ATL hires hopeless unemployed 2012 law graduate as blogger

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LeBronBBall
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Re: ATL hires hopeless unemployed 2012 law graduate as blogger

Postby LeBronBBall » Fri Oct 05, 2012 7:03 pm

bk1 wrote:My problem with these threads that point out that something like "most people out of law school, even successful ones, are miserable" is that it acts as if there is a realistic alternative. Working fucking sucks. Deal with it. Would you rather be a barista/bartender/salesclerk/whatever? Fine go do that. But in general you are not going to be happy working. Is biglaw an order of magnitude worse? Maybe, but it's all relative. My general suggestion: stop trying to find happiness/fulfillment in a job.


After reading through many threads on this site, I made the decision not to go to law school last year, and I am glad I made that choice. I graduated from an Ivy undergrad, with degree in finance and economics, but due to my shitty GPA and lack of solid work experience, I graduated unemployed. (I stayed unemployed for like a year after graduation)

At that time, I basically thought that my 'default' option was to go to law school, just like most of my friends from college who missed boat on a high paying finance job. I quickly found out that despite having a finance/econ degree from a top business school (Penn Wharton), most employers outside of finance/consulting sectors did not give shit about my academic credentials. To make up for my failure, I studied for LSAT and got a score of 172.

I applied to law schools, but due to my GPA (3.2) my best option was a lower T14 on sticker price, or other lower ranked schools with moderate amounts of scholarships. I was on verge of matriculating at the T14 law school, but reading through this site opened my eyes and made me more cautious regarding employment prospects in legal sector, incurring 250k in debt. In addition, this site provided me an insight into the life of working at big firms as attorneys, and I came to the conclusion that even if I was lucky to land a big law firm job, I wouldn't necessarily enjoy the lifestyle or the work I do as a big firm attorney.

Following that decision, I focused 100% on my job search, applied to shit loads of jobs, and networked like m-f'er. In the end, I landed a job as a business analyst at a consulting firm, and I couldn't be happier about how things turned out. I disagree with anyone that says that "working in general sucks". I'll tell you what - being unemployed sucks 100 times more than working, and I can say that from experience. I truly love my job - I only work 45-50 hours a week, get to travel to cool places, I get to do interesting projects for clients, get paid decently well, get superb benefits, the people I work with are really chill, and I have solid prospects of upward mobility within my firm.

I guess the reason why many lawyers are discontent with their jobs (if that is true), may be due to the fact that many people chose this profession since they couldn't figure out what they wanted to do, or since they couldn't get a decent job after college. I completely understand why many people would want to attend law schools, even now. However, I believe more prospective law students need to open their eyes and consider many different career fields - that may have better employment prospects than law. (accounting, computer science, nursing, engineering, etc)

I just wanted to share my insight, as my story is relevant to the question of "why do so many 0L's want to go to law school, despite knowing how terrible legal hiring is at this point?"

Edit: sorry for the long post.

LeBronBBall
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Re: ATL hires hopeless unemployed 2012 law graduate as blogger

Postby LeBronBBall » Fri Oct 05, 2012 7:27 pm

JCougar wrote:And the other thing is, even if some think T14 is a reasonable gamble at sticker, other law schools will never reduce their tuition unless the T14 do the same--as other schools are incentivized to keep it high in order to compete. If there's going to be change, it's got to start with the T14 and work its way down.

This will never happen if people keep voluntarily paying sticker. I'm not singling anyone out here, either. I'm paying about 75% of sticker at a non-T14, so I might also be part of the problem.

Law school tuition, driven by the US News rankings, no-risk government backed loan money, and greedy universities, is part of an academic arms race where competition actually creates inefficiency rather than driving down costs.


While I agree that the cost of legal education is ridiculously over-priced, I think the level of tuition for all studies, across many universities in this country is fucking ridiculous. Even the 2nd tier state school from my home state charges 20k/year on tuition, for college students. This whole thing is just a joke.

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prezidentv8
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Re: ATL hires hopeless unemployed 2012 law graduate as blogger

Postby prezidentv8 » Fri Oct 05, 2012 7:39 pm

LeBronBBall wrote:
bk1 wrote:My problem with these threads that point out that something like "most people out of law school, even successful ones, are miserable" is that it acts as if there is a realistic alternative. Working fucking sucks. Deal with it. Would you rather be a barista/bartender/salesclerk/whatever? Fine go do that. But in general you are not going to be happy working. Is biglaw an order of magnitude worse? Maybe, but it's all relative. My general suggestion: stop trying to find happiness/fulfillment in a job.


After reading through many threads on this site, I made the decision not to go to law school last year, and I am glad I made that choice. I graduated from an Ivy undergrad, with degree in finance and economics, but due to my shitty GPA and lack of solid work experience, I graduated unemployed. (I stayed unemployed for like a year after graduation)

At that time, I basically thought that my 'default' option was to go to law school, just like most of my friends from college who missed boat on a high paying finance job. I quickly found out that despite having a finance/econ degree from a top business school (Penn Wharton), most employers outside of finance/consulting sectors did not give shit about my academic credentials. To make up for my failure, I studied for LSAT and got a score of 172.

