Arrested...again

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Amoore114133
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Re: Arrested...again

Postby Amoore114133 » Wed Sep 05, 2012 7:14 pm

dude schools only care about numbers. Misdemeanors are nothing....you would be in trouble with law school if you got a felony

uvabro
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Re: Arrested...again

Postby uvabro » Wed Sep 05, 2012 7:14 pm

I'm more concerned with why the fight happened. From the perspective of a 1L, you become pretty close with your law school classmates and don't just ditch someone. I'd want to know what I was risking my c+f for if I was in school with you.

However, it may be a blessing. If you're in the Rutgers LSAT range, you may want to sit out and reapply. I think law school adcoms mostly just want to avoid having dicks in their school, and this situation in reference to a pattern may make you look like a dick. I think coming back with a high LSAT, and a year of non-activity may bode well for you plus studying for the LSAT will keep you out of trouble. Nobody ever felt tough studying for the LSAT, and as someone who is naturally aggressive as well, I can say first hand studying for the LSAT definitely upped my decision making under pressure.... as did smoking. Only do the first, though.

uvabro
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Re: Arrested...again

Postby uvabro » Wed Sep 05, 2012 7:15 pm

Amoore114133 wrote:dude schools only care about numbers. Misdemeanors are nothing....you would be in trouble with law school if you got a felony

that's not true. i had some c+f issues (non felony), and got rejected from some borderline tier 1s, but got into top 14s. they only look like they care about #'s, because the differences are so slight between many people. with c+f it's really about who is reading your application.

Ec84
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Re: Arrested...again

Postby Ec84 » Wed Sep 05, 2012 8:18 pm

Amoore114133 wrote:dude schools only care about numbers. Misdemeanors are nothing....you would be in trouble with law school if you got a felony



I have a few arrests on my record (no felonies or anything like that) and I am in a T-1 school. Some applications are far more in-depth than others when it comes to records. Anyways, what's done is done so for what it is worth I would follow through with the applications and check with the state bar just to make sure your record will not prevent you from being admitted..... And I am a little shocked at how judgmental some of the posters are about this... some minor run-ins with the law doesn't give anyone the right to determine how someone will impact the profession. With a holier than thou mentality like that I hope they aren't pursuing a career in criminal law.

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JCFindley
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Re: Arrested...again

Postby JCFindley » Wed Sep 05, 2012 8:47 pm

TrialLawyer16 wrote:
BigZuck wrote:I think it's ironic that TLS jumps all over posters who think they are special snowflakes in that they will get into a school they have no shot at or eventually get a job after attending a school that has poor job prospects yet people in this thread were yelled down for assuming the OP was just your typical douchebag screw up just because they don't know him or they weren't there. Personally I have never known someone who had been repeatedly arrested who wasn't stupid and immature at best or just a straight up bad seed at worse. One fight is no big deal but repeated arrests? Repeated court dates? Seems like red flags to me.

Listen to yourself. You find this strange? :shock:

Some of you need to go live life and stop living behind a computer screen. Nobody is saying that OP is a great guy or upstanding citizen. He messed up. Bad. Numerous times. However, not kicking a man while he's down is something you're supposed to learn as a child.


As is knowing when to walk away from a fight.....

PS, the OP did state the details and jumping on a guy and continuing to strike him while the opponent is on the ground is so far removed from self defense it is laughable.

In all seriousness, I would take a couple years off and think it over and maybe get some good WE. It is really quite easy to avoid fights; it really is.

DoctorShawHi
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Re: Arrested...again

Postby DoctorShawHi » Thu Sep 06, 2012 7:40 am

You people need to chill out with calling other people jackasses. No one's even arguing that avoiding a fight is hard or that it wasn't immature/stupid. I'm sure OP didn't come here to be accosted for a mistake he already feels shit about.

Please, tell me that you've never done anything similarly stupid. No one is quite as innocent as a clean rap sheet. Maybe you've never had a run in with police, but don't think for a second that this makes you better than this poor guy. Luckier? Sure. But don't lie. I know what you've done. I went to college.

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JCFindley
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Re: Arrested...again

Postby JCFindley » Thu Sep 06, 2012 10:22 am

DoctorShawHi wrote:You people need to chill out with calling other people jackasses. No one's even arguing that avoiding a fight is hard or that it wasn't immature/stupid. I'm sure OP didn't come here to be accosted for a mistake he already feels shit about.

