IBanking WE --> Scholarships?

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dingbat
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Re: IBanking WE --> Scholarships?

Postby dingbat » Tue Sep 11, 2012 6:46 pm

michlaw wrote:Ha ha. You could be right. However after OCI here I get the feeling that 80% of the class would drop out in a heartbeat to take a top analyst job. I have a sibling who did T3 law and top street firm and thought the street was more impressive. A sampling of one I know.

Wait, did your sibling go to a tier 3 law school or do you mean HYS?
Either way, I've worked with easily half the top IBs and just as many top law firms and generally speaking I found that analysts aren't particularly intelligent/capable/impressive.

As for calling into question the validity of an IB job, well, I wasn't, but now that I think about it, I have no problem calling into question the validity of some IB jobs. I certainly question the capability of half the analysts (but then, easily half never become associates). And when I say a monkey could do the job, half the time that's not much of an exaggeration (admittedly, a real monkey would be struggling)

michlaw
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Re: IBanking WE --> Scholarships?

Postby michlaw » Tue Sep 11, 2012 7:25 pm

What's a tier three law school? You have worked at half the investment banks and half the top law firms? Wow that's a lot of past employers. Either you have a hard time holding a job or you must be quite elderly. Either way impressive. Far less than half of analysts become associates these days. Maybe 20%. The rest are either not invited to continue, head back to school, or find something they like better.

T14hoping
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Re: IBanking WE --> Scholarships?

Postby T14hoping » Tue Sep 11, 2012 7:34 pm

michlaw wrote:What's a tier three law school? You have worked at half the investment banks and half the top law firms? Wow that's a lot of past employers. Either you have a hard time holding a job or you must be quite elderly. Either way impressive. Far less than half of analysts become associates these days. Maybe 20%. The rest are either not invited to continue, head back to school, or find something they like better.

He said worked with, not at.

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dingbat
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Re: IBanking WE --> Scholarships?

Postby dingbat » Tue Sep 11, 2012 7:43 pm

michlaw wrote:What's a tier three law school? You have worked at half the investment banks and half the top law firms? Wow that's a lot of past employers.
T14hoping wrote:He said worked with, not at.
michlaw wrote:Either you have a hard time holding a job or you must be quite elderly. Either way impressive.
I'm in my mid '30s, and my resume is, actually, quite impressive, thank you very much
michlaw wrote:Far less than half of analysts become associates these days. Maybe 20%. The rest are either not invited to continue, head back to school, or find something they like better.
That's my point, except that the vast majority are "not invited to continue" as you so eloquently put it.
Those who head back to school are unlikely to have been in a position to get promoted - otherwise they would have stayed. As for finding something they like better, well, I'm sure that there are plenty of people who burn out, but it's unlikely they can find a decent job in the industry without several years work experience (and again, the lion's share are people who have been passed over for promotion)
And that's not even taking into consideration those who've been shitcanned.

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HawkeyeGirl
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Re: IBanking WE --> Scholarships?

Postby HawkeyeGirl » Tue Sep 11, 2012 8:38 pm

Most analysts I know enter banking with no intention of staying, in fact, I can't name one person who actually wants to be a banker for their career. Most people go into the analyst stint with their eye on PE or HFs. And most people I know that have wanted PE have gotten PE and haven't had any desire to return to banking. Obviously a lot of people got laid off back in the recession and there are rounds of lay offs still going on, but likely any analyst that got laid off wasn't one who wanted to stay and be a lifer anyway. Analysts are the cheapest resource too, it's a lot more cost effective to fire an under-performing mid level person.

Edit: I should caveat this by saying most people I know are in coverage banking. Capital Markets folks do tend to stay I think.

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dingbat
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Re: IBanking WE --> Scholarships?

Postby dingbat » Tue Sep 11, 2012 8:57 pm

HawkeyeGirl wrote:Most analysts I know enter banking with no intention of staying, in fact, I can't name one person who actually wants to be a banker for their career. Most people go into the analyst stint with their eye on PE or HFs. And most people I know that have wanted PE have gotten PE and haven't had any desire to return to banking. Obviously a lot of people got laid off back in the recession and there are rounds of lay offs still going on, but likely any analyst that got laid off wasn't one who wanted to stay and be a lifer anyway. Analysts are the cheapest resource too, it's a lot more cost effective to fire an under-performing mid level person.