I applied to law schools, but due to my GPA (3.2) my best option was a lower T14 on sticker price, or other lower ranked schools with moderate amounts of scholarships. I was on verge of matriculating at the T14 law school, but reading through this site opened my eyes and made me more cautious regarding employment prospects in legal sector, incurring 250k in debt. In addition, this site provided me an insight into the life of working at big firms as attorneys, and I came to the conclusion that even if I was lucky to land a big law firm job, I wouldn't necessarily enjoy the lifestyle or the work I do as a big firm attorney.

Following that decision, I focused 100% on my job search, applied to shit loads of jobs, and networked like m-f'er. In the end, I landed a job as a business analyst at a consulting firm, and I couldn't be happier about how things turned out. I disagree with anyone that says that "working in general sucks". I'll tell you what - being unemployed sucks 100 times more than working, and I can say that from experience. I truly love my job - I only work 45-50 hours a week, get to travel to cool places, I get to do interesting projects for clients, get paid decently well, get superb benefits, the people I work with are really chill, and I have solid prospects of upward mobility within my firm.

I guess the reason why many lawyers are discontent with their jobs (if that is true), may be due to the fact that many people chose this profession since they couldn't figure out what they wanted to do, or since they couldn't get a decent job after college. I completely understand why many people would want to attend law schools, even now. However, I believe more prospective law students need to open their eyes and consider many different career fields - that may have better employment prospects than law. (accounting, computer science, nursing, engineering, etc)

I just wanted to share my insight, as my story is relevant to the question of "why do so many 0L's want to go to law school, despite knowing how terrible legal hiring is at this point?"

Edit: sorry for the long post.



LeBronBBall wrote:
JCougar wrote:And the other thing is, even if some think T14 is a reasonable gamble at sticker, other law schools will never reduce their tuition unless the T14 do the same--as other schools are incentivized to keep it high in order to compete. If there's going to be change, it's got to start with the T14 and work its way down.

This will never happen if people keep voluntarily paying sticker. I'm not singling anyone out here, either. I'm paying about 75% of sticker at a non-T14, so I might also be part of the problem.

Law school tuition, driven by the US News rankings, no-risk government backed loan money, and greedy universities, is part of an academic arms race where competition actually creates inefficiency rather than driving down costs.


While I agree that the cost of legal education is ridiculously over-priced, I think the level of tuition for all studies, across many universities in this country is fucking ridiculous. Even the 2nd tier state school from my home state charges 20k/year on tuition, for college students. This whole thing is just a joke.



Two Points:

1. QFAwesome post, bro. Key point #1 has been underlined.
2. Can I has jerb too?

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sunynp
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Re: ATL hires hopeless unemployed 2012 law graduate as blogger

Postby sunynp » Fri Oct 05, 2012 8:07 pm

bk1 wrote:
sunynp wrote:Please explain to me how it is extremely different if they both end up unemployed at graduation?


Uhh, I wasn't saying that if they both end up unemployed that they would be different. I was responding to what you said (pertinent part enlarged):

sunynp wrote:How is the argument about why my cousin shouldn't go to Dayton any different with other law schools at sticker?


We are talking about going, which is a pre-law school decision. You're basically claiming that because both have a chance of screwing you that they are the same thing and completely ignoring the fact that how large or small the chance is makes a very large difference. As I said above, you are arguing that the only amount of risk of debtpwnage acceptable is 0. I can understand that, but that doesn't mean that Dayton/T14 are the same thing (though if you are arguing that the only acceptable amount of risk is 0 then the same argument cuts against both of them at sticker).

I think we can respectfully disagree about whether the acceptable amount is 0 or nonzero.


Ah sorry. I changed the conversation without bothering to tell you. Apologies.

The T14 is obv. much much much better than Dayton in chances of getting a job that will allow you to repay your loans(like lightyears better) But the end result for a T14 grad who doesn't get a job seems to be identical to the end result for a Dayton grad who doesn't get a job. The Dayton grad is much more likely to be unemployed and basically has no shot at biglaw anywhere. But the T14 grad who is jobless at 9 months won't necessarily have a better outcome (than the unemployed Dayton grad) just because they have a T14 degree. This conclusion was a bit surprising to me.

Somewhere in there I lost my main point. My main point had to do with looking hard for jobs no matter where a person lives, even if the options are limited (like in rural Ohio) My main point was that informing people of the terrible employment rates and the cost of attendance should be enough without having to find them another job too. Jobs are limited everywhere. I truly understand that.

Going to law school simply because you can't find any other career is a mistake. I know that the T14 gives you exponentially better odds at a job to repay your debt. But if the T14 grad doesn't get one of those jobs they may not end up better off than if they had graduated from a school like Dayton (which should arguably be shut down.) The down side is pretty far down even from a T14.

09042014
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Re: ATL hires hopeless unemployed 2012 law graduate as blogger

Postby 09042014 » Fri Oct 05, 2012 8:16 pm

LeBronBBall wrote:
JCougar wrote:And the other thing is, even if some think T14 is a reasonable gamble at sticker, other law schools will never reduce their tuition unless the T14 do the same--as other schools are incentivized to keep it high in order to compete. If there's going to be change, it's got to start with the T14 and work its way down.

This will never happen if people keep voluntarily paying sticker. I'm not singling anyone out here, either. I'm paying about 75% of sticker at a non-T14, so I might also be part of the problem.

Law school tuition, driven by the US News rankings, no-risk government backed loan money, and greedy universities, is part of an academic arms race where competition actually creates inefficiency rather than driving down costs.


