171 3.78; ED to Columbia?

(Applications Advice, Letters of Recommendation . . . )

What should I do?

-ED to Columbia
15
34%
-RD to Columbia (if you think I have a >50% chance)
28
64%
-Little/no chance at Columbia anyway, so it doesn't matter
1
2%
 
Total votes: 44

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Legal_Padawan
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171 3.78; ED to Columbia?

Postby Legal_Padawan » Sat Sep 29, 2012 4:28 pm

Long-time lurker first time poster here.

I know there are a bunch of posts like this, but everyone has different numbers, and its a new cycle, so I figured why not?

Long term goal is to practice in DC, but I've gathered that's not something to bank on straight out of school, so I'm OK working biglaw in NYC for a few years, then lateraling. (And yes, I know you can't bank on biglaw in NYC either)

I figure
1) EDing has got to help my chances at least a little. It looks like some here say that it doesn't, based on a very small sample of a few apps, but what is the logical argument for it not helping?
2) With my numbers, I won't get any money at Columbia anyway
3) I'm guessing I would get some scholarships from other places in the T14, but nothing too substantial from schools in about the same tier as Columbia (NYU and Chicago), or schools like Penn and UVA.
4) Besides, I'm going to be in 100K+ debt wherever in the T14 I go, and thus have to do biglaw wherever I go. Post law school, what's the practical difference between being 200K in debt vs 150K in debt? Might as well go to the place with the best prospects for biglaw. (that I can get in to).

Please vote and share your wisdom. Many thanks.

EDIT: Also have an SO who could pay for living expenses while I'm in school.
Last edited by Legal_Padawan on Sat Sep 29, 2012 7:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

transfer2014
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Re: 171 3.78; ED to Columbia?

Postby transfer2014 » Sat Sep 29, 2012 4:37 pm

If you are sure that you want Columbia, I would ED. It looks like you have a small chance at acceptance, but will probably be waitlisted without the ED. The small boost from the ED could be enough. You also have very little chance at getting Harvard so I don't think you are passing up on going to a higher ranked school. That said, you are eliminating your chance to get money from lower ranked T14's.

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Legal_Padawan
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Re: 171 3.78; ED to Columbia?

Postby Legal_Padawan » Sat Sep 29, 2012 4:54 pm

Yeah, I visited and loved it, so I'm pretty sure.
You are right about the money, but do you think I have a chance at substantial scholarships (>100K) anywhere in the T14? Like I said, don't see the practical difference between 150K in debt vs 200K in debt, but I do see a difference between Columbia and everywhere else (though NYU and Chicago are obviously pretty close to it).

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somewhatwayward
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Re: 171 3.78; ED to Columbia?

Postby somewhatwayward » Sat Sep 29, 2012 4:58 pm

I read somewhere that CLS ED does not give a boost. I did not ED anywhere, so I am not sure, but before you do, look into whether you will actually get any benefit from EDing. Otherwise you may as well see what comes your way. I agree your chances aren't too great at this point, but who knows the impact of less and less people applying to law school? CLS might be happy to take that 171 with a respectable GPA attached.

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Legal_Padawan
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Re: 171 3.78; ED to Columbia?

Postby Legal_Padawan » Sat Sep 29, 2012 5:22 pm

I've seen that too. Still looking for the logical explanation of why it doesn't, and substantial evidence beyond a small sample of apps.
Good point about the lower number of people applying. With any luck, their medians will drop a little bit. Fingers crossed.

TheZoid
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Re: 171 3.78; ED to Columbia?

Postby TheZoid » Sat Sep 29, 2012 5:39 pm

I get where you're coming from that you will need biglaw either way, but there is a difference between 150 and 200k. Fifty thousand dollars is a lot of money, and it's money that starts going in the bank/IRA sooner if you're done making payments earlier. You're unlikely to get $ from Columbia and the consensus seems to be there's little to no ED boost so why not apply broadly and see what u get from the rest of the T14. Those are great numbers and I'd see what u get before u dive head first into 250k debt.

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Legal_Padawan
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Re: 171 3.78; ED to Columbia?

Postby Legal_Padawan » Sat Sep 29, 2012 6:06 pm

$50,000 is a lot...(especially when you put the zeroes at the end...) But the extra 50K from Georgetown won't seem so great when I'm doing shitlaw in West Virginia...

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=66974
(Don't mean to pick on Georgetown btw, I would be thrilled to go there)

Columbia is the best school I can get in to, and the only way I'd choose another (non HYS) school over it would be a +100K scholarship. With my numbers I don't see that happening. So even if ED helps only a tiny bit, why not?
(Still waiting for argument/evidence for why ED at Columbia doesn't help).

Thanks for the compliment. I really lucked out on the LSAT. Looks like you've got great numbers too.

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Veyron
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Re: 171 3.78; ED to Columbia?

