More UC tuition increases?

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Tanicius
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Re: More UC tuition increases?

Postby Tanicius » Tue Jul 31, 2012 4:03 pm

zman wrote:
flem wrote:
zman wrote:I do. but just abolish the goverment loan to solve the problem. let the market determine price of tutions, right now it doesn't. Right now, the schoold charge WHATEVER they want because the goverment is GUARANTEEING to pay the school WHATEVER prices they want to charge.


We're in agreement, but this thing is such a cash flow source for the government they're not just going to take themselves out of it. At least with changing the USNews criteria it wouldn't incentivize it as much.

We're at a breaking point, though. The current system is unsustainable.



it's a bubble that will pop soon. However the main beneficiaries of this crony system are the universities, they get all this money and use it for means that have nothing to do with education.


They are using it for education but doing so indirectly because of market pressures. Most of the money goes straight into the university system to fund less profitable but still important things. Berkeley's graduate assembly is full of scientists and engineers that are pissed at the fact that their departments are #1 and #2 in the world and yet they have to clammer over one another to get just a fraction of the money the law school gets. What's not split up among non-law departments of the university goes back into the law school to keep it competitive, which is where higher professor salaries come in.

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glitter178
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Re: More UC tuition increases?

Postby glitter178 » Tue Jul 31, 2012 4:10 pm

joetheplumber wrote:I just checked UCLA's tuition fee and it went up 3K to 47K a year. Was 44K when I checked it like a few days ago. I didn't get any memo talking about the fee increase. Are all the other UC's getting increase. wtf


how else are they going to pay for that rat exterminator?

zman
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Re: More UC tuition increases?

Postby zman » Tue Jul 31, 2012 4:21 pm

Tanicius wrote:
zman wrote:
flem wrote:
zman wrote:I do. but just abolish the goverment loan to solve the problem. let the market determine price of tutions, right now it doesn't. Right now, the schoold charge WHATEVER they want because the goverment is GUARANTEEING to pay the school WHATEVER prices they want to charge.


We're in agreement, but this thing is such a cash flow source for the government they're not just going to take themselves out of it. At least with changing the USNews criteria it wouldn't incentivize it as much.

We're at a breaking point, though. The current system is unsustainable.



it's a bubble that will pop soon. However the main beneficiaries of this crony system are the universities, they get all this money and use it for means that have nothing to do with education.


They are using it for education but doing so indirectly because of market pressures. Most of the money goes straight into the university system to fund less profitable but still important things. Berkeley's graduate assembly is full of scientists and engineers that are pissed at the fact that their departments are #1 and #2 in the world and yet they have to clammer over one another to get just a fraction of the money the law school gets. What's not split up among non-law departments of the university goes back into the law school to keep it competitive, which is where higher professor salaries come in.


market pressures? There are none.. all they have to do is con enough kids to take the loans.. You can't have market forces in until you abolish guaranteed loans and stop subsidising the the schools.

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Tanicius
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Re: More UC tuition increases?

Postby Tanicius » Tue Jul 31, 2012 4:25 pm

zman wrote:
Tanicius wrote:
zman wrote:it's a bubble that will pop soon. However the main beneficiaries of this crony system are the universities, they get all this money and use it for means that have nothing to do with education.


They are using it for education but doing so indirectly because of market pressures. Most of the money goes straight into the university system to fund less profitable but still important things. Berkeley's graduate assembly is full of scientists and engineers that are pissed at the fact that their departments are #1 and #2 in the world and yet they have to clammer over one another to get just a fraction of the money the law school gets. What's not split up among non-law departments of the university goes back into the law school to keep it competitive, which is where higher professor salaries come in.


market pressures? There are none.. all they have to do is con enough kids to take the loans.. You can't have market forces in until you abolish guaranteed loans and stop subsidising the the schools.



Their tax funding keeps going down every year. They have a very real need to continue raising tuition. This isn't just a bunch of fat-cat professors and administrators raking in dough and sitting on it.

zman
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Re: More UC tuition increases?

Postby zman » Tue Jul 31, 2012 4:33 pm

Tanicius wrote:
zman wrote:
Tanicius wrote:
zman wrote:it's a bubble that will pop soon. However the main beneficiaries of this crony system are the universities, they get all this money and use it for means that have nothing to do with education.