While I agree that the cost of legal education is ridiculously over-priced, I think the level of tuition for all studies, across many universities in this country is fucking ridiculous. Even the 2nd tier state school from my home state charges 20k/year on tuition, for college students. This whole thing is just a joke.


The worst part is that law requires college and law school. It shouldn't take 7 years to train a lawyer. Law school should be two years, and and only require 60 hours of gen eds.

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bk1
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Re: ATL hires hopeless unemployed 2012 law graduate as blogger

Postby bk1 » Fri Oct 05, 2012 9:16 pm

sunynp wrote:Going to law school simply because you can't find any other career is a mistake. I know that the T14 gives you exponentially better odds at a job to repay your debt. But if the T14 grad doesn't get one of those jobs they may not end up better off than if they had graduated from a school like Dayton (which should arguably be shut down.) The down side is pretty far down even from a T14.


I agree that jobless T14 grad is about as screwed as a jobless Dayton grad. I generally agree that one shouldn't go to law school because they can't find any other career, but I think that can be rephrased. Instead look at it like this: someone arguably should go to law school if going to law school would improve their marketability in the job market (i.e. the career outcomes, debt included, post law school are better than the career outcomes pre law school). I say arguably because this is assuming the person is okay with being or even wants to be a lawyer. If someone can't find a job (or can only find shitty jobs) prior to law school and has a T14 acceptance, it is quite likely that on average the T14 degree will give them a better chance at "better" jobs.

michlaw
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Re: ATL hires hopeless unemployed 2012 law graduate as blogger

Postby michlaw » Fri Oct 05, 2012 11:17 pm

NYC Private School Riverdale Country School To Cost $40,050 A Year
Last year Alex Leo calculated that sending a child to school in New York could very well cost parents $1,000,000 from grade school to law school.



One can yell all they want about the costs and the odds. However, there are a significant number of people who will pay a million bucks for less than a 30% chance that their kids will ever get into a t14 school. You worry about the 60k for law school while they gladly fork over 45k for 1st grade. In the long run a JD from a top school will be well worth the investment. That's why the elite have been and still are pursuing it with all their resources. You only live one life. Also to consider is that one of the other benefits of the top schools even at sticker are stellar loan repayment options for those who either choose or get stuck with lower paying jobs. Discount from sticker comes after graduation.

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FlanAl
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Re: ATL hires hopeless unemployed 2012 law graduate as blogger

Postby FlanAl » Fri Oct 05, 2012 11:33 pm

LeBronBBall wrote:
bk1 wrote:My problem with these threads that point out that something like "most people out of law school, even successful ones, are miserable" is that it acts as if there is a realistic alternative. Working fucking sucks. Deal with it. Would you rather be a barista/bartender/salesclerk/whatever? Fine go do that. But in general you are not going to be happy working. Is biglaw an order of magnitude worse? Maybe, but it's all relative. My general suggestion: stop trying to find happiness/fulfillment in a job.


After reading through many threads on this site, I made the decision not to go to law school last year, and I am glad I made that choice. I graduated from an Ivy undergrad, with degree in finance and economics, but due to my shitty GPA and lack of solid work experience, I graduated unemployed. (I stayed unemployed for like a year after graduation)

At that time, I basically thought that my 'default' option was to go to law school, just like most of my friends from college who missed boat on a high paying finance job. I quickly found out that despite having a finance/econ degree from a top business school (Penn Wharton), most employers outside of finance/consulting sectors did not give shit about my academic credentials. To make up for my failure, I studied for LSAT and got a score of 172.

I applied to law schools, but due to my GPA (3.2) my best option was a lower T14 on sticker price, or other lower ranked schools with moderate amounts of scholarships. I was on verge of matriculating at the T14 law school, but reading through this site opened my eyes and made me more cautious regarding employment prospects in legal sector, incurring 250k in debt. In addition, this site provided me an insight into the life of working at big firms as attorneys, and I came to the conclusion that even if I was lucky to land a big law firm job, I wouldn't necessarily enjoy the lifestyle or the work I do as a big firm attorney.

Following that decision, I focused 100% on my job search, applied to shit loads of jobs, and networked like m-f'er. In the end, I landed a job as a business analyst at a consulting firm, and I couldn't be happier about how things turned out. I disagree with anyone that says that "working in general sucks". I'll tell you what - being unemployed sucks 100 times more than working, and I can say that from experience. I truly love my job - I only work 45-50 hours a week, get to travel to cool places, I get to do interesting projects for clients, get paid decently well, get superb benefits, the people I work with are really chill, and I have solid prospects of upward mobility within my firm.

I guess the reason why many lawyers are discontent with their jobs (if that is true), may be due to the fact that many people chose this profession since they couldn't figure out what they wanted to do, or since they couldn't get a decent job after college. I completely understand why many people would want to attend law schools, even now. However, I believe more prospective law students need to open their eyes and consider many different career fields - that may have better employment prospects than law. (accounting, computer science, nursing, engineering, etc)

I just wanted to share my insight, as my story is relevant to the question of "why do so many 0L's want to go to law school, despite knowing how terrible legal hiring is at this point?"

Edit: sorry for the long post.


I think that this is really good advice for kids from Ivy econ programs who can get 172's. Outside of that realm (trust me you're in a special realm) it isn't all that applicable.

