ABA to consider accrediting FOREIGN law schools

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flcath
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ABA to consider accrediting FOREIGN law schools

Postby flcath » Wed Aug 01, 2012 4:47 pm


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top30man
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Re: ABA to consider accrediting FOREIGN law schools

Postby top30man » Wed Aug 01, 2012 4:52 pm

How is this a good idea?

flcath
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Re: ABA to consider accrediting FOREIGN law schools

Postby flcath » Wed Aug 01, 2012 5:00 pm

top30man wrote:How is this a good idea?

I think it's ballsy as hell. You've gotta kinda admire it.

Such a bold "fuck you" to law students and recent grads, ITE? This represents a major departure from the ABA's longstanding policy of outwardly pretending to be interested in saving/restoring the legal profession.

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North
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Re: ABA to consider accrediting FOREIGN law schools

Postby North » Wed Aug 01, 2012 5:47 pm

Wow. I actually can't fucking believe it. How is this even on the table?

This makes me MAF.

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Mick Haller
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Re: ABA to consider accrediting FOREIGN law schools

Postby Mick Haller » Wed Aug 01, 2012 5:53 pm

This is a good thing, if enough Americans will study overseas to put downward pressure on domestic tuition.

I don't expect many Australians or Swedes will be opening up solo shops in rural Indiana. This is probably aimed at the small number of foreign lawyers at big firms.

flcath
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Re: ABA to consider accrediting FOREIGN law schools

Postby flcath » Wed Aug 01, 2012 5:53 pm

North wrote:Wow. I actually can't fucking believe it. How is this even on the table?

This makes me MAF.

Calm down. They had to do something to fill-in the shortage of domestic lawyers.

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North
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Re: ABA to consider accrediting FOREIGN law schools

Postby North » Wed Aug 01, 2012 5:57 pm

flcath wrote:
North wrote:Wow. I actually can't fucking believe it. How is this even on the table?

This makes me MAF.

Calm down. They had to do something to fill-in the shortage of domestic lawyers.
Somebody needs to sweep the SHITBOOMERS out of the ABA. How do we do it?

flcath
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Re: ABA to consider accrediting FOREIGN law schools

Postby flcath » Wed Aug 01, 2012 6:03 pm

North wrote:
flcath wrote:
North wrote:Wow. I actually can't fucking believe it. How is this even on the table?

This makes me MAF.

Calm down. They had to do something to fill-in the shortage of domestic lawyers.
Somebody needs to sweep the SHITBOOMERS out of the ABA. How do we do it?

Kill them in the streets and revel ankle-deep in their blood?

(This plan applies to all boomers, btw.)

Alternatively, we could institute a "Hand Over Your Vote For Handouts" program, wherein anyone who wants Medicare/SS benefits has to forfeit their right to vote.

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2014
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Re: ABA to consider accrediting FOREIGN law schools

Postby 2014 » Wed Aug 01, 2012 7:22 pm

ATL makes it sound like this has been proposed multiple times before and met with a shitstorm rejection each time. Wait to rage until they go through with it imo.

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North
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Re: ABA to consider accrediting FOREIGN law schools

Postby North » Wed Aug 01, 2012 7:32 pm

2014 wrote:Wait to rage until they go through with it imo.
It's generally easier to prevent a policy than to undo a policy. Rage now.

SchopenhauerFTW
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Re: ABA to consider accrediting FOREIGN law schools

Postby SchopenhauerFTW » Wed Aug 01, 2012 10:35 pm

Wow, seriously? They need to sit around and review/debate this idea? Fucking disgusting.

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buckilaw
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Re: ABA to consider accrediting FOREIGN law schools

Postby buckilaw » Thu Aug 02, 2012 1:52 am

Shitboomers who mainly work at TTTT institutions pursue a self-aggrandizing policy to the detriment of the rest of the profession? Color me shocked.

