Abrupt Resignation of St. Louis U LS Dean (Kinda Badass)

(Applications Advice, Letters of Recommendation . . . )
jared6180
Posts: 306
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2011 11:47 pm

Re: Abrupt Resignation of St. Louis U LS Dean (Kinda Badass)

Postby jared6180 » Wed Aug 08, 2012 10:23 pm

love the resignation letter. I am really glad to see someone stand up for students and for legal education in general.

the president seems to be REALLY overselling this new dean and not addressing any of the accusations against him, which seems would be pretty simple to do if the accusations were all complete lies. Based on the language though I tend to believe the ex-dean.

I really like that she is staying on the staff. I am sure she will be around to whisper in the ear of the new dean when he gets screwed around. If any of these accusations are true, I would like to see the IRS audit the Pres and VP personally, this kind of dishonesty is not likely to end in their professional lives.

User avatar
patrickd139
Posts: 2883
Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2009 8:53 pm

Re: Abrupt Resignation of St. Louis U LS Dean (Kinda Badass)

Postby patrickd139 » Wed Aug 08, 2012 10:51 pm

Apparently, there's more. President's reaction here.

User avatar
2014
Posts: 5834
Joined: Sat Jun 05, 2010 3:53 pm

Re: Abrupt Resignation of St. Louis U LS Dean (Kinda Badass)

Postby 2014 » Wed Aug 08, 2012 11:11 pm

Oh god...so much dirty laundry.

Also lol @ their new "dean". His credentials are that he is an SLU alum and a successful personal injury attorney in another state. Definitely a home run hire if I ever heard of one.

User avatar
Bildungsroman
Posts: 5548
Joined: Sun Apr 11, 2010 2:42 pm

Re: Abrupt Resignation of St. Louis U LS Dean (Kinda Badass)

Postby Bildungsroman » Wed Aug 08, 2012 11:13 pm

patrickd139 wrote:Apparently, there's more. President's reaction here.

Normally, doesn't the institution take the high road when a former employee/officer makes a stink? I really like SLU's "no, fuck you" approach.

User avatar
patrickd139
Posts: 2883
Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2009 8:53 pm

Re: Abrupt Resignation of St. Louis U LS Dean (Kinda Badass)

Postby patrickd139 » Wed Aug 08, 2012 11:38 pm

2014 wrote:Oh god...so much dirty laundry.

Also lol @ their new "dean". His credentials are that he is an SLU alum and a successful personal injury attorney in another state. Definitely a home run hire if I ever heard of one.

Hey, he donated a metric ton of money, too.

User avatar
patrickd139
Posts: 2883
Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2009 8:53 pm

Re: Abrupt Resignation of St. Louis U LS Dean (Kinda Badass)

Postby patrickd139 » Wed Aug 08, 2012 11:38 pm

Bildungsroman wrote:
patrickd139 wrote:Apparently, there's more. President's reaction here.

Normally, doesn't the institution take the high road when a former employee/officer makes a stink? I really like SLU's "no, fuck you" approach.

Srsly. Independent of the outgoing dean's feelings, it definitely looks like they need a new president. Or at least a decent PR/marketing person.

flcath
Posts: 1502
Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2009 11:39 pm

Re: Abrupt Resignation of St. Louis U LS Dean (Kinda Badass)

Postby flcath » Wed Aug 08, 2012 11:45 pm

patrickd139 wrote:
Bildungsroman wrote:
patrickd139 wrote:Apparently, there's more. President's reaction here.

Normally, doesn't the institution take the high road when a former employee/officer makes a stink? I really like SLU's "no, fuck you" approach.

Srsly. Independent of the outgoing dean's feelings, it definitely looks like they need a new president. Or at least a decent PR/marketing person.

I hope I am never such a worthless shitboomer that I whine publicly about someone not having the "courtesy to honor" an appearance at their firing.

jared6180
Posts: 306
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2011 11:47 pm

Re: Abrupt Resignation of St. Louis U LS Dean (Kinda Badass)

Postby jared6180 » Thu Aug 09, 2012 2:08 am

patrickd139 wrote:
2014 wrote:Oh god...so much dirty laundry.

Also lol @ their new "dean". His credentials are that he is an SLU alum and a successful personal injury attorney in another state. Definitely a home run hire if I ever heard of one.

Hey, he donated a metric ton of money, too.


I wonder how much the winning bid for this job was.

Isn't this hire an extension of everything the former dean claimed was wrong with the school in the first place? According to her the president loved to grab for money, now this hire is again a result of a money grab. Wonder how much the new dean will be donating towards the remodel of that new law building in downtown STL? Mentioning this new deans financial contributions at all just legitimizes the ex-deans claims.

