Why NYU?

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ze2151
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Re: Why NYU?

Postby ze2151 » Thu Sep 13, 2012 8:37 am

just a quick fyi, and i promise i'm not trying to pick a fight here- this thread is being roundly mocked over at insidethelawschoolscam.blogspot.com.

op- please consider carefully what you're doing. 250k at 7 pct interest, with pi aspirations, nearly guarantees ibr. finding a pi job is like finding a four leaf clover. heck, finding a regular job is like finding a four leaf clover.

elie mystal's article yesterday about the optimism of c/o 2016 is one you should read. i don't want to throw cold water on you, but this thread needs it.

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iMisto
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Re: Why NYU?

Postby iMisto » Thu Sep 13, 2012 8:41 am

^ you don't have to say any of that, OR be stressed out. ED, and you're golden - at what seems like your dream school. How many people have that option? Not many.

It seems like you've thought this out pretty well. ie comparing possibilities of half scholly somewhere else, etc. Sounds like you just need some encouragement. :wink:

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francesfarmer
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Re: Why NYU?

Postby francesfarmer » Thu Sep 13, 2012 9:37 am

ze2151 wrote:just a quick fyi, and i promise i'm not trying to pick a fight here- this thread is being roundly mocked over at insidethelawschoolscam.blogspot.com.

op- please consider carefully what you're doing. 250k at 7 pct interest, with pi aspirations, nearly guarantees ibr. finding a pi job is like finding a four leaf clover. heck, finding a regular job is like finding a four leaf clover.

elie mystal's article yesterday about the optimism of c/o 2016 is one you should read. i don't want to throw cold water on you, but this thread needs it.

i have already said several times over the course of this thread that i have thought carefully about what i'm doing, i won't be taking out $250k principal (estimated cost isn't even $250k principal, I don't understand where you are all getting that number), and that i understand its hard to find a PI job. i'm not afraid of IBR. i have supported myself for many years on MUCH less than i'd be making in a shitlaw job with IBR. i'll put off getting married to stay on IBR or LRAP. i'll live with roommates in brooklyn forever, or, GASP, i'll move to fucking New Jersey. i understand law school is not going to be a road paved with gold toward a perfect PI job that pays just enough for me to live comfortably while getting LRAP.

having just read elie mystal's article, i feel the same as i did before i read it. NYU has the best placement out of any school i could hope to go to. as far as a school being affordable, $130k+ interest with half scholarship (which i doubt i would get anyway because i'm a splitter) at a T14 with ok employment stats as opposed to $200k+ interest (since I won't be taking the full COL, and all the other reasons i cited above) with no scholarship at a T6 with good employment stats doesn't sound like a deal to me.

of course, there is another argument to be made that nobody should go to law school at near sticker right now, but that's my choice given my options and i'm not going to cooley or something so i'm done. thanks everyone.

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02889
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Re: Why NYU?

Postby 02889 » Thu Sep 13, 2012 1:03 pm

One quick comment to add - I think it's pretty unhelpful to have these discussions about law school debt and employment without any context at all. It's not like the options for most people are (1) go to law school or (2) take a job as a computer programmer or engineer. If someone is interested in a career in PI, the other options to get there that give him/her the best chances at landing a job are not significantly less expensive, but many of them do have significantly worse job prospects (economy hurts all around, and loads of non-legal PI jobs are found in local government), significantly worse potential starting incomes, and significantly worse programs for paying back debt. For example, an MSW from Michigan costs $55,000 a year, in a 2 year program. An MPP from Harvard Kennedy School is $70,000 a year, in a 2 year program. These are programs for jobs where the starting salaries can be as low $30-40,000 and career highs might only reach $60-70,000. HKS offers a tiny LRAP program, with 5 year eligibility. I didn't see anything like that on Michigan's website.

So, instead of just asking if $200,000 in debt from NYU Law is worth it for a pretty solid shot at BigLaw and $160,000, and an incredible amount of support for getting a PI job that qualifies for a very generous LRAP, the question should also say is that worth it when your other option might be $150,000 in debt from an MPP program with no chance at a salary above $50,000 and pretty terrible prospects for assistance in paying that off.