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sunynp
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Re: ATL hires hopeless unemployed 2012 law graduate as blogger

Postby sunynp » Fri Oct 05, 2012 11:49 pm

FlanAl wrote:
LeBronBBall wrote:
bk1 wrote:My problem with these threads that point out that something like "most people out of law school, even successful ones, are miserable" is that it acts as if there is a realistic alternative. Working fucking sucks. Deal with it. Would you rather be a barista/bartender/salesclerk/whatever? Fine go do that. But in general you are not going to be happy working. Is biglaw an order of magnitude worse? Maybe, but it's all relative. My general suggestion: stop trying to find happiness/fulfillment in a job.


After reading through many threads on this site, I made the decision not to go to law school last year, and I am glad I made that choice. I graduated from an Ivy undergrad, with degree in finance and economics, but due to my shitty GPA and lack of solid work experience, I graduated unemployed. (I stayed unemployed for like a year after graduation)

At that time, I basically thought that my 'default' option was to go to law school, just like most of my friends from college who missed boat on a high paying finance job. I quickly found out that despite having a finance/econ degree from a top business school (Penn Wharton), most employers outside of finance/consulting sectors did not give shit about my academic credentials. To make up for my failure, I studied for LSAT and got a score of 172.

I applied to law schools, but due to my GPA (3.2) my best option was a lower T14 on sticker price, or other lower ranked schools with moderate amounts of scholarships. I was on verge of matriculating at the T14 law school, but reading through this site opened my eyes and made me more cautious regarding employment prospects in legal sector, incurring 250k in debt. In addition, this site provided me an insight into the life of working at big firms as attorneys, and I came to the conclusion that even if I was lucky to land a big law firm job, I wouldn't necessarily enjoy the lifestyle or the work I do as a big firm attorney.

Following that decision, I focused 100% on my job search, applied to shit loads of jobs, and networked like m-f'er. In the end, I landed a job as a business analyst at a consulting firm, and I couldn't be happier about how things turned out. I disagree with anyone that says that "working in general sucks". I'll tell you what - being unemployed sucks 100 times more than working, and I can say that from experience. I truly love my job - I only work 45-50 hours a week, get to travel to cool places, I get to do interesting projects for clients, get paid decently well, get superb benefits, the people I work with are really chill, and I have solid prospects of upward mobility within my firm.

I guess the reason why many lawyers are discontent with their jobs (if that is true), may be due to the fact that many people chose this profession since they couldn't figure out what they wanted to do, or since they couldn't get a decent job after college. I completely understand why many people would want to attend law schools, even now. However, I believe more prospective law students need to open their eyes and consider many different career fields - that may have better employment prospects than law. (accounting, computer science, nursing, engineering, etc)

I just wanted to share my insight, as my story is relevant to the question of "why do so many 0L's want to go to law school, despite knowing how terrible legal hiring is at this point?"

Edit: sorry for the long post.


I think that this is really good advice for kids from Ivy econ programs who can get 172's. Outside of that realm (trust me you're in a special realm) it isn't all that applicable.



1. Disagree his sentiments arenot applicable to other people as well. He was unemployed for a year while looking for work.
2. Other professions are open to applicants - but it might involve returning to undergrad and retraining.
3.He is an example of the smarter people getting out. You see what I mean, the smart money fleeing the law as a profession, is not a cue for others to rush in and take their place. It is a cue for extreme caution.

FWIW a friend with a 178 turned down Harvard (and her rich medical doctors parents would pay for
r it) because she does not see law as a long term career, other than her interest in PI, and she has better access to jobs at PI groups without a JD. She saw the JD as a expensive 3 year ride that wouldn't get her where she wants to be _EVEN WITH NO DEBT AND FROM HARVARD. She also assumes that if the market picks up, she could always go to law school.
Biglaw hours and stress do not interest her at all. She is not the only one who chose to foresake law for another profession even with a top school in hand. Just think what it means to you that the' smart money" is out of law school for the time being.

ps i WROTE THIS after trying some sleeping meds for my insomnia. If it doesnt make sense, please mods, delete it.

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altoid99
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Re: ATL hires hopeless unemployed 2012 law graduate as blogger

Postby altoid99 » Sat Oct 06, 2012 1:42 am

FlanAl wrote:
LeBronBBall wrote:
bk1 wrote:My problem with these threads that point out that something like "most people out of law school, even successful ones, are miserable" is that it acts as if there is a realistic alternative. Working fucking sucks. Deal with it. Would you rather be a barista/bartender/salesclerk/whatever? Fine go do that. But in general you are not going to be happy working. Is biglaw an order of magnitude worse? Maybe, but it's all relative. My general suggestion: stop trying to find happiness/fulfillment in a job.


After reading through many threads on this site, I made the decision not to go to law school last year, and I am glad I made that choice. I graduated from an Ivy undergrad, with degree in finance and economics, but due to my shitty GPA and lack of solid work experience, I graduated unemployed. (I stayed unemployed for like a year after graduation)

At that time, I basically thought that my 'default' option was to go to law school, just like most of my friends from college who missed boat on a high paying finance job. I quickly found out that despite having a finance/econ degree from a top business school (Penn Wharton), most employers outside of finance/consulting sectors did not give shit about my academic credentials. To make up for my failure, I studied for LSAT and got a score of 172.