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buckilaw
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Re: ABA to consider accrediting FOREIGN law schools

Postby buckilaw » Thu Aug 02, 2012 1:55 am

The sad thing is, this will probably pass, this is the third consecutive year they have brought it up, they'll probably keep at it until they get their way. How can we point out, in a percussive way, that the ABA does dick with the power it currently has? Seems futile to get more power when the power you already have is ignored/misused.

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KevinP
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Re: ABA to consider accrediting FOREIGN law schools

Postby KevinP » Thu Aug 02, 2012 2:02 am

Funny thing is that this will probably work against U.S. law school, especially TTTs.

Although under-pricing U.S. law schools would probably be a good thing, Fordham makes a good point:
"Over the long run, we believe that extending ABA accreditation to foreign law schools may lead to the erosion of U.S. legal education as we know it. An ABA accredited law school in a foreign country with lower infrastructure, labor, and other such costs would be able to significantly under-price U.S. law schools...""

Source:
apps.americanbar.org/legaled/accreditation/Comments%20on%20Foreign%20Program%20Accreditation/Fordham.pdf

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KevinP
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Re: ABA to consider accrediting FOREIGN law schools

Postby KevinP » Thu Aug 02, 2012 2:04 am

Also, I think we can all agree when I say that the ABA is useless.

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buckilaw
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Re: ABA to consider accrediting FOREIGN law schools

Postby buckilaw » Thu Aug 02, 2012 2:04 am

KevinP wrote:Funny thing is that this will probably work against U.S. law school, especially TTTs.

Although under-pricing U.S. law schools would probably be a good thing, Fordham makes a good point:
"Over the long run, we believe that extending ABA accreditation to foreign law schools may lead to the erosion of U.S. legal education as we know it. An ABA accredited law school in a foreign country with lower infrastructure, labor, and other such costs would be able to significantly under-price U.S. law schools...""

Source:
apps.americanbar.org/legaled/accreditation/Comments%20on%20Foreign%20Program%20Accreditation/Fordham.pdf


Good to hear.

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buckilaw
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Re: ABA to consider accrediting FOREIGN law schools

Postby buckilaw » Thu Aug 02, 2012 2:04 am

KevinP wrote:Also, I think we can all agree when I say that the ABA is useless.


+1

timbs4339
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Re: ABA to consider accrediting FOREIGN law schools

Postby timbs4339 » Thu Aug 02, 2012 9:20 am

The best way to address the problems with tuition and oversupply is to address the problems with tuition and oversupply. Not to open up foreign schools and hope that this somehow fixes the problem indirectly. They thought the 1996 DOJ antitrust decision would increase competition as well by lowering accreditation standards. All that happened was that a bunch of TTT schools opened and then jacked up tuition.

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Mick Haller
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Re: ABA to consider accrediting FOREIGN law schools

Postby Mick Haller » Thu Aug 02, 2012 6:29 pm

KevinP wrote:Funny thing is that this will probably work against U.S. law school, especially TTTs.

Although under-pricing U.S. law schools would probably be a good thing, Fordham makes a good point:
"Over the long run, we believe that extending ABA accreditation to foreign law schools may lead to the erosion of U.S. legal education as we know it. An ABA accredited law school in a foreign country with lower infrastructure, labor, and other such costs would be able to significantly under-price U.S. law schools...""

Source:
apps.americanbar.org/legaled/accreditation/Comments%20on%20Foreign%20Program%20Accreditation/Fordham.pdf


+1

this was my first thought. I'd love to attend law school in Brazil or something for 1/3 the cost. It's not like you're doing much better by attending a mediocre TT or TTT. You're going to need personal connections either way, since academic pedigree doesnt really extend much beyond T20.

EDIT: I don't think we have to worry about a huge influx of foreign lawyers to compete for small firm work. They won't get visa support for that kind of thing. Only huge firms who need international specialists are going to have foreign lawyers coming in under this new scheme. For the rest of us, it's a good thing.