Edit: I should caveat this by saying most people I know are in coverage banking. Capital Markets folks do tend to stay I think.

I've known people whose entire divisions were shuttered. everyone from analyst to MD got shitcanned. But yeah, a lot of people look at IBs as a stepping stone to (potentially) more lucrative PE or HF jobs

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HawkeyeGirl
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Re: IBanking WE --> Scholarships?

Postby HawkeyeGirl » Tue Sep 11, 2012 9:53 pm

Yeah, sadly I think everyone on the street knows of at least someone who's entire group got canned...

Anyway, I just hope I do well enough on the LSAT that I can kiss finance goodbye! I'm leaning towards NU Early Decision right now, but obviously things might change depending on the LSAT. I'm just hoping I won't be staffed on a mega-pitch for October 8th!

Btw, random question, but does anyone know if lawyers have the equivalent of an IB pitch? Something that you spend mountains of time on that has only a chance of a revenue event? One of the things that really annoys me about banking is how nuts some people go over pitches. I realize it's how we win business, but it just seems to me like closing deals (actual fee event) is more important than winning pitches (potential fee event, the deal may never close)...

michlaw
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Re: IBanking WE --> Scholarships?

Postby michlaw » Wed Sep 12, 2012 9:21 am

What is your deferral policy?
We believe that prospective students benefit from experiences outside of a college or university setting and thus encourage you to take time off before going to law school. You may want to take time off before applying because your experience during that time off may inform your decision to attend graduate school; also, you may be able to put together a more complete application because you have had additional opportunities to write about (and from which to obtain recommendations). You may want to apply and then defer after you are accepted. That is okay, too. We rarely turn down a request for a deferral if it is made in a timely manner and if the prospective student explains why they are taking time off. Generally we grant one-year deferrals, but we also grant two-year deferrals for certain types of activities (e.g., Teach For America, Peace Corps, 2-year analyst programs at banks and consulting firms, etc.). We also grant extensions to deferrals when necessary.


This is Harvard's view of the value of analyst programs. Seems positive to me.

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dingbat
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Re: IBanking WE --> Scholarships?

Postby dingbat » Wed Sep 12, 2012 9:24 am

HawkeyeGirl wrote:One of the things that really annoys me about banking is how nuts some people go over pitches. I realize it's how we win business, but it just seems to me like closing deals (actual fee event) is more important than winning pitches (potential fee event, the deal may never close)...

I hate to say it, but winning pitches is more important than closing dealsWhile closing deals is an actual fee event, it doesn't in and of itself generate business and once you close, the transaction is over.
Winning a pitch, on the other hand, can lead to multiple deal closings. Creating a relationship, creating new avenues for deals is more important.

It's like digging a well vs taking water from it
When you take water from a well, you drink, but when the water is gone you go thirsty
If you dig a well, you then can draw water from it. The more wells you dig, the more water you can draw, and you never need be thirsty again.
(this coming from someone who hates sales and loves closings)

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dingbat
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Re: IBanking WE --> Scholarships?

Postby dingbat » Wed Sep 12, 2012 9:25 am

michlaw wrote:
What is your deferral policy?
We believe that prospective students benefit from experiences outside of a college or university setting and thus encourage you to take time off before going to law school. You may want to take time off before applying because your experience during that time off may inform your decision to attend graduate school; also, you may be able to put together a more complete application because you have had additional opportunities to write about (and from which to obtain recommendations). You may want to apply and then defer after you are accepted. That is okay, too. We rarely turn down a request for a deferral if it is made in a timely manner and if the prospective student explains why they are taking time off. Generally we grant one-year deferrals, but we also grant two-year deferrals for certain types of activities (e.g., Teach For America, Peace Corps, 2-year analyst programs at banks and consulting firms, etc.). We also grant extensions to deferrals when necessary.


This is Harvard's view of the value of analyst programs. Seems positive to me.

so work experience > no experience
Image

michlaw
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Re: IBanking WE --> Scholarships?