Postby Veyron » Sat Sep 29, 2012 6:32 pm

200 in debt? Try 250k (and that's assuming they don't raise the tuition while you're there, which they will). Even with biglaw, its just not worth it. RD and take the money elsewhere.

Edit: Sorry, my bad, 288k. --LinkRemoved--

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Tiago Splitter
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Re: 171 3.78; ED to Columbia?

Postby Tiago Splitter » Sat Sep 29, 2012 6:43 pm

Veyron you had it right the first time with the 280K number. --LinkRemoved--

OP you are at or above both medians at a handful of T-14s (GULC, Cornell, Michigan, maybe NYU) and are close at a few others. You have a chance for six figure scholarship offers if you let the cycle play out and negotiate.

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changingofthegarrard
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Re: 171 3.78; ED to Columbia?

Postby changingofthegarrard » Sat Sep 29, 2012 7:07 pm

I have similar numbers (171 3.76). I thought about ED but decided that 280K in debt was too much when Biglaw isn't guaranteed

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Legal_Padawan
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Re: 171 3.78; ED to Columbia?

Postby Legal_Padawan » Sat Sep 29, 2012 7:43 pm

Veyron wrote:200 in debt? Try 250k (and that's assuming they don't raise the tuition while you're there, which they will). Even with biglaw, its just not worth it. RD and take the money elsewhere.

Edit: Sorry, my bad, 288k. --LinkRemoved--


True, although it looks like pretty much every school in the T14 has COA around 250K+. Anybody with numbers like mine is going to have a ton of debt no matter what. The question is whether or not the reduced risk of missing biglaw from Columbia is worth an extra ~75K. I'm risk-averse, so leaning towards "yes" right now. But with a higher difference, I might think differently...

Tiago Splitter wrote:Veyron you had it right the first time with the 280K number. --LinkRemoved--

OP you are at or above both medians at a handful of T-14s (GULC, Cornell, Michigan, maybe NYU) and are close at a few others. You have a chance for six figure scholarship offers if you let the cycle play out and negotiate.


I would probably take somewhere like Penn or NYU with a six figure scholarship, but I didn't think my chances were that good to get one. I was under the impression that you had to be around a school's 75th on GPA and LSAT to get big scholarships.

Good points, both of you. Definitely less sure of my decision now than when I posted this.

Also, I should mention that I've got an SO who would be supporting me throughout law school, so at least living expenses will be covered. (This narrows my choices to schools in or near big cities, since she'd be looking to work for a PR firm).

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Legal_Padawan
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Re: 171 3.78; ED to Columbia?

Postby Legal_Padawan » Mon Dec 03, 2012 6:15 pm

Update:

Actually ended up with a big scholarship offer from a great school, (120K from UVA). Obviously was pretty surprised, must've been because I'm a VA resident with pretty good softs.

Soon as I made sure it didn't have stipulations, I emailed Columbia to switch my app to RD and they obliged. Probably should have taken all of your advice, since my chances at Columbia now are lower than if I had just applied RD in the first place.

I'm surprised people don't update these threads with their results more often. Knowing how things turned out makes them more useful for everyone. I'll try to update again in a few months once I hear back from more places.

bbsg
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Re: 171 3.78; ED to Columbia?

Postby bbsg » Mon Dec 03, 2012 6:21 pm

Thanks for updating!!

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jkpolk
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Re: 171 3.78; ED to Columbia?

Postby jkpolk » Mon Dec 03, 2012 6:24 pm

Legal_Padawan wrote:Update:

Actually ended up with a big scholarship offer from a great school, (120K from UVA). Obviously was pretty surprised, must've been because I'm a VA resident with pretty good softs.

Soon as I made sure it didn't have stipulations, I emailed Columbia to switch my app to RD and they obliged. Probably should have taken all of your advice, since my chances at Columbia now are lower than if I had just applied RD in the first place.

I'm surprised people don't update these threads with their results more often. Knowing how things turned out makes them more useful for everyone. I'll try to update again in a few months once I hear back from more places.

cop dat cash pronto homie

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smaug_
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Re: 171 3.78; ED to Columbia?

Postby smaug_ » Mon Dec 03, 2012 7:01 pm

Legal_Padawan wrote:Update:

Actually ended up with a big scholarship offer from a great school, (120K from UVA). Obviously was pretty surprised, must've been because I'm a VA resident with pretty good softs.

Soon as I made sure it didn't have stipulations, I emailed Columbia to switch my app to RD and they obliged. Probably should have taken all of your advice, since my chances at Columbia now are lower than if I had just applied RD in the first place.

I'm surprised people don't update these threads with their results more often. Knowing how things turned out makes them more useful for everyone. I'll try to update again in a few months once I hear back from more places.


Sounds like you're in a great position. If they force you to commit, obviously take the money. If not, you have great leverage (but it'll be hard to beat that offer).