User avatar
MikeSpivey
Posts: 2618
Joined: Sun May 03, 2009 4:28 pm

Re: Abrupt Resignation of St. Louis U LS Dean (Kinda Badass)

Postby MikeSpivey » Thu Aug 09, 2012 9:07 am

To answer some of the law school profit model speculation, most law schools do not make much money anymore. Indeed, they do not want to. What they want to do is to project a yearly budget increase accurately that includes room for additional faculty hiring (the #1 expense), new programs, scholarship money, etc. Then the goal is to hit that target, the reason being that if you do not spend it central university is apt to come in and take it.

There are, of course, exceptions. Some law schools are struggling so much ITE that their central universities are keeping them afloat. Some law schools exist as singular entities and some exist as for-profit.

But the majority of law school get money from two primary source 1. interest off of endowment/contributions to the endowment and 2.tuition. (obviously there are other areas but this are very small and some, like state funding) are on a glide-path to zero). With interest of endowment, which at most schools is comprised of a blended multiple year, still being hit hard, most schools are not making money and are cutting back, freezing salaries, etc.

All of this is a long-winded way of saying that SLU was not a money tree.

I'll keep my personal speculation about this issue personal, but the above is not speculation. Law schools are not handing out cash bonuses in droves to anyone. To think so would be similar to thinking that law students are all graduating with 160k starting salaries and without debt.

BlueDiamond
Posts: 953
Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2010 12:56 pm

Re: Abrupt Resignation of St. Louis U LS Dean (Kinda Badass)

Postby BlueDiamond » Thu Aug 09, 2012 9:37 am

MikeSpivey wrote:To answer some of the law school profit model speculation, most law schools do not make much money anymore. Indeed, they do not want to. What they want to do is to project a yearly budget increase accurately that includes room for additional faculty hiring (the #1 expense), new programs, scholarship money, etc. Then the goal is to hit that target, the reason being that if you do not spend it central university is apt to come in and take it.

There are, of course, exceptions. Some law schools are struggling so much ITE that their central universities are keeping them afloat. Some law schools exist as singular entities and some exist as for-profit.

But the majority of law school get money from two primary source 1. interest off of endowment/contributions to the endowment and 2.tuition. (obviously there are other areas but this are very small and some, like state funding) are on a glide-path to zero). With interest of endowment, which at most schools is comprised of a blended multiple year, still being hit hard, most schools are not making money and are cutting back, freezing salaries, etc.

All of this is a long-winded way of saying that SLU was not a money tree.

I'll keep my personal speculation about this issue personal, but the above is not speculation. Law schools are not handing out cash bonuses in droves to anyone. To think so would be similar to thinking that law students are all graduating with 160k starting salaries and without debt.


Do you work in law school administration by chance?

I go to BC at a cost of tuition per student at 42k (just went up 2 grand with no explanation given). There's an estimate of 260 people per class with three classes in the school for a total of 780 people. 780 multiplied by 42k is roughly 32 million dollars (obviously needs adjustment somewhat lower for scholarships given). With the only large expenses left being a mortgage for the buildings and salaries, I'm having a hard time seeing how you're saying they're breaking even. Even assuming a ridiculous salary figure of 10 million, a ridiculous mortgage figure of 2 million, and ridiculous scholarship estimate of 10 million - you still have 10 million dollars left for what?

timbs4339
Posts: 2733
Joined: Sat Apr 02, 2011 12:19 pm

Re: Abrupt Resignation of St. Louis U LS Dean (Kinda Badass)

Postby timbs4339 » Thu Aug 09, 2012 9:42 am

According to the article below, one of the reasons for her resignation was the dean's refusal to give "summer research stipends" to faculty members. Some of that money might be used for students (although I couldn't see many recent grads doing bar prep AND working FT as an RA for the summer as well). After reading Failing Law Schools I have to assume this is money that would have gone straight into the pockets of the professors. Very little sympathy for her from me, especially because she is going to retain her cushy six-figure tenured job with all the attendant perks.

http://molawyersmedia.com/blog/2012/08/ ... ol-of-law/

Unfortunately, we've reached a point where the most likely scenario precipitating the closure of lower-ranked law schools is the greed and miserliness of the corrupt central university admins. Once law school becomes a net loss for the central university, the law school is going to have to start justifying their business model to their "investors". And if applications continue to drop and students continue to refuse to attend for full price, not even the rosy assumptions about this all being cyclical, making up the difference with LLMs, and the employment market coming back are going to save the schools from closure. When the first school falls the dam will break and others will drop.

flcath wrote:Yeah I agree with all that, and fwiw, I'm very pessimistic about the actual impact of scamblogging, tls, etc. I know a lot of people will get encouragement to attend LS, and have myself received some shockingly awful advice regarding employment (from an attorney).

It's kind of a crappy stalemate situation.


