers (for school, for jobs, for life) is never wasted. So yeah, HYS ----> CCN + scholly + serious credentials beyond college clubs + good interview skills and savvy.

I would say anything below HYS is not worth the money if you are a typical K-JD. [End rant, sorry if that makes no sense]

msquaredb
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Re: Just read Don't Go to Law School (Unless)

Postby msquaredb » Mon Oct 08, 2012 5:33 pm

piccolittle wrote:
msquaredb wrote:And it made me feel like nowhere is worth the money besides HYS.

How accurate is this book?

I think this is true for the majority of the people who are looking to apply to law school because they can't figure out what to do with their useless college majors. Unfortunately, those are the people who also lack better options, because they don't have work experience or other more marketable qualities. HYS also seem to value better-rounded candidates, where other schools might just be blinded by good numbers. This ends up screwing those high-number, low soft kids, because after admission your (arbitrary) 1L grades and softs mean everything. My main takeaway after OCI is that spending time making yourself a better-rounded candidate outside of numbers (for school, for jobs, for life) is never wasted. So yeah, HYS ----> CCN + scholly + serious credentials beyond college clubs + good interview skills and savvy.

I would say anything below HYS is not worth the money if you are a typical K-JD. [End rant, sorry if that makes no sense]

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Aberzombie1892
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Re: Just read Don't Go to Law School (Unless)

Postby Aberzombie1892 » Mon Oct 08, 2012 5:45 pm

I agree with the above posters.

Basically, if you get into any randomly selected T14 at sticker, you would probably receive a massive scholarship to a lower T14/non-T14. And here, Campos' point is that the massive scholarship at a good school is almost always a better option than paying a lot more for something that is nowhere near guaranteed.

For example, a typical hierarchy would be UVA/Duke>Vanderbilt>Emory/UGA/Georgia State (there is no point in taking this down another level). If someone gets into UVA/Duke at sticker, but also receives a huge scholarship at Vanderbilt, the latter would be the better option. In addition, if someone has to choose between Vanderbilt at sticker and one of Emory/UGA/Georgia State coupled with a huge scholarship, Emory/UGA/Georgia State would be the better option. Similar hierarchies could be applied throughout the US.

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piccolittle
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Re: Just read Don't Go to Law School (Unless)

Postby piccolittle » Mon Oct 08, 2012 5:48 pm

Aberzombie1892 wrote:I agree with the above posters.

Basically, if you get into any randomly selected T14 at sticker, you would probably receive a massive scholarship to a lower T14/non-T14. And here, Campos' point is that the massive scholarship at a good school is almost always a better option than paying a lot more for something that is nowhere near guaranteed.

For example, a typical hierarchy would be UVA/Duke>Vanderbilt>Emory/UGA/Georgia State (there is no point in taking this down another level). If someone gets into UVA/Duke at sticker, but also receives a huge scholarship at Vanderbilt, the latter would be the better option. In addition, if someone has to choose between Vanderbilt at sticker and one of Emory/UGA/Georgia State coupled with a huge scholarship, Emory/UGA/Georgia State would be the better option. Similar hierarchies could be applied throughout the US.

One could also argue that with some of those options, not going to law school at all might be a better choice, given the probability of actually practicing law after graduation, and depending on one's goals...

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smaug_
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Re: Just read Don't Go to Law School (Unless)

Postby smaug_ » Mon Oct 08, 2012 5:59 pm

Aberzombie1892 wrote:Basically, if you get into any randomly selected T14 at sticker, you would probably receive a massive scholarship to a lower T14/non-T14. And here, Campos' point is that the massive scholarship at a good school is almost always a better option than paying a lot more for something that is nowhere near guaranteed.


Although I agree with the general sentiment here, this part of TLS CW sticks in my craw. For splitters, this isn't true at all. Due to scholarships and need-based aid, the T14 option isn't necessarily much more expensive than the T1 option. If you drop down another tier, I think you're more likely to have a full-tution scholarship as an option. I question if a full-tution scholarship at a T2 is better than a discounted T14, though.

For candidates with stronger numbers, I'm sure your point is valid.

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bk1
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Re: Just read Don't Go to Law School (Unless)

Postby bk1 » Mon Oct 08, 2012 6:02 pm

vanwinkle wrote:
msquaredb wrote:It made me feel that way because the odds are against you even at CCN as far as paying back debt in a timely manner and living free of that worry.

I think I'd agree with that. In order to pay back your debt in a "timely manner" you'd need to 1) find a $160K job and 2) hold it for at least 4-5 years. Even people who manage to do it these days are worried until they get it done.


(ignoring need aid) This argument counsels against taking HYS at sticker as well.

collegebum1989
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Re: Just read Don't Go to Law School (Unless)

Postby collegebum1989 » Mon Oct 08, 2012 6:16 pm

What would be the consensus for someone with a specialized background (ex engineering) targeting the IP market?