I applied to law schools, but due to my GPA (3.2) my best option was a lower T14 on sticker price, or other lower ranked schools with moderate amounts of scholarships. I was on verge of matriculating at the T14 law school, but reading through this site opened my eyes and made me more cautious regarding employment prospects in legal sector, incurring 250k in debt. In addition, this site provided me an insight into the life of working at big firms as attorneys, and I came to the conclusion that even if I was lucky to land a big law firm job, I wouldn't necessarily enjoy the lifestyle or the work I do as a big firm attorney.

Following that decision, I focused 100% on my job search, applied to shit loads of jobs, and networked like m-f'er. In the end, I landed a job as a business analyst at a consulting firm, and I couldn't be happier about how things turned out. I disagree with anyone that says that "working in general sucks". I'll tell you what - being unemployed sucks 100 times more than working, and I can say that from experience. I truly love my job - I only work 45-50 hours a week, get to travel to cool places, I get to do interesting projects for clients, get paid decently well, get superb benefits, the people I work with are really chill, and I have solid prospects of upward mobility within my firm.

I guess the reason why many lawyers are discontent with their jobs (if that is true), may be due to the fact that many people chose this profession since they couldn't figure out what they wanted to do, or since they couldn't get a decent job after college. I completely understand why many people would want to attend law schools, even now. However, I believe more prospective law students need to open their eyes and consider many different career fields - that may have better employment prospects than law. (accounting, computer science, nursing, engineering, etc)

I just wanted to share my insight, as my story is relevant to the question of "why do so many 0L's want to go to law school, despite knowing how terrible legal hiring is at this point?"

Edit: sorry for the long post.


I think that this is really good advice for kids from Ivy econ programs who can get 172's. Outside of that realm (trust me you're in a special realm) it isn't all that applicable.


I agree with this. A lot of people end up going to law school simply because they have, say, humanities degrees that are not all that desirable in the job market. I don't think anyone with a Philosophy degree from a state university would have been able to secure the consulting job you did. For those people, the question becomes: do I look for an unsatisfying entry-level job somewhere where there probably won't be much upward mobility or do I risk it and go to law school? It's a big dilemma.

LeBronBBall
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Re: ATL hires hopeless unemployed 2012 law graduate as blogger

Postby LeBronBBall » Sat Oct 06, 2012 3:32 am

altoid99 wrote:
FlanAl wrote:
LeBronBBall wrote:
bk1 wrote:My problem with these threads that point out that something like "most people out of law school, even successful ones, are miserable" is that it acts as if there is a realistic alternative. Working fucking sucks. Deal with it. Would you rather be a barista/bartender/salesclerk/whatever? Fine go do that. But in general you are not going to be happy working. Is biglaw an order of magnitude worse? Maybe, but it's all relative. My general suggestion: stop trying to find happiness/fulfillment in a job.


After reading through many threads on this site, I made the decision not to go to law school last year, and I am glad I made that choice. I graduated from an Ivy undergrad, with degree in finance and economics, but due to my shitty GPA and lack of solid work experience, I graduated unemployed. (I stayed unemployed for like a year after graduation)

At that time, I basically thought that my 'default' option was to go to law school, just like most of my friends from college who missed boat on a high paying finance job. I quickly found out that despite having a finance/econ degree from a top business school (Penn Wharton), most employers outside of finance/consulting sectors did not give shit about my academic credentials. To make up for my failure, I studied for LSAT and got a score of 172.

I applied to law schools, but due to my GPA (3.2) my best option was a lower T14 on sticker price, or other lower ranked schools with moderate amounts of scholarships. I was on verge of matriculating at the T14 law school, but reading through this site opened my eyes and made me more cautious regarding employment prospects in legal sector, incurring 250k in debt. In addition, this site provided me an insight into the life of working at big firms as attorneys, and I came to the conclusion that even if I was lucky to land a big law firm job, I wouldn't necessarily enjoy the lifestyle or the work I do as a big firm attorney.

Following that decision, I focused 100% on my job search, applied to shit loads of jobs, and networked like m-f'er. In the end, I landed a job as a business analyst at a consulting firm, and I couldn't be happier about how things turned out. I disagree with anyone that says that "working in general sucks". I'll tell you what - being unemployed sucks 100 times more than working, and I can say that from experience. I truly love my job - I only work 45-50 hours a week, get to travel to cool places, I get to do interesting projects for clients, get paid decently well, get superb benefits, the people I work with are really chill, and I have solid prospects of upward mobility within my firm.

I guess the reason why many lawyers are discontent with their jobs (if that is true), may be due to the fact that many people chose this profession since they couldn't figure out what they wanted to do, or since they couldn't get a decent job after college. I completely understand why many people would want to attend law schools, even now. However, I believe more prospective law students need to open their eyes and consider many different career fields - that may have better employment prospects than law. (accounting, computer science, nursing, engineering, etc)

I just wanted to share my insight, as my story is relevant to the question of "why do so many 0L's want to go to law school, despite knowing how terrible legal hiring is at this point?"

Edit: sorry for the long post.


I think that this is really good advice for kids from Ivy econ programs who can get 172's. Outside of that realm (trust me you're in a special realm) it isn't all that applicable.