Please, tell me that you've never done anything similarly stupid. No one is quite as innocent as a clean rap sheet. Maybe you've never had a run in with police, but don't think for a second that this makes you better than this poor guy. Luckier? Sure. But don't lie. I know what you've done. I went to college.


FWIW, I didn't call him a jackass nor do I assume that this will ruin his life or really have any long term effect. Hey, shit happens.

That said, generally a little time passage can really help ease the worry about said shit happening again when it comes to employers/adcoms.

Getting into a fight after high school can be very murky territory when it comes to law. Frankly, the OP is very lucky the charge is only what it is as there is a case here to be made for assault as the response was not proportional to the push. (The punch, maybe, the ground and pound, not so much.) Even if the guy pulled a knife on him, he is only really allowed to do enough to neutralize the threat but once the attacker is no longer a threat, continuing the beating becomes assault.

I have taught self defense for many years and my emphasis is always on avoidance. Physical force should be a last option and certainly never used for a mere exchange of words. When it comes to pushing, it simply shows that your opponent/attacker lacks testicles and has to work himself into a state before he can become physical. Pushing is a sign of weakness in my opinion so I would not get physical in that situation but pushing is also assault so some response if warranted. How much is the question though.

No biggie though as the charge is minor and time without being arrested again will work in his favor. Whether any school worth attending will overlook it this cycle remains to be seen but the only way for him to find out would be to give it a try.

OP, I wish you nothing but the best,

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TrialLawyer16
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Re: Arrested...again

Postby TrialLawyer16 » Thu Sep 06, 2012 10:50 am

JCFindley wrote:
TrialLawyer16 wrote:
BigZuck wrote:I think it's ironic that TLS jumps all over posters who think they are special snowflakes in that they will get into a school they have no shot at or eventually get a job after attending a school that has poor job prospects yet people in this thread were yelled down for assuming the OP was just your typical douchebag screw up just because they don't know him or they weren't there. Personally I have never known someone who had been repeatedly arrested who wasn't stupid and immature at best or just a straight up bad seed at worse. One fight is no big deal but repeated arrests? Repeated court dates? Seems like red flags to me.

Listen to yourself. You find this strange? :shock:

Some of you need to go live life and stop living behind a computer screen. Nobody is saying that OP is a great guy or upstanding citizen. He messed up. Bad. Numerous times. However, not kicking a man while he's down is something you're supposed to learn as a child.


As is knowing when to walk away from a fight.....

PS, the OP did state the details and jumping on a guy and continuing to strike him while the opponent is on the ground is so far removed from self defense it is laughable.

In all seriousness, I would take a couple years off and think it over and maybe get some good WE. It is really quite easy to avoid fights; it really is.

Two wrongs don't make a right, my friend.
DoctorShawHi wrote:You people need to chill out with calling other people jackasses. No one's even arguing that avoiding a fight is hard or that it wasn't immature/stupid. I'm sure OP didn't come here to be accosted for a mistake he already feels shit about.

Please, tell me that you've never done anything similarly stupid. No one is quite as innocent as a clean rap sheet. Maybe you've never had a run in with police, but don't think for a second that this makes you better than this poor guy. Luckier? Sure. But don't lie. I know what you've done. I went to college.
+1 to this entire post. Couldn't have said it better myself.

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sunynp
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Re: Arrested...again

Postby sunynp » Thu Sep 06, 2012 12:04 pm

Is it really so hard to believe that most people have never had a run- in with the police? Most people manage to live and party and go to school and never see a cop. Seriously.

I'm not judging OP because I dont care- but I've never had any run-ins and neither have any of my friends.

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20130312
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Re: Arrested...again

Postby 20130312 » Thu Sep 06, 2012 12:10 pm

sunynp wrote:Is it really so hard to believe that most people have never had a run- in with the police? Most people manage to live and party and go to school and never see a cop. Seriously.

I'm not judging OP because I dont care- but I've never had any run-ins and neither have any of my friends.