T14 or lower ranked school with money if the the goal is big-law after?

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vanwinkle
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Re: Just read Don't Go to Law School (Unless)

Postby vanwinkle » Mon Oct 08, 2012 6:31 pm

bk1 wrote:
vanwinkle wrote:
msquaredb wrote:It made me feel that way because the odds are against you even at CCN as far as paying back debt in a timely manner and living free of that worry.

I think I'd agree with that. In order to pay back your debt in a "timely manner" you'd need to 1) find a $160K job and 2) hold it for at least 4-5 years. Even people who manage to do it these days are worried until they get it done.

(ignoring need aid) This argument counsels against taking HYS at sticker as well.

Yes... yes, it does.

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moonman157
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Re: Just read Don't Go to Law School (Unless)

Postby moonman157 » Mon Oct 08, 2012 6:53 pm

This thread, like many on this site, depresses me, but I still feel much better for having read it. Now I just need to get over my dream of attending CCN and try to fall in love with a lower T-14

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cahwc12
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Re: Just read Don't Go to Law School (Unless)

Postby cahwc12 » Mon Oct 08, 2012 7:16 pm

Yeah I read this book the day before I took the LSAT in lieu of taking a final PT. Talk about a de-stresser!

Probably the best advice in that book went something like this:

"They aren't giving you scholarships--you're negotiating how much you will pay them to go to school. If the deal isn't good enough, be prepared to walk away."

Honestly anyone who hasn't read the book should pick it up. It's only ~90 pages but is a gold-mine of useful advice for law school hopefuls.

msquaredb
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Re: Just read Don't Go to Law School (Unless)

Postby msquaredb » Mon Oct 08, 2012 8:19 pm

cahwc12 wrote:Yeah I read this book the day before I took the LSAT in lieu of taking a final PT. Talk about a de-stresser!

Probably the best advice in that book went something like this:

"They aren't giving you scholarships--you're negotiating how much you will pay them to go to school. If the deal isn't good enough, be prepared to walk away."

Honestly anyone who hasn't read the book should pick it up. It's only ~90 pages but is a gold-mine of useful advice for law school hopefuls.


I didn't take anything "good" from it at all really. I think the best part of the book was the last line in which he wrote "Don't catch a falling knife".

I saw a guy up there post about IP, and this is what I was interested in. I am a Biochem major with a 3.95 and a pub. I thought that experience or knowledge would give me a leg up in a that employment sector. The book doesn't reference IP specifically, but I know you practice IP in a big firm so I extrapolated the books general arguments to IP.

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laxbrah420
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Re: Just read Don't Go to Law School (Unless)

Postby laxbrah420 » Mon Oct 08, 2012 8:26 pm

Does it address the situation of parental aid and pleasure derived from college parties?

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IAFG
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Re: Just read Don't Go to Law School (Unless)

Postby IAFG » Mon Oct 08, 2012 8:30 pm

hibiki wrote:
Aberzombie1892 wrote:Basically, if you get into any randomly selected T14 at sticker, you would probably receive a massive scholarship to a lower T14/non-T14. And here, Campos' point is that the massive scholarship at a good school is almost always a better option than paying a lot more for something that is nowhere near guaranteed.


Although I agree with the general sentiment here, this part of TLS CW sticks in my craw. For splitters, this isn't true at all. Due to scholarships and need-based aid, the T14 option isn't necessarily much more expensive than the T1 option. If you drop down another tier, I think you're more likely to have a full-tution scholarship as an option. I question if a full-tution scholarship at a T2 is better than a discounted T14, though.

For candidates with stronger numbers, I'm sure your point is valid.

Supposedly things have loosened up, scholly-wise, but I applied pretty broadly and my best money offer was a T14 with a 3.48/173, so the assumption that everyone with a top-tier admission could go somewhere else with money isn't a universal truth.

I also still don't agree that it would be better to have a fairly slim chance of a six figure job but no debt than a fairly good chance with a lot of debt. Or at least, I think reasonable minds could differ.

msquaredb
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Re: Just read Don't Go to Law School (Unless)

Postby msquaredb » Mon Oct 08, 2012 8:30 pm

laxbrah420 wrote:Does it address the situation of parental aid and pleasure derived from college parties?


Yes. No.

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BruceWayne
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Re: Just read Don't Go to Law School (Unless)

Postby BruceWayne » Mon Oct 08, 2012 8:54 pm

IAFG wrote:I also still don't agree that it would be better to have a fairly slim chance of a six figure job but no debt than a fairly good chance with a lot of debt. Or at least, I think reasonable minds could differ.