They are using it for education but doing so indirectly because of market pressures. Most of the money goes straight into the university system to fund less profitable but still important things. Berkeley's graduate assembly is full of scientists and engineers that are pissed at the fact that their departments are #1 and #2 in the world and yet they have to clammer over one another to get just a fraction of the money the law school gets. What's not split up among non-law departments of the university goes back into the law school to keep it competitive, which is where higher professor salaries come in.


market pressures? There are none.. all they have to do is con enough kids to take the loans.. You can't have market forces in until you abolish guaranteed loans and stop subsidising the the schools.



Their tax funding keeps going down every year. They have a very real need to continue raising tuition. This isn't just a bunch of fat-cat professors and administrators raking in dough and sitting on it.


the fact that they are not getting as much money in tax revenue has nothing to do with why can increase tutions. Private schools never get anything in tax funding directly but they raise their tutions every year. You need to read my posts to really understand why tutions are raising. They could collapse overnight if you just do one little thing..

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Tanicius
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Re: More UC tuition increases?

Postby Tanicius » Tue Jul 31, 2012 4:40 pm

zman wrote:
Tanicius wrote:
Their tax funding keeps going down every year. They have a very real need to continue raising tuition. This isn't just a bunch of fat-cat professors and administrators raking in dough and sitting on it.


the fact that they are not getting as much money in tax revenue has nothing to do with why can increase tutions. Private schools never get anything in tax funding directly but they raise their tutions every year. You need to read my posts to really understand why tutions are raising. They could collapse overnight if you just do one little thing..



We're all perfectly capable of reading. Yes, we know. Nondischargable debt, blah blah blah. It's not the only reason this is happening. Do you think Berkeley wants to to be the most expensive law school in the world? There is more at play than administrative greed. Unlike the private institutions with which it is competing, it doesn't have the same kinds of donations streaming in. For a very long time the UC system has been able to rely on tax funding to keep costs for its students low, and that is now disappearing rapidly. The law schools, business schools, and medical schools are being used to subsidize the rest of the less profitable parts of the university that used to be able to rely on grants and tax revenue. UCLA's business school recently privatized itself to avoid this problem and guess what? It stopped raising tuition at such ridiculous rates because the rest of the UC system could no longer force it to.

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Renne Walker
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Re: More UC tuition increases?

Postby Renne Walker » Tue Jul 31, 2012 4:44 pm

Some of these tuitions just do not make sense. The tuition at NYLS (unemployment 39%) is only 2K less than NYU (unemployment 3.9%). What is up with that?

zman
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Re: More UC tuition increases?

Postby zman » Tue Jul 31, 2012 4:52 pm

Tanicius wrote:
zman wrote:
Tanicius wrote:
Their tax funding keeps going down every year. They have a very real need to continue raising tuition. This isn't just a bunch of fat-cat professors and administrators raking in dough and sitting on it.


the fact that they are not getting as much money in tax revenue has nothing to do with why can increase tutions. Private schools never get anything in tax funding directly but they raise their tutions every year. You need to read my posts to really understand why tutions are raising. They could collapse overnight if you just do one little thing..



We're all perfectly capable of reading. Yes, we know. Nondischargable debt, blah blah blah. It's not the only reason this is happening. Do you think Berkeley wants to to be the most expensive law school in the world? There is more at play than administrative greed. Unlike the private institutions with which it is competing, it doesn't have the same kinds of donations streaming in. For a very long time the UC system has been able to rely on tax funding to keep costs for its students low, and that is now disappearing rapidly. The law schools, business schools, and medical schools are being used to subsidize the rest of the less profitable parts of the university that used to be able to rely on grants and tax revenue. UCLA's business school recently privatized itself to avoid this problem and guess what? It stopped raising tuition at such ridiculous rates because the rest of the UC system could no longer force it to.


clearly you do not understand why tutions is so expensive. That's the only thing your little rant proved. Just answer one question. What allows schools to charge 20k,30k,40k,50k,60k per year?

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Tanicius
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Re: More UC tuition increases?

Postby Tanicius » Tue Jul 31, 2012 5:23 pm

zman wrote:
Tanicius wrote:
zman wrote:the fact that they are not getting as much money in tax revenue has nothing to do with why can increase tutions. Private schools never get anything in tax funding directly but they raise their tutions every year. You need to read my posts to really understand why tutions are raising. They could collapse overnight if you just do one little thing..