Some of my friends have been downright unlucky (i.e. we were doing the exact same thing in the same place at the same time. They got busted by the cops and I didn't).

uvabro
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Re: Arrested...again

Postby uvabro » Thu Sep 06, 2012 12:10 pm

sunynp wrote:Is it really so hard to believe that most people have never had a run- in with the police? Most people manage to live and party and go to school and never see a cop. Seriously.

I'm not judging OP because I dont care- but I've never had any run-ins and neither have any of my friends.

I think it depends on where you live, and other factors.

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Easy-E
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Re: Arrested...again

Postby Easy-E » Thu Sep 06, 2012 12:20 pm

Damn, really incited an argument here. I appreciate the views on both sides. Also, JCFindley, I'm not sure if I misspoke before but I only said I jumped on him once he was down. His two friends jumped in pretty quickly, so it wasn't as if I was beating an unconscious person. That said, no, responding a shove with a punch is not reasonable, although I was being verbally threatened and had already had my shirt torn in the earlier arguing. I do appreciate all reasonable responses, both negative and positive.

For anyone interested, my lawyer is going to try and knock it down to a borough ordinance. I guess I'll wait till after the final ruling before I do any applications so the information is as accurate as possible.
Last edited by Easy-E on Thu Sep 06, 2012 12:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Easy-E
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Re: Arrested...again

Postby Easy-E » Thu Sep 06, 2012 12:24 pm

InGoodFaith wrote:
sunynp wrote:Is it really so hard to believe that most people have never had a run- in with the police? Most people manage to live and party and go to school and never see a cop. Seriously.

I'm not judging OP because I dont care- but I've never had any run-ins and neither have any of my friends.

Some of my friends have been downright unlucky (i.e. we were doing the exact same thing in the same place at the same time. They got busted by the cops and I didn't).


I think we might know each other outside TLS...

I know it's a pretty cliche excuse, but I had some really shitty luck in my teen years. Doesn't change the facts, but it's not as if I was pissing on main street drinking a bottle of gin, more often I was walking home from a party (drunk) and got picked up. In a small suburban town, it's not like the police have murders to solve. Interestingly enough, I'm now buddies with a few cops, one or two of which have arrested me in my youth. Small towns are weird.

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JCFindley
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Re: Arrested...again

Postby JCFindley » Thu Sep 06, 2012 4:20 pm

emarxnj wrote:Damn, really incited an argument here. I appreciate the views on both sides. Also, JCFindley, I'm not sure if I misspoke before but I only said I jumped on him once he was down. His two friends jumped in pretty quickly, so it wasn't as if I was beating an unconscious person. That said, no, responding a shove with a punch is not reasonable, although I was being verbally threatened and had already had my shirt torn in the earlier arguing. I do appreciate all reasonable responses, both negative and positive.

For anyone interested, my lawyer is going to try and knock it down to a borough ordinance. I guess I'll wait till after the final ruling before I do any applications so the information is as accurate as possible.



Shit happens and I am not judging here but, once he is on the ground he is no longer a threat so any continued aggression could no longer be considered self defense. (This is spoken as a practitioner and obviously should not be construed as “legal advice.”)

No biggie as your charge is minor and certainly won’t have long term effect but it may be a cause of concern for adcoms in the short term.

Good luck.

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Easy-E
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Re: Arrested...again

Postby Easy-E » Thu Sep 06, 2012 4:33 pm

JCFindley wrote:
emarxnj wrote:Damn, really incited an argument here. I appreciate the views on both sides. Also, JCFindley, I'm not sure if I misspoke before but I only said I jumped on him once he was down. His two friends jumped in pretty quickly, so it wasn't as if I was beating an unconscious person. That said, no, responding a shove with a punch is not reasonable, although I was being verbally threatened and had already had my shirt torn in the earlier arguing. I do appreciate all reasonable responses, both negative and positive.

For anyone interested, my lawyer is going to try and knock it down to a borough ordinance. I guess I'll wait till after the final ruling before I do any applications so the information is as accurate as possible.



Shit happens and I am not judging here but, once he is on the ground he is no longer a threat so any continued aggression could no longer be considered self defense. (This is spoken as a practitioner and obviously should not be construed as “legal advice.”)

No biggie as your charge is minor and certainly won’t have long term effect but it may be a cause of concern for adcoms in the short term.

Good luck.