The scamblogs may not reach many people directly and the people they do reach are probably unconvinced (who are you going to believe, ethical, respectable law schools or some guy with a picture of shit on his website!) but they influenced the MSM and people like Campos, LST, DJM, Tamahana, and TLS. I was around in the ancient days of 08' when the movement was just going mainstream and a lot of the reflexive arguments used today are just refined things that the scambloggers have been saying for awhile. And I believe that stuff IS having a huge impact. Students aren't suddenly taking a look at the debt and job prospects and reaching a different conclusion. They are operating off of a new set of assumptions.

User avatar
romothesavior
Posts: 14772
Joined: Fri Jun 26, 2009 4:29 pm

Re: Abrupt Resignation of St. Louis U LS Dean (Kinda Badass)

Postby romothesavior » Thu Aug 09, 2012 9:53 am

An exciting hire from the bustling metropolis of Belleville, Illinois. Well done, SLU.

User avatar
alwayssunnyinfl
Posts: 4100
Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2012 9:34 pm

Re: Abrupt Resignation of St. Louis U LS Dean (Kinda Badass)

Postby alwayssunnyinfl » Thu Aug 09, 2012 10:04 am

flem wrote:
Bildungsroman wrote:Normally, doesn't the institution take the high road when a former employee/officer makes a stink? I really like SLU's "no, fuck you" approach.


YOU CAN'T QUIT. YOU'RE FUCKING FIRED.


:lol:

User avatar
2014
Posts: 5834
Joined: Sat Jun 05, 2010 3:53 pm

Re: Abrupt Resignation of St. Louis U LS Dean (Kinda Badass)

Postby 2014 » Thu Aug 09, 2012 10:06 am

What I want to know is how this guy is a "top personal injury attorney" in Illinois despite such an inspired location. Are there really that many ambulances to chase in Belleville or does he just weasel his way across the border regularly to pillage Missouri's fender benders?

User avatar
MikeSpivey
Posts: 2618
Joined: Sun May 03, 2009 4:28 pm

Re: Abrupt Resignation of St. Louis U LS Dean (Kinda Badass)

Postby MikeSpivey » Thu Aug 09, 2012 10:08 am

flem wrote:
MikeSpivey wrote:To answer some of the law school profit model speculation, most law schools do not make much money anymore. Indeed, they do not want to. What they want to do is to project a yearly budget increase accurately that includes room for additional faculty hiring (the #1 expense), new programs, scholarship money, etc. Then the goal is to hit that target, the reason being that if you do not spend it central university is apt to come in and take it.

There are, of course, exceptions. Some law schools are struggling so much ITE that their central universities are keeping them afloat. Some law schools exist as singular entities and some exist as for-profit.

But the majority of law school get money from two primary source 1. interest off of endowment/contributions to the endowment and 2.tuition. (obviously there are other areas but this are very small and some, like state funding) are on a glide-path to zero). With interest of endowment, which at most schools is comprised of a blended multiple year, still being hit hard, most schools are not making money and are cutting back, freezing salaries, etc.

All of this is a long-winded way of saying that SLU was not a money tree.

I'll keep my personal speculation about this issue personal, but the above is not speculation. Law schools are not handing out cash bonuses in droves to anyone. To think so would be similar to thinking that law students are all graduating with 160k starting salaries and without debt.


Ha. Well played.

Also, of humorous note. The email to faculty, students and staff at SLU from the President's office was indeed titled "special message". I think I may have rethought that one.

User avatar
bankruptedcasino
Posts: 95
Joined: Wed May 26, 2010 5:24 pm

Re: Abrupt Resignation of St. Louis U LS Dean (Kinda Badass)

Postby bankruptedcasino » Thu Aug 09, 2012 11:13 am

The fact that this school is bringing in an alleged top-flight personal injury lawyer from Belleville (just a stone's throw away from that gleaming city-on-the-hill known as East St. Louis) makes the president's allegations that the Dean was to be fired laughable at best.

It sounds like the school panicked, decided not to replace the Dean with a member of the tenured faculty, and instead handed the job off to a donor. But, hey, at least he's an energetic, dynamic, and an engaging person!

This has disaster written all over it. If you're in the c/o of 2015 at SLU, pull your seat deposit. This place is going down the tubes.

User avatar
bankruptedcasino
Posts: 95
Joined: Wed May 26, 2010 5:24 pm

Re: Abrupt Resignation of St. Louis U LS Dean (Kinda Badass)

Postby bankruptedcasino » Thu Aug 09, 2012 11:31 am

flem wrote:
bankruptedcasino wrote:The fact that this school is bringing in an alleged top-flight personal injury lawyer from Belleville (just a stone's throw away from that gleaming city-on-the-hill known as East St. Louis) makes the president's allegations that the Dean was to be fired laughable at best.

It sounds like the school panicked, decided not to replace the Dean with a member of the tenured faculty, and instead handed the job off to a donor. But, hey, at least he's an energetic, dynamic, and an engaging person!