Postby michlaw » Wed Sep 12, 2012 9:37 am

Maybe a standard is required. An analyst position at Goldman, Morgan, or Stanley is more impressive than admission to any law school ranked below six. So if you are applying to lower ranked schools mention it. For the top schools don't bother.

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dingbat
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Re: IBanking WE --> Scholarships?

Postby dingbat » Wed Sep 12, 2012 9:41 am

michlaw wrote:Maybe a standard is required. An analyst position at Goldman, Morgan, or Stanley is more impressive than admission to any law school ranked below six. So if you are applying to lower ranked schools mention it. For the top schools don't bother.

:?: :?: :?: :?: :?: what kind of arbitrary bullcrap is this?
I do not consider an anlyst position to be more impressive than admission to a T14, and probably put it on par to admission to a T30, possibly lower.
Making it to associate I'll put on par with admission to T14 (minus Georgetown -hey, why not?)

michlaw
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Re: IBanking WE --> Scholarships?

Postby michlaw » Wed Sep 12, 2012 10:29 am

I'm surprised at your position. Take for example the 25th percentiles at Northwestern, levels at which actual students are admitted. 165 lsat puts you in the top 10%, not bad. 3.4 gpa puts you at what the top 25% of undergrads? More importantly the 3.4 can be from schools ranked below 100 at US News, for that matter it could be any school since the ratings do not judge the quality of the school attended. An analyst position at at top street firm requires, in most cases, top ten percent gpa or better from schools ranked at the very top of the charts. Much more selective and therefore meaningful in a law school app.

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dingbat
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Re: IBanking WE --> Scholarships?

Postby dingbat » Wed Sep 12, 2012 10:37 am

michlaw wrote:I'm surprised at your position. Take for example the 25th percentiles at Northwestern, levels at which actual students are admitted. 165 lsat puts you in the top 10%, not bad. 3.4 gpa puts you at what the top 25% of undergrads? More importantly the 3.4 can be from schools ranked below 100 at US News, for that matter it could be any school since the ratings do not judge the quality of the school attended. An internship at at top street firm requires in most cases top ten percent gpa or better from schools ranked at the very top of the charts. Much more selective and therefore meaningful in a law school app.

My position is from having worked with biglaw associates coming out of top law schools and from having worked with analysts, associates and VPs at bulge bracket firms.
A big part of getting into those firms is a matter of making the right decisions in high school that gets them into ivy schools
If someone instead instead spent too much time "socializing" and didn't care about grades, that didn't make them less capable, just less marketable. Then, those hard-working, not too stupid people just continued to work hard in college and got good grades, getting them good jobs.
Now if someone gets a CFA, in the industry that's more important than an MBA, because it doesn't just require hard work, it requires brain power too. (a CFA is much more difficult)
getting into a good law school means not just good grades, but also an aptitutde test that, despite what people say here, does indicate capability

michlaw
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Re: IBanking WE --> Scholarships?

Postby michlaw » Fri Sep 14, 2012 6:11 am


michlaw
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Re: IBanking WE --> Scholarships?

Postby michlaw » Sun Oct 14, 2012 2:00 pm

Two campers were hiking in the woods and they stumbled upon a brown bear. One camper reached into his backpack and quickly pulled out a pair of tennis shoes. "What are you doing" said the one camper, "you can't outrun that bear." The other camper replied, "I don't have to outrun the bear, I just have to outrun you!"


After spending yesterday afternoon at the NYC Hilton LSAC forum it struck me. You need to shine within your specific competitor group.

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dingbat
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Re: IBanking WE --> Scholarships?

Postby dingbat » Sun Oct 14, 2012 4:22 pm

michlaw wrote:
Two campers were hiking in the woods and they stumbled upon a brown bear. One camper reached into his backpack and quickly pulled out a pair of tennis shoes. "What are you doing" said the one camper, "you can't outrun that bear." The other camper replied, "I don't have to outrun the bear, I just have to outrun you!"


After spending yesterday afternoon at the NYC Hilton LSAC forum it struck me. You need to shine within your specific competitor group.

I'm glad you figured it out - that really is all that matters




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