Hopefully whatever my lawyer gets it knocked down to will read better than disorderly persons. I don't think we're going the self-defense route or anything, just trying to get it done.

uvabro
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Re: Arrested...again

Postby uvabro » Thu Sep 06, 2012 6:34 pm

Why were you fighting?

I think the main issue it would influence your apps is law schools might see you as a liability. i don't think they're sitting there thinking oh this guy deserves to get in or this guy doesn't. i'd think they just want to put together a damn class that won't cause too much stress. also, most law school socializing involves alcohol and frankly, if i were in their shoes i'd want to give you the dez bryant treatment to out of law school socialization.

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manofjustice
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Re: Arrested...again

Postby manofjustice » Thu Sep 06, 2012 7:10 pm

AlanShore wrote:depends. will this arrest turn into a conviction of some sort? if not, most schools only ask about convictions.


I don't know if that's true.

What are your numbers? That's gonna matter.

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Easy-E
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Re: Arrested...again

Postby Easy-E » Thu Sep 06, 2012 8:24 pm

manofjustice wrote:
AlanShore wrote:depends. will this arrest turn into a conviction of some sort? if not, most schools only ask about convictions.


I don't know if that's true.

What are your numbers? That's gonna matter.


I've only done one app and it amounted to any arrest, not just convictions. Obviously that's only one, if they only ask about convictions on some that'd be great.

3.1 169 2 years WE

DoctorShawHi
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Re: Arrested...again

Postby DoctorShawHi » Thu Sep 06, 2012 9:05 pm

This isn't a "judging you post", for the record. I think that the entire Character and Fitness thing is a painfully laughable joke and there's no good reason to have such a test. But I would actually seriously reconsider law school for now if I were you. Chances are, someone is going to accept you with a 169, but is it really worth the debt you'll graduate with if you can't pass the bar's C&F?

Schools might look the other way if they're desperate for the numbers, the bar examiners will not

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Easy-E
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Re: Arrested...again

Postby Easy-E » Thu Sep 06, 2012 9:49 pm

DoctorShawHi wrote:This isn't a "judging you post", for the record. I think that the entire Character and Fitness thing is a painfully laughable joke and there's no good reason to have such a test. But I would actually seriously reconsider law school for now if I were you. Chances are, someone is going to accept you with a 169, but is it really worth the debt you'll graduate with if you can't pass the bar's C&F?

Schools might look the other way if they're desperate for the numbers, the bar examiners will not


Once I take care of this and see what I end up with, I'm going to contact the bar association in the few states I'm interesting in practicing in and seeing what would disqualify me outright.

Also, the majority of schools I'm applying to are schools where my numbers would normally get me a large scholarship.



Maybe it's just this forum but it seems the majority of responses in here are from people with low post counts. Not that it automatically discounts your replies, but I was hoping to hear from some of the TLS vets, whether the news is good or bad.

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JCFindley
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Re: Arrested...again

Postby JCFindley » Thu Sep 06, 2012 10:18 pm

emarxnj wrote:
DoctorShawHi wrote:This isn't a "judging you post", for the record. I think that the entire Character and Fitness thing is a painfully laughable joke and there's no good reason to have such a test. But I would actually seriously reconsider law school for now if I were you. Chances are, someone is going to accept you with a 169, but is it really worth the debt you'll graduate with if you can't pass the bar's C&F?

Schools might look the other way if they're desperate for the numbers, the bar examiners will not


Once I take care of this and see what I end up with, I'm going to contact the bar association in the few states I'm interesting in practicing in and seeing what would disqualify me outright.

Also, the majority of schools I'm applying to are schools where my numbers would normally get me a large scholarship.



Maybe it's just this forum but it seems the majority of responses in here are from people with low post counts. Not that it automatically discounts your replies, but I was hoping to hear from some of the TLS vets, whether the news is good or bad.


Hey, I have a pretty high number count..... heh

The thing is I am not sure anyone on here will be able to tell you unless they were in the same situation and time frame. The good news on that is it really doesn't matter what anyone here says or thinks but what the adcoms care and think. I went against ALL the TLS CW this past cycle because no one here was in my situation nor could they really know how the adcoms would view my app. I will tell you that worked for me so regardless of what we think send your apps in and see what happens. The worst thing would be they say no, you lose a few bucks for an app here and there and then readdress it next year after really studying and getting a 180.