This has disaster written all over it. If you're in the c/o of 2015 at SLU, pull your seat deposit. This place is going down the tubes.


To be fair, maybe they just wanted someone in charge of the school that could relate to the type of law its graduates will be forced to practice, if, of course, you're one of the lucky 50% that gets a job at all.


Totally agree. No doubt that this was the logic behind the decision (that and the fact that the dude has given gobs of money to the school). But I struggle to see how a personal injury lawyer with no experience in higher education would be successful in managing the faculty. Perhaps this is one of those theories where something that works in the "real world" is transferrable to academia, but I am very skeptical.

Besides, SLU is easily one of the most expensive schools in Missouri and its grads don't get the types of jobs that would help pay off all that debt. This fiasco is likely to encourage the better firms in Mizzou to look elsewhere for grads.

User avatar
romothesavior
Posts: 14772
Joined: Fri Jun 26, 2009 4:29 pm

Re: Abrupt Resignation of St. Louis U LS Dean (Kinda Badass)

Postby romothesavior » Thu Aug 09, 2012 11:41 am

I think it depends on the school. At many schools, the dean/president's only real job is to speak well at engagements, serve as an ambassador to the school, and raise money. You don't necessarily have to be an academic or have a thorough understanding of higher education, or at least I wouldn't think so. So maybe that's the case here.

I do think this hurts SLU a little bit, but SLU is 1) pretty much only a St. Louis metro area school to begin with, and 2) is so entrenched in the community that I doubt it hurts it much.

sfxx
Posts: 53
Joined: Mon Feb 21, 2011 9:39 pm

Re: Abrupt Resignation of St. Louis U LS Dean (Kinda Badass)

Postby sfxx » Thu Aug 09, 2012 12:16 pm

Any word on how this will effect WUSTL's ranking?

User avatar
romothesavior
Posts: 14772
Joined: Fri Jun 26, 2009 4:29 pm

Re: Abrupt Resignation of St. Louis U LS Dean (Kinda Badass)

Postby romothesavior » Thu Aug 09, 2012 1:34 pm

sfxx wrote:Any word on how this will effect WUSTL's ranking?

Uh... no.

jared6180
Posts: 306
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2011 11:47 pm

Re: Abrupt Resignation of St. Louis U LS Dean (Kinda Badass)

Postby jared6180 » Thu Aug 09, 2012 7:21 pm

sfxx wrote:Any word on how this will effect WUSTL's ranking?


If you bothered to read the WHOLE article...or just a couple paragraphs it would be obvious this has NOTHING to do with WUSTL...actually just read the title of this thread. I recommend you also read the letters from the ex-dean, maybe it will become a bit more clear...

I really want to say something about RC, but I will restrain myself.

User avatar
patrickd139
Posts: 2883
Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2009 8:53 pm

Re: Abrupt Resignation of St. Louis U LS Dean (Kinda Badass)

Postby patrickd139 » Thu Aug 09, 2012 7:25 pm

jared6180 wrote:
sfxx wrote:Any word on how this will effect WUSTL's ranking?


If you bothered to read the WHOLE article...or just a couple paragraphs it would be obvious this has NOTHING to do with WUSTL...actually just read the title of this thread. I recommend you also read the letters from the ex-dean, maybe it will become a bit more clear...

I really want to say something about RC, but I will restrain myself.

Image

flcath
Posts: 1502
Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2009 11:39 pm

Re: Abrupt Resignation of St. Louis U LS Dean (Kinda Badass)

Postby flcath » Thu Aug 09, 2012 8:03 pm

romothesavior wrote:I think it depends on the school. At many schools, the dean/president's only real job is to speak well at engagements, serve as an ambassador to the school, and raise money. You don't necessarily have to be an academic or have a thorough understanding of higher education, or at least I wouldn't think so. So maybe that's the case here.

I do think this hurts SLU a little bit, but SLU is 1) pretty much only a St. Louis metro area school to begin with, and 2) is so entrenched in the community that I doubt it hurts it much.

As far as SLU students are concerned, this'll be a minor temporary embarrassment and a major protracted annoyance.

unitball
Posts: 64
Joined: Mon May 23, 2011 12:37 am

Re: Abrupt Resignation of St. Louis U LS Dean (Kinda Badass)

Postby unitball » Fri Aug 10, 2012 6:08 am

Jimmies are rustlin' in St. Louis.

User avatar
nickb285
Posts: 1500
Joined: Mon Jul 16, 2012 4:25 pm

Re: Abrupt Resignation of St. Louis U LS Dean (Kinda Badass)

Postby nickb285 » Sat Aug 11, 2012 3:24 am

Well, that was helpful.




Return to “Law School Admissions Forum”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: BrainsyK, carlos_danger, malysh and 9 guests