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North
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Re: ABA to consider accrediting FOREIGN law schools

Postby North » Thu Aug 02, 2012 6:42 pm

Mick Haller wrote:EDIT: I don't think we have to worry about a huge influx of foreign lawyers to compete for small firm work. They won't get visa support for that kind of thing. Only huge firms who need international specialists are going to have foreign lawyers coming in under this new scheme. For the rest of us, it's a good thing.
Wouldn't this policy fast-track outsourcing of legal jobs in the U.S.? It wouldn't only be American students getting these foreign J.D.'s, right?

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Mick Haller
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Re: ABA to consider accrediting FOREIGN law schools

Postby Mick Haller » Thu Aug 02, 2012 6:46 pm

North wrote:
Mick Haller wrote:EDIT: I don't think we have to worry about a huge influx of foreign lawyers to compete for small firm work. They won't get visa support for that kind of thing. Only huge firms who need international specialists are going to have foreign lawyers coming in under this new scheme. For the rest of us, it's a good thing.
Wouldn't this policy fast-track outsourcing of legal jobs in the U.S.? It wouldn't only be American students getting these foreign J.D.'s, right?


I'm not sure about that, but I don't think outsourcing is really that big of a deal. Typical small firm work probably cannot be outsourced. Navneet in Bangalore can't represent a criminal defendant by teleconference or have a final will signing. I doubt many ordinary folks who use small firm lawyers would trust a foreign attorney.

flcath
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Re: ABA to consider accrediting FOREIGN law schools

Postby flcath » Thu Aug 02, 2012 7:16 pm

Mick Haller wrote:
KevinP wrote:Funny thing is that this will probably work against U.S. law school, especially TTTs.

Although under-pricing U.S. law schools would probably be a good thing, Fordham makes a good point:
"Over the long run, we believe that extending ABA accreditation to foreign law schools may lead to the erosion of U.S. legal education as we know it. An ABA accredited law school in a foreign country with lower infrastructure, labor, and other such costs would be able to significantly under-price U.S. law schools...""

Source:
apps.americanbar.org/legaled/accreditation/Comments%20on%20Foreign%20Program%20Accreditation/Fordham.pdf


+1

this was my first thought. I'd love to attend law school in Brazil or something for 1/3 the cost. It's not like you're doing much better by attending a mediocre TT or TTT. You're going to need personal connections either way, since academic pedigree doesnt really extend much beyond T20.

EDIT: I don't think we have to worry about a huge influx of foreign lawyers to compete for small firm work. They won't get visa support for that kind of thing. Only huge firms who need international specialists are going to have foreign lawyers coming in under this new scheme. For the rest of us, it's a good thing.

The worry isn't that they'll come here at all, but that they'll stay abroad and do projects now done by temps.

I mean, think about what you're saying: do you really think that these foreign American law schools are going to be geared to producing "international specialists" for huge firms?

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KevinP
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Re: ABA to consider accrediting FOREIGN law schools

Postby KevinP » Thu Aug 02, 2012 11:13 pm

Mick Haller wrote:
North wrote:
Mick Haller wrote:EDIT: I don't think we have to worry about a huge influx of foreign lawyers to compete for small firm work. They won't get visa support for that kind of thing. Only huge firms who need international specialists are going to have foreign lawyers coming in under this new scheme. For the rest of us, it's a good thing.
Wouldn't this policy fast-track outsourcing of legal jobs in the U.S.? It wouldn't only be American students getting these foreign J.D.'s, right?


I'm not sure about that, but I don't think outsourcing is really that big of a deal. Typical small firm work probably cannot be outsourced. Navneet in Bangalore can't represent a criminal defendant by teleconference or have a final will signing. I doubt many ordinary folks who use small firm lawyers would trust a foreign attorney.


I work in the tech industry, and I've seen exactly how far companies are willing to go in order to cut labor costs. You'd be surprised at the how much of the poorly written code on critical software systems was written by cheap labor. I've seen my friends train their foreign visa replacements, and the companies justify the visas by claiming there isn't "enough qualified American labor." I've also seen how hard foreigners are willing to work and how much crap they are willing to put up with just so they don't lose their visas.