I doubt a fighting charge will kill you for most state BARs but I really have no idea. But, as you said, you can find that out before spending millions.

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SemperLegal
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Re: Arrested...again

Postby SemperLegal » Thu Sep 06, 2012 10:23 pm

OP check PM

criminaltheory
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Re: Arrested...again

Postby criminaltheory » Thu Sep 06, 2012 10:29 pm

emarxnj wrote:Once I take care of this and see what I end up with, I'm going to contact the bar association in the few states I'm interesting in practicing in and seeing what would disqualify me outright.

Also, the majority of schools I'm applying to are schools where my numbers would normally get me a large scholarship.



Maybe it's just this forum but it seems the majority of responses in here are from people with low post counts. Not that it automatically discounts your replies, but I was hoping to hear from some of the TLS vets, whether the news is good or bad.


Not a high post-counter here, but I've been digging around on these questions too.

The NCBEX has a neat PDF ((http://www.ncbex.org/assets/media_files/Comp-Guide/CompGuide.pdf))that lists some C&F requirements by state. Most states don't auto-ding you even with felonies, at least according to the spreadsheet on page 16, so the question to me is less whether or not you'll be disqualified but whether you're taking steps to deal with it professionally. Definitely talk to the bars and use the conversation as a chance to feel out the C&F process, and perhaps mention the convo in your addendum if the issue seems serious enough.

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manofjustice
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Re: Arrested...again

Postby manofjustice » Thu Sep 06, 2012 10:36 pm

emarxnj wrote:
manofjustice wrote:
AlanShore wrote:depends. will this arrest turn into a conviction of some sort? if not, most schools only ask about convictions.


I don't know if that's true.

What are your numbers? That's gonna matter.


I've only done one app and it amounted to any arrest, not just convictions. Obviously that's only one, if they only ask about convictions on some that'd be great.

3.1 169 2 years WE


Well the LSAT is higherish. So, at a school with a median around 163ish, 164ish...I think you have a chance. It also sort of depends on the length + nature of the record. I am worried, there is no way around it, because of the recentness and the pattern. But you will get in somewhere. It is just a question of...you kinda might be at the back of the line for splitters at schools of a certain level. When they start taking splitters, they'll take you last. But they'll never take a below 75th %tile LSAT over yours (if it's above) just because of minor C&F that wouldn't disqualify you from the bar. The overall effect might be that you'll be on the waitlist longer and will have to take a leg down in school quality (i.e. T20 instead of T14, T50 instead of T20). My guess is around the T50 will be your sweet spot.

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Easy-E
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Re: Arrested...again

Postby Easy-E » Fri Sep 07, 2012 8:51 am

manofjustice wrote:
emarxnj wrote:
manofjustice wrote:
AlanShore wrote:depends. will this arrest turn into a conviction of some sort? if not, most schools only ask about convictions.


I don't know if that's true.

What are your numbers? That's gonna matter.


I've only done one app and it amounted to any arrest, not just convictions. Obviously that's only one, if they only ask about convictions on some that'd be great.

3.1 169 2 years WE


Well the LSAT is higherish. So, at a school with a median around 163ish, 164ish...I think you have a chance. It also sort of depends on the length + nature of the record. I am worried, there is no way around it, because of the recentness and the pattern. But you will get in somewhere. It is just a question of...you kinda might be at the back of the line for splitters at schools of a certain level. When they start taking splitters, they'll take you last. But they'll never take a below 75th %tile LSAT over yours (if it's above) just because of minor C&F that wouldn't disqualify you from the bar. The overall effect might be that you'll be on the waitlist longer and will have to take a leg down in school quality (i.e. T20 instead of T14, T50 instead of T20). My guess is around the T50 will be your sweet spot.


As it stands I was planning on applying to schools where my LSAT is above median (plus about 4 reaches). I got fee waivers most if not all the safer schools, so I'm not out much money applying. If my results are unsatisfying, I have to decide whether I want to take another year off and take the LSAT a third time, or consider taking it in December if I want to try and get off waitlists. More than likely though I'll be going somewhere in the region I want to work for as little money as possible.

Thanks for the responses guys




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