(Note: I haven't researched MSW and MPP programs nearly as much as law, but my point is just that other grad options aren't always better and can be much worse than law school.)

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indigomachine
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Re: Why NYU?

Postby indigomachine » Thu Sep 13, 2012 1:09 pm

^Just wanted to say I love your domo tar.

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francesfarmer
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Re: Why NYU?

Postby francesfarmer » Thu Sep 13, 2012 1:15 pm

02889 wrote:One quick comment to add - I think it's pretty unhelpful to have these discussions about law school debt and employment without any context at all. It's not like the options for most people are (1) go to law school or (2) take a job as a computer programmer or engineer. If someone is interested in a career in PI, the other options to get there that give him/her the best chances at landing a job are not significantly less expensive, but many of them do have significantly worse job prospects (economy hurts all around, and loads of non-legal PI jobs are found in local government), significantly worse potential starting incomes, and significantly worse programs for paying back debt. For example, an MSW from Michigan costs $55,000 a year, in a 2 year program. An MPP from Harvard Kennedy School is $70,000 a year, in a 2 year program. These are programs for jobs where the starting salaries can be as low $30-40,000 and career highs might only reach $60-70,000. HKS offers a tiny LRAP program, with 5 year eligibility. I didn't see anything like that on Michigan's website.

So, instead of just asking if $200,000 in debt from NYU Law is worth it for a pretty solid shot at BigLaw and $160,000, and an incredible amount of support for getting a PI job that qualifies for a very generous LRAP, the question should also say is that worth it when your other option might be $150,000 in debt from an MPP program with no chance at a salary above $50,000 and pretty terrible prospects for assistance in paying that off.

(Note: I haven't researched MSW and MPP programs nearly as much as law, but my point is just that other grad options aren't always better and can be much worse than law school.)

I really appreciate this input. Master's degrees are basically a liability at this point (like a law degree from TTTT, but with slightly less debt!). I have wanted to be a lawyer forever and working with and for lawyers has only made me want to be a lawyer more. I have a job right now where I make a good wage, but my position ends next July 31.

What I'm not seeing on this thread is any alternative. What are constructive suggestions for me beyond "be extremely afraid and worry every day of your life about the loan burden you're taking on"? Because I promise I already do that. I'm informed. What would you have me do?

taf889
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Re: Why NYU?

Postby taf889 » Thu Sep 13, 2012 3:40 pm

.

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iMisto
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Re: Why NYU?

Postby iMisto » Thu Sep 13, 2012 4:08 pm

02889 makes a great point.

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sunynp
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Re: Why NYU?

Postby sunynp » Thu Sep 13, 2012 5:59 pm

francesfarmer wrote:
02889 wrote:One quick comment to add - I think it's pretty unhelpful to have these discussions about law school debt and employment without any context at all. It's not like the options for most people are (1) go to law school or (2) take a job as a computer programmer or engineer. If someone is interested in a career in PI, the other options to get there that give him/her the best chances at landing a job are not significantly less expensive, but many of them do have significantly worse job prospects (economy hurts all around, and loads of non-legal PI jobs are found in local government), significantly worse potential starting incomes, and significantly worse programs for paying back debt. For example, an MSW from Michigan costs $55,000 a year, in a 2 year program. An MPP from Harvard Kennedy School is $70,000 a year, in a 2 year program. These are programs for jobs where the starting salaries can be as low $30-40,000 and career highs might only reach $60-70,000. HKS offers a tiny LRAP program, with 5 year eligibility. I didn't see anything like that on Michigan's website.

So, instead of just asking if $200,000 in debt from NYU Law is worth it for a pretty solid shot at BigLaw and $160,000, and an incredible amount of support for getting a PI job that qualifies for a very generous LRAP, the question should also say is that worth it when your other option might be $150,000 in debt from an MPP program with no chance at a salary above $50,000 and pretty terrible prospects for assistance in paying that off.