Considering the route that manufacturing, software development, etc. has followed, I think that the accreditation of foreign law schools will almost certainly cause a ton of legal jobs to be outsourced. And for jobs that require physical presence, companies wouldn't hesitate to hire foreign visas. I don't doubt that the ordinary person won't trust foreign attorneys, but these small/large firms won't have a problem outsourcing work, such as document review. Also, we won't be competing with only Navneet in Bangalore, we'll also be competing with highly educated foreigners from places like Europe.

I honestly believe that the ABA approving foreign schools could lead to the decimation of the legal market for lawyers.

*Disclaimer: I realize I'm biased because of tech background, and FWIW I'm also a foreigner myself.

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North
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Re: ABA to consider accrediting FOREIGN law schools

Postby North » Fri Aug 03, 2012 12:42 am

KevinP wrote:I work in the tech industry, and I've seen exactly how far companies are willing to go in order to cut labor costs. You'd be surprised at the how much of the poorly written code on critical software systems was written by cheap labor. I've seen my friends train their foreign visa replacements, and the companies justify the visas by claiming there isn't "enough qualified American labor." I've also seen how hard foreigners are willing to work and how much crap they are willing to put up with just so they don't lose their visas.

Considering the route that manufacturing, software development, etc. has followed, I think that the accreditation of foreign law schools will almost certainly cause a ton of legal jobs to be outsourced. And for jobs that require physical presence, companies wouldn't hesitate to hire foreign visas. I don't doubt that the ordinary person won't trust foreign attorneys, but these small/large firms won't have a problem outsourcing work, such as document review. Also, we won't be competing with only Navneet in Bangalore, we'll also be competing with highly educated foreigners from places like Europe.

I honestly believe that the ABA approving foreign schools could lead to the decimation of the legal market for lawyers.

*Disclaimer: I realize I'm biased because of tech background, and FWIW I'm also a foreigner myself.
This is the doomsday I had in mind and why this proposal really freaks me out. That this is even being considered makes going into to law -- a career path that, if pursued, is already loaded down with mind-boggling risk -- an objectively terrible decision for an American college graduate.

I still just can't believe that somebody somewhere thinks that this is a good idea.

flcath
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Re: ABA to consider accrediting FOREIGN law schools

Postby flcath » Fri Aug 03, 2012 7:41 pm

North wrote:
KevinP wrote:I work in the tech industry, and I've seen exactly how far companies are willing to go in order to cut labor costs. You'd be surprised at the how much of the poorly written code on critical software systems was written by cheap labor. I've seen my friends train their foreign visa replacements, and the companies justify the visas by claiming there isn't "enough qualified American labor." I've also seen how hard foreigners are willing to work and how much crap they are willing to put up with just so they don't lose their visas.

Considering the route that manufacturing, software development, etc. has followed, I think that the accreditation of foreign law schools will almost certainly cause a ton of legal jobs to be outsourced. And for jobs that require physical presence, companies wouldn't hesitate to hire foreign visas. I don't doubt that the ordinary person won't trust foreign attorneys, but these small/large firms won't have a problem outsourcing work, such as document review. Also, we won't be competing with only Navneet in Bangalore, we'll also be competing with highly educated foreigners from places like Europe.

I honestly believe that the ABA approving foreign schools could lead to the decimation of the legal market for lawyers.

*Disclaimer: I realize I'm biased because of tech background, and FWIW I'm also a foreigner myself.
This is the doomsday I had in mind and why this proposal really freaks me out. That this is even being considered makes going into to law -- a career path that, if pursued, is already loaded down with mind-boggling risk -- an objectively terrible decision for an American college graduate.

I still just can't believe that somebody somewhere thinks that this is a good idea.

Boomers already got to enjoy their America, their effortless post-graduation employment, their 2d year associate 50-hour work weeks, and their legal profession. Now it's fuck you and lol at your impotence to stop us.




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