I agree with this. A lot of people end up going to law school simply because they have, say, humanities degrees that are not all that desirable in the job market. I don't think anyone with a Philosophy degree from a state university would have been able to secure the consulting job you did. For those people, the question becomes: do I look for an unsatisfying entry-level job somewhere where there probably won't be much upward mobility or do I risk it and go to law school? It's a big dilemma.



I feel confident that the reason I landed my job was not due to having that fancy "Wharton" name on my resume, but it was the end result of me applying to a shit load of jobs for 9 months, attending every networking event of substance and talking to everyone, reaching out to alumni, cold calling firms and asking for open positions, and cold calling/ emailing alumni at X,Y,Z corporations asking to grab a coffee and get some 'advice'. I was able to secure some interviews this way (while getting hundreds of rejections and silences from tons of employers), and aced any interview I got. (I really worked on my interviewing skills, starting from case study interview prep, finance interview prep, behavioral, 'fit' questions, etc) In the end - I ended up receiving only two job offers.

I probably put more effort into my job search than anything I've done in the past, including studying for SAT, studying for final exams in any course I've taken in college, studying for LSAT, you name it. Getting a decent corporate job (I wouldn't settle for a dead end job such as sales) proved to be a brutal, BRUTAL challenge. I really can't blame anyone for wanting to go to law school, knowing first-hand how hard it is to land a decent corporate job especially if you graduated college without a job offer lined up.

I still have many friends from my college who are jobless, or heading back to grad school. The kids from my school who landed "top" jobs - Investment Banking, trading (S&T or top prop shops), or high-end strategy consulting (MBB, Booz or the like) are top 20-30% of class kids who not only aced their classes, but prepped for job interviews and internships since they were like freshmen in college. These are the type of kids who breath and sleep in finance, and would talk about becoming investment bankers 24/7, even when they are socializing at a frat party. That being said, I have nothing but respects for these kids.. they truly are smart, diligent, ambitious, and driven as fuck. The middling students at my school like me who didn't have the smarts to get 3.5+ GPA nor the drive to aggressively pursue internships in finance since my freshmen year - most people like me ended up getting fucked job-wise, and probably didn't get much benefit out of having attended a top college.

Having said all that - I realize that I am lucky to have a job. And, I also realize that not everyone can be as lucky in their job search. However, going to a law school under the presumption that 1) the person in question isn't attending a T-14 school, 2) the person in question is resorting to law school merely because s/he couldn't get a decent job after college and doesn't know what the fuck to do, then I think going to a law school is a terrible idea. There are careers out there with much higher employment potential and lower downward risks than law. Consider learning IT skills and get certificates (in systems such as Oracle or SAP), learn programming languages (Java, C#), and apply to IT jobs. Volunteer to work free as an intern. After getting some experience, you would be able to lateral to a better paying job. Or, consider going back to school in accounting, computer science, statistics, math, nursing, pharmacy, dentistry, info science, or engineering. Whatever you do, the key thing is to try your best to maximize your employment potential while keeping the debt under control.. nothing in life would be worse than being unemployed with sizable debt.

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dingbat
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Re: ATL hires hopeless unemployed 2012 law graduate as blogger

Postby dingbat » Sat Oct 06, 2012 8:15 am

JCougar wrote:No generation anywhere ever has had to deal with this kind of cost of education.

How about every generation before the 20th century? (and probably quite a few decades into it). Education for the masses is a 20th century phenomenon, prior to that, it was a luxury few could afford. Unfortunately, it looks like the U.S. is going back to that situation

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somewhatwayward
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Re: ATL hires hopeless unemployed 2012 law graduate as blogger

Postby somewhatwayward » Sat Oct 06, 2012 10:16 am

Paul Campos wrote:One of the things that prospective applicants should keep in mind is that many people in the legal profession today went to law school when going to a good state law school was basically free, if you lived in one of the many states that had at least one. Such people tend to be a really bad source for advice, as they often literally won't believe you if you try to get them up to speed on the current economics of the profession. Check out these stats for Hastings, which just raised tuition 15% to more than $46,000 per year:

Ten years ago annual in-state tuition at Hastings was $11,409. Twenty years ago it was $3,161. Twenty-five years ago it was $1,222. Here are these figures in inflation-adjusted 2012 dollars: 2004: $25,489; 2002: $14,610; 1992: $5,910; 1987: $2,478.


Bolded is QFTMFT. That's why it is always so annoying when some person comes on here proposing to go to a T3 for sticker, claiming that s/he has talked to a bunch of lawyers who graduated from the T3 who told him/her the school doesn't matter and that they had no problem getting jobs. Without asking, we immediately know these lawyers are probably 50+.

My mom is one of those people who is not aware of the current economics. She went to a T30 law school for 6K (total!) in the mid-eighties and took no debt by paying her way from SA positions after 1L and 2L year and using some savings. She does not believe me when I tell her how terrible it is out there. (Me and my older sibling both go to/went to CLS and have big law so perhaps that makes it harder to believe, but my mom did not understand at all why I was so scared I would get nothing through EIP; she thought I was insane). I show her statistics about her alma mater, how they are only placing <50% in good jobs, and she just says that there is no way that the secondary market it is in is not absorbing 150ish law students a year from her school. She says there are more SA positions in that market than there are students at her school to take them, which I highly doubt, not to mention the T14 students "encroaching" (see LOL thread in the employment forum) on secondary markets. /rant

Sometimes I actually resent her and my dad for the opportunities they had. They both got good jobs out of college and would not have had to go to grad school at all although they chose to. My dad's degree was paid for by his company. Now a BA is like a high school degree was then, and you basically have to get a grad degree unless you are in engineering. The swelling numbers of people going to college have devalued the degree (not that I don't want people to have access to higher education). The spigot of federal loans has sent tuition rocketing. Ugh, what a mess.