(Note: I haven't researched MSW and MPP programs nearly as much as law, but my point is just that other grad options aren't always better and can be much worse than law school.)

I really appreciate this input. Master's degrees are basically a liability at this point (like a law degree from TTTT, but with slightly less debt!). I have wanted to be a lawyer forever and working with and for lawyers has only made me want to be a lawyer more. I have a job right now where I make a good wage, but my position ends next July 31.

What I'm not seeing on this thread is any alternative. What are constructive suggestions for me beyond "be extremely afraid and worry every day of your life about the loan burden you're taking on"? Because I promise I already do that. I'm informed. What would you have me do?



Well, I suggested applying broadly, see where you get in and what money you get and if you can negotiate.

I am not recommending that you go to differeent grad school at all, I don't know what other jobs are open to you, but I would pursue getting a job as if you aren't necessarily going to law school. I would work very hard to find my alternatives. I would work for a couple of years and reevaluate then. More education is not necessarily the answer here.

The main point of my posts besides urging you to apply broadly and fight for every dollar of scholarship money, is to make sure you truly understand how brutal getting a job really can be. Read a bunch of the OCI threads here. Top grades from a top
school will help you, but you cant count on top grades. Even top grades are not enough, it is a necessary but not sufficient thing. You know that you have a 26 or so percent of being unemployed or underemployed from NYU. I don't know if there are any stats on the number of people in PI from NYU who got jobs and the number who didn't.

But you, and every other 0L on this forum needs to seriously consider what they will do if you don't get or keep a job for the time it will take you to repay your loans. It seems very difficult to convince people how tough the market is right now. There are posts here by people who struck out at OCI, people who had good shots at getting a job. Some of them have posted that they didn't realize how bad it is.

OLs need to carefully examine the employment stats from their school.

edit to add: I never said that you should worry everyday. Just make an informed decision. You said you were informed but when you said that if you didn't get PI from NYU you would just do biglaw for a few years, I started to wonder how informed you really are. If you do go, then do your best and see what happens. Stressing about debt and how you have to get a job when you are in school will probably just make it worse. It took me a long time to learn to deal with law school stress without burning myself out. I don't suggest or want anyone to be incredibly afraid or worry every day of their life.

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francesfarmer
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Re: Why NYU?

Postby francesfarmer » Thu Sep 13, 2012 8:48 pm

By saying I will do big law for a few years if necessary I don't mean to imply that biglaw is easy to get into. I personally know attorneys who have been out of work for several years after biglaw who are deeply in debt from paying sticker at T30. I used to work with an NYU grad working in a two person firm making under 70k a year. I have been working in the legal industry for three years (and longer in college). I have been stalking TLS since 2009. I have weighed the pros and cons and I plan to fight for money as much as I can, but the fact remains that NYU has the best employment stats of any school I could get into, and EDing increases my chances of admission by a fair amount and doesnt really decrease the amout of aid I expect because I am a splitter. I've read the charts released by the ABA (I read them when they were released months ago. I saved them to my computer and everything!) and I've read above the law and inside the law school scam and OCI forums on this website and I've spoken to people in law school and just out of law school and old ass rich ass attorneys and people on the Internet who may or may not know what they are talking about. If you think this is a decision I'm making on the fly you are wrong and I'm really tired of justifying myself.

Real Madrid
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Re: Why NYU?

Postby Real Madrid » Thu Sep 13, 2012 9:44 pm

francesfarmer wrote:
Swimp wrote:My understanding of the "conventional wisdom" is that a Why X essay would be superfluous anywhere you're applying ED or at any school that doesn't offer ED (e.g., Harvard admissions knows why you want to come to Harvard). I've never heard someone say this about NYU.

I read it here on some big "Why X" thread that sending a "Why X" to a T6 is pointless because obviously you want to go to any T6.


T6 isn't a real thing, it's just something made up by TLSers to explain Vault hiring patterns in NYC. That alone is not a legit enough reason to not write a "Why?" essay to NYU but to write one to, for instance, Penn.




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