We're all perfectly capable of reading. Yes, we know. Nondischargable debt, blah blah blah. It's not the only reason this is happening. Do you think Berkeley wants to to be the most expensive law school in the world? There is more at play than administrative greed. Unlike the private institutions with which it is competing, it doesn't have the same kinds of donations streaming in. For a very long time the UC system has been able to rely on tax funding to keep costs for its students low, and that is now disappearing rapidly. The law schools, business schools, and medical schools are being used to subsidize the rest of the less profitable parts of the university that used to be able to rely on grants and tax revenue. UCLA's business school recently privatized itself to avoid this problem and guess what? It stopped raising tuition at such ridiculous rates because the rest of the UC system could no longer force it to.


clearly you do not understand why tutions is so expensive. That's the only thing your little rant proved. Just answer one question. What allows schools to charge 20k,30k,40k,50k,60k per year?


Holy crap dude. You're either not reading what I'm saying or you're trolling. Stop pretending anything you've said thus far is at all novel and get this through your head: YES, for third goddamn time, the fact that student loan debt is nondischargable will cause tuition to increase into perpetuity. HOWEVER, that is not unique to the UC system, and it's not a sufficient explanation as for why the UC system in particular has the most expensive law school in the country. The UC system lacks the access to resources of its private peers, and unlike its private peers, its more lucrative grad programs are being leeched in order to subsidize the rest of the university. This problem exists independently of the nondischargable debt problem.

zman
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Re: More UC tuition increases?

Postby zman » Tue Jul 31, 2012 5:34 pm

Tanicius wrote:
zman wrote:
Tanicius wrote:
zman wrote:the fact that they are not getting as much money in tax revenue has nothing to do with why can increase tutions. Private schools never get anything in tax funding directly but they raise their tutions every year. You need to read my posts to really understand why tutions are raising. They could collapse overnight if you just do one little thing..



We're all perfectly capable of reading. Yes, we know. Nondischargable debt, blah blah blah. It's not the only reason this is happening. Do you think Berkeley wants to to be the most expensive law school in the world? There is more at play than administrative greed. Unlike the private institutions with which it is competing, it doesn't have the same kinds of donations streaming in. For a very long time the UC system has been able to rely on tax funding to keep costs for its students low, and that is now disappearing rapidly. The law schools, business schools, and medical schools are being used to subsidize the rest of the less profitable parts of the university that used to be able to rely on grants and tax revenue. UCLA's business school recently privatized itself to avoid this problem and guess what? It stopped raising tuition at such ridiculous rates because the rest of the UC system could no longer force it to.


clearly you do not understand why tutions is so expensive. That's the only thing your little rant proved. Just answer one question. What allows schools to charge 20k,30k,40k,50k,60k per year?


Holy crap dude. You're either not reading what I'm saying or you're trolling. Stop pretending anything you've said thus far is at all novel and get this through your head: YES, for third goddamn time, the fact that student loan debt is nondischargable will cause tuition to increase into perpetuity. HOWEVER, that is not unique to the UC system, and it's not a sufficient explanation as for why the UC system in particular has the most expensive law school in the country. The UCsystem lacks the access to resources of its private peers, and unlike its private peers, its more lucrative grad programs are being leeched in order to subsidize the rest of the university. This problem exists independently of the nondischargable debt problem.



I'm sorry but you do NOT understand why tution is expensive. You use to be able to discharge debt and tutions were still rising. What allow student to get in that much debt in the first place? AFter all 95%++ of the poplation cannot afford these tutions..

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Tanicius
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Re: More UC tuition increases?

Postby Tanicius » Tue Jul 31, 2012 5:39 pm

zman wrote:[quote="TaniciusI'm sorry but you do NOT understand why tution is expensive. You use to be able to discharge debt and tutions were still rising. What allow student to get in that much debt in the first place? AFter all 95%++ of the poplation cannot afford these tutions..


Government guarantees, nondischargable debt, whatever. Neither one is a sufficient explanation for why California's system in particular is the most expensive. Absence of previously relied upon tax revenue and graduate programs being used to subsidize the rest of the university are problems in and of themselves and they will continue to exist either way.

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Re: More UC tuition increases?

Postby zman » Tue Jul