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Re: ATL hires hopeless unemployed 2012 law graduate as blogger

Postby FlanAl » Sat Oct 06, 2012 10:35 am

dingbat wrote:
JCougar wrote:No generation anywhere ever has had to deal with this kind of cost of education.

How about every generation before the 20th century? (and probably quite a few decades into it). Education for the masses is a 20th century phenomenon, prior to that, it was a luxury few could afford. Unfortunately, it looks like the U.S. is going back to that situation


we are turning into a corporate feudal state like in that movie network, haha.

@Lebron I was in no way trying to knock your hard work, and I think that a lot of people on this board and looking to go to law school benefit from it. (I know a few at my law school were in your position and I think this advice is really good for them). There are also a whole lot of kids with your numbers but from like a random state university. As far as I can tell most of the types of jobs like you got are not even open to kids from lower tier state schools no matter how well they did, especially if they are only open to the top 30% at your school who hustle.

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Samara
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Re: ATL hires hopeless unemployed 2012 law graduate as blogger

Postby Samara » Sat Oct 06, 2012 10:47 am

JCougar wrote:The problem is the debt: it severely limits your freedom to chose your poison even if you "win," and, if you end up strking out on the law school gamble, it significantly curtails your freedom to buy a house, live a life with a reasonable amount of stress, etc.

You know what else severely limits your freedom to buy a house, etc.? A median income. Quite a lot of Americans can't afford to buy a house and lead stressful lives. Throw on top of that some untimely medical expenses, exacerbated by bare bones health insurance, if you're lucky enough to be able to afford it, finish it off with a bit of unemployment, and you have yourself a situation that is just as horrible. I don't think it's unreasonable to take a reasonable shot at a comfortable lifestyle, even if the downside is total debtpwnage.

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Re: ATL hires hopeless unemployed 2012 law graduate as blogger

Postby thelaststraw05 » Sat Oct 06, 2012 11:42 am

FlanAl wrote:@Lebron I was in no way trying to knock your hard work, and I think that a lot of people on this board and looking to go to law school benefit from it. (I know a few at my law school were in your position and I think this advice is really good for them). There are also a whole lot of kids with your numbers but from like a random state university. As far as I can tell most of the types of jobs like you got are not even open to kids from lower tier state schools no matter how well they did, especially if they are only open to the top 30% at your school who hustle.


I ended up going to law school, but before I went I had a great job making $50,000 a year with substantial possibility of upward mobility.

I graduated from a liberal arts college that just made USNWR top 100 liberal arts colleges. I moved to an area where nobody knew the name of the school. I had an undergrad GPA right around a 3.5, so nothing special.

I hustled. I networked. I used what meager connections I had. I started out as a office manager in the field I wanted to get into. Then I took on any work I could.

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Re: ATL hires hopeless unemployed 2012 law graduate as blogger

Postby Tiago Splitter » Sat Oct 06, 2012 12:06 pm

thelaststraw05 wrote:I hustled. I networked. I used what meager connections I had. I started out as a office manager in the field I wanted to get into. Then I took on any work I could.


Exactly. When it's between this or sinking back into the cocoon called school, most kids make the easy choice.

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Re: ATL hires hopeless unemployed 2012 law graduate as blogger

Postby IAFG » Sat Oct 06, 2012 12:36 pm

JCougar wrote:Close to 50% will not get a job from OCI, and will be scraping around for jobs just like all of the hopeless TTT graduates.


Yes and no. Missing a job at OCI, for a T14er, is not all that grim of an outcome if the T14er has any hustle in him at all. I get sick of people claiming it's a 50/50 shot. It certainly isn't at my T14. It's a lot better than that.

One way I think TLS fails people is not pushing them to hustle more before, during and after OCI. People wait until they struck out to start worrying. I think you should probably just always be worried, and the people I know who were always worried (signed up for extra career fairs, went on all their CBs just in case, mass mailed, reached out to network during their 1L summer, were geographically flexible) all ended up with something for 2L summer that would hire them after.

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Re: ATL hires hopeless unemployed 2012 law graduate as blogger

Postby bk1 » Sat Oct 06, 2012 12:39 pm

IAFG wrote:One way I think TLS fails people is not pushing them to hustle more before, during and after OCI.


I think TLS pushes this (or at least the vets do). It's just that most people don't listen until they start panicking that OCI won't work out or hasn't worked out.

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Re: ATL hires hopeless unemployed 2012 law graduate as blogger

Postby sunynp » Sat Oct 06, 2012 12:42 pm

IAFG wrote:
JCougar wrote:Close to 50% will not get a job from OCI, and will be scraping around for jobs just like all of the hopeless TTT graduates.


Yes and no. Missing a job at OCI, for a T14er, is not all that grim of an outcome if the T14er has any hustle in him at all. I get sick of people claiming it's a 50/50 shot. It certainly isn't at my T14. It's a lot better than that.