The problem is that the current reality is that only HYS and CCNPenn (for NYC jobs) provide a "fairly good chance". And the thing about the CCNPenn option is that the lot of debt neutralizes the outcome for those who attain the NYC firm jobs (and when considering the low job security at these firms in the current climate things get even bleaker).

Because of the current state of legal hiring going to a strong regional for free or close to it is becoming the better option. If you do very well you will land the biglaw job (oftentimes in a lower COL secondary market) with no debt--and amazing situation. If you strike out of biglaw like most of the class you won't have any debt to worry about and will basically be back at square one. Now this may sound like a worse idea than a top 14 at sticker to many of the uniformed. But what the uniformed don't realize is that once you strike out at firms at a top 14--you are essentially the same as a non top of the class regional student for purposes of hiring. In other words, you're just like your bottom 75 percenters at the regional school--except you're loaded with 240K in non-dischargeable debt. When you understand this latte reality you really understand how the top 14 has lost a LOT of it's significance/appeal ITE.

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bk1
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Re: Just read Don't Go to Law School (Unless)

Postby bk1 » Mon Oct 08, 2012 9:02 pm

BruceWayne wrote:The problem is that the current reality is that only HYS and CCNPenn (for NYC jobs) provide a "fairly good chance". And the thing about the CCNPenn option is that the lot of debt neutralizes the outcome for those who attain the NYC firm jobs (and when considering the low job security at these firms in the current climate things get even bleaker).


Why does the debt neutralize the outcome for CCNP but not HYS? We also come full circle to disagreement about what is a "fairly good chance." And where do you get that job security in biglaw is low?

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EvilClinton
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Re: Just read Don't Go to Law School (Unless)

Postby EvilClinton » Mon Oct 08, 2012 9:03 pm

msquaredb wrote:And it made me feel like nowhere is worth the money besides HYS.

How accurate is this book?

Very Accurate

collegebum1989
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Re: Just read Don't Go to Law School (Unless)

Postby collegebum1989 » Mon Oct 08, 2012 10:59 pm

BruceWayne wrote:
IAFG wrote:I also still don't agree that it would be better to have a fairly slim chance of a six figure job but no debt than a fairly good chance with a lot of debt. Or at least, I think reasonable minds could differ.


The problem is that the current reality is that only HYS and CCNPenn (for NYC jobs) provide a "fairly good chance". And the thing about the CCNPenn option is that the lot of debt neutralizes the outcome for those who attain the NYC firm jobs (and when considering the low job security at these firms in the current climate things get even bleaker).

Because of the current state of legal hiring going to a strong regional for free or close to it is becoming the better option. If you do very well you will land the biglaw job (oftentimes in a lower COL secondary market) with no debt--and amazing situation. If you strike out of biglaw like most of the class you won't have any debt to worry about and will basically be back at square one. Now this may sound like a worse idea than a top 14 at sticker to many of the uniformed. But what the uniformed don't realize is that once you strike out at firms at a top 14--you are essentially the same as a non top of the class regional student for purposes of hiring. In other words, you're just like your bottom 75 percenters at the regional school--except you're loaded with 240K in non-dischargeable debt. When you understand this latte reality you really understand how the top 14 has lost a LOT of it's significance/appeal ITE.


Awesome stuff, this never really hit me until you stated it right now. Most 0Ls (like myself) think only about the prospects of first job after law school and ASSUME that everything will be good afterwards not realizing the high turnover rate at biglaw firms or thinking about exit options.

But my question for you is, that even if you strike out a biglaw firm (either not making partner or getting dinged) you still have developed a professional network and valuable skills during your tenure at the firm. I imagine this (combined with your t14 pedigree) would cushion the unemployment process since you'd be applying for jobs against people with less prestigious credentials or experience (regional school students). Therefore, I'm not sure how these teo students would be "essentially the same".

However, you do bring up a good point about thinking about exit options from biglaw if you are considering taking on a lot of debt to go to a t14.

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Tiago Splitter
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Re: Just read Don't Go to Law School (Unless)

Postby Tiago Splitter » Mon Oct 08, 2012 11:02 pm

BruceWayne wrote:Because of the current state of legal hiring going to a strong regional for free or close to it is becoming the better option. If you do very well you will land the biglaw job (oftentimes in a lower COL secondary market) with no debt--and amazing situation. If you strike out of biglaw like most of the class you won't have any debt to worry about and will basically be back at square one.


Part of the problem with this logic is that someone who would be taking out COL loans at a T-14 will almost always be doing the same at anywhere else. A full ride can still mean 60K in debt at graduation.

I know of a couple of splitters who only managed to get into Columbia and WUSTL. Someone with those options and a desire for BigLaw either needs to chance it at Columbia or not go. WUSTL and everything below it just aren't options. Now if that same guy would love small firm work in Kansas City going to WUSTL isn't so bad, but with a 100K scholly he's still going to graduate with around 100K debt.




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