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Legal_Padawan
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Re: 171 3.78; ED to Columbia?

Postby Legal_Padawan » Mon Dec 03, 2012 7:14 pm

Do you think they actually will force me to commit early? I haven't heard anything like that from them so far.

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somewhatwayward
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Re: 171 3.78; ED to Columbia?

Postby somewhatwayward » Mon Dec 03, 2012 7:15 pm

Congrats on UVa but have you applied to Penn? You could leverage that UVa scholarship at Penn and hopefully get $$$ and go there instead. There's always ire when I say this, but Penn is safer from an employment perspective (given that you are okay with NYC big law and not interested in working in the South). Penn pretty much places as well as NYU, probably because of their reduced class size. UVa is substantially bigger than Penn but not as ridiculously gigantic as NYU.

If you can't play UVa off Penn, then enjoy UVa. You probably won't be forced into big law with that scholarship (although you will still have a decent chunk of debt unless you have cost of living covered).

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smaug_
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Re: 171 3.78; ED to Columbia?

Postby smaug_ » Mon Dec 03, 2012 7:25 pm

Legal_Padawan wrote:Do you think they actually will force me to commit early? I haven't heard anything like that from them so far.


Shouldn't be an issue.

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LexLeon
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Re: 171 3.78; ED to Columbia?

Postby LexLeon » Tue Dec 04, 2012 12:41 am

I think it's more likely than not that you'll get in RD.

I would not ED. Leave your options open.

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cahwc12
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Re: 171 3.78; ED to Columbia?

Postby cahwc12 » Tue Dec 04, 2012 10:42 am

Legal_Padawan wrote:Update:

Actually ended up with a big scholarship offer from a great school, (120K from UVA). Obviously was pretty surprised, must've been because I'm a VA resident with pretty good softs.

Soon as I made sure it didn't have stipulations, I emailed Columbia to switch my app to RD and they obliged. Probably should have taken all of your advice, since my chances at Columbia now are lower than if I had just applied RD in the first place.

I'm surprised people don't update these threads with their results more often. Knowing how things turned out makes them more useful for everyone. I'll try to update again in a few months once I hear back from more places.


If you want to practice in DC, I think you should inform every other T14 that has accepted you of that 120k and see if you can get a competing offer to bump UVA's to 140 or 150k, then go there. (0L advice)

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Legal_Padawan
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Re: 171 3.78; ED to Columbia?

Postby Legal_Padawan » Tue Dec 04, 2012 12:29 pm

somewhatwayward wrote:Congrats on UVa but have you applied to Penn? You could leverage that UVa scholarship at Penn and hopefully get $$$ and go there instead. There's always ire when I say this, but Penn is safer from an employment perspective (given that you are okay with NYC big law and not interested in working in the South). Penn pretty much places as well as NYU, probably because of their reduced class size. UVa is substantially bigger than Penn but not as ridiculously gigantic as NYU.

If you can't play UVa off Penn, then enjoy UVa. You probably won't be forced into big law with that scholarship (although you will still have a decent chunk of debt unless you have cost of living covered).


Actually should have living expenses covered; I've got a SO who will be supporting me. Of course, she'll need to find a good job, which would definitely be harder in Charlottesville than most other t-14s. Which brings us to Penn.

Penn is obviously great, seems like it's the most well-rounded school outside of the t-5. DC is the ultimate goal though, and UVA does seem to do very well there (although it's not clear how much of that is just self-selection). Either way it's still very early, will have to wait for more acceptances, scholarships, and visits before deciding.

Random issue with Penn: Everyone talks about the crime at Chicago, but what about at Penn? I know a guy who went to Temple, and crime was a huge problem there. (On his first night in Philly, he saw a homeless dude knock a girl out and run away with her purse). Anyways, getting a little off topic...

cahwc12 wrote:
Legal_Padawan wrote:Update:

Actually ended up with a big scholarship offer from a great school, (120K from UVA). Obviously was pretty surprised, must've been because I'm a VA resident with pretty good softs.

Soon as I made sure it didn't have stipulations, I emailed Columbia to switch my app to RD and they obliged. Probably should have taken all of your advice, since my chances at Columbia now are lower than if I had just applied RD in the first place.

I'm surprised people don't update these threads with their results more often. Knowing how things turned out makes them more useful for everyone. I'll try to update again in a few months once I hear back from more places.


If you want to practice in DC, I think you should inform every other T14 that has accepted you of that 120k and see if you can get a competing offer to bump UVA's to 140 or 150k, then go there. (0L advice)


Yes, I've been meaning to read that post on here about negotiating scholarships. I suppose it's never too early to start. What do you think the chances are of UVA bumping the offer up? I'm assuming I would need a matching/higher offer from a peer school, or a lower but substantial (~75k) offer from somewhere in the CCN.




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