One way I think TLS fails people is not pushing them to hustle more before, during and after OCI. People wait until they struck out to start worrying. I think you should probably just always be worried, and the people I know who were always worried (signed up for extra career fairs, went on all their CBs just in case, mass mailed, reached out to network during their 1L summer, were geographically flexible) all ended up with something for 2L summer that would hire them after.

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IAFG
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Re: ATL hires hopeless unemployed 2012 law graduate as blogger

Postby IAFG » Sat Oct 06, 2012 12:49 pm

bk1 wrote:
IAFG wrote:One way I think TLS fails people is not pushing them to hustle more before, during and after OCI.


I think TLS pushes this (or at least the vets do). It's just that most people don't listen until they start panicking that OCI won't work out or hasn't worked out.

I guess when I hear from people late in the game that they aren't really sure how to massmail, I feel like we aren't doing a great job pushing for the right things at the right time. And is there a schedule of career fairs compiled anywhere around here? Really, shouldn't there be?

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Re: ATL hires hopeless unemployed 2012 law graduate as blogger

Postby sunynp » Sat Oct 06, 2012 12:56 pm

Samara wrote:
JCougar wrote:The problem is the debt: it severely limits your freedom to chose your poison even if you "win," and, if you end up strking out on the law school gamble, it significantly curtails your freedom to buy a house, live a life with a reasonable amount of stress, etc.

You know what else severely limits your freedom to buy a house, etc.? A median income. Quite a lot of Americans can't afford to buy a house and lead stressful lives. Throw on top of that some untimely medical expenses, exacerbated by bare bones health insurance, if you're lucky enough to be able to afford it, finish it off with a bit of unemployment, and you have yourself a situation that is just as horrible. I don't think it's unreasonable to take a reasonable shot at a comfortable lifestyle, even if the downside is total debtpwnage.

This is where we will always disagree. I think 25 years of IBR for a degree that doesn't get you a job is much worse than not going and finding something else to do. People always think that they will make it no matter how much they are warned. I agree with giving law school a shot if you have to, but dropping out if you aren't at the top of your class.

I understand that people have their own idea of what a reasonable risk should be. With regard to this forum, I'm on the extreme end of debt aversion. I hope it is beneficial for people to hear this point of view, even if it only makes them think twice.

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Samara
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Re: ATL hires hopeless unemployed 2012 law graduate as blogger

Postby Samara » Sat Oct 06, 2012 1:07 pm

sunynp wrote:
Samara wrote:
JCougar wrote:The problem is the debt: it severely limits your freedom to chose your poison even if you "win," and, if you end up strking out on the law school gamble, it significantly curtails your freedom to buy a house, live a life with a reasonable amount of stress, etc.

You know what else severely limits your freedom to buy a house, etc.? A median income. Quite a lot of Americans can't afford to buy a house and lead stressful lives. Throw on top of that some untimely medical expenses, exacerbated by bare bones health insurance, if you're lucky enough to be able to afford it, finish it off with a bit of unemployment, and you have yourself a situation that is just as horrible. I don't think it's unreasonable to take a reasonable shot at a comfortable lifestyle, even if the downside is total debtpwnage.

This is where we will always disagree. I think 25 years of IBR for a degree that doesn't get you a job is much worse than not going and finding something else to do. I agree with giving law school a shot if you have to, but dropping out if you aren't at the top of your class.

I understand that people have their own idea of what a reasonable risk should be. With regard to this forum, I'm on the extreme end of debt aversion. I hope it is beneficial for people to hear this point of view, even if it only makes them think twice.

That's fair and I'm glad you are here to provide the extreme debt aversion viewpoint. I have reasons to believe that my "odds" of total debtpwnage is somewhere in the neighborhood of 10%-15% for my specific situation and about 33% for a non-ideal outcome. That's a risk I'm willing to take. But yeah, if I finish 1L significantly below median, I will think long and hard about dropping out.

My only beef with your side of the coin is that odds of success are often underestimated, mischaracterized, or conflated between T14s and non-T14s. Nobody is arguing for sticker at Dayton, but I think sticker at a T14, under the right circumstances, is still a reasonable bet.

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Samara
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Re: ATL hires hopeless unemployed 2012 law graduate as blogger

Postby Samara » Sat Oct 06, 2012 1:11 pm

It's probably also worth pointing out that the people who were unable or unwilling to hustle for a job after undergrad are likely to be the people who don't hustle for a job after striking out at OCI. From my limited listening to the grapevine, a school's eventual biglaw placement percentage seems to include quite a lot of people who hustled after striking out at OCI. I feel like people have this perception that if a school places, say, 45% in big law that 43% got biglaw through OCI, when it's probably closer to something like 30%.

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Re: ATL hires hopeless unemployed 2012 law graduate as blogger

Postby bk1 » Sat Oct 06, 2012 1:28 pm

IAFG wrote:I guess when I hear from people late in the game that they aren't really sure how to massmail, I feel like we aren't doing a great job pushing for the right things at the right time. And is there a schedule of career fairs compiled anywhere around here? Really, shouldn't there be?


I agree that it's depressing seeing people who are like "well I started massmailing when OCI started looking grim."

I don't think there is one compiled. There probably should be. But career fairs aren't particularly helpful to people who aren't doing things early since you often have to register in the spring or early summer for them. NU CSO kept us relatively well apprised of them. Not sure how good other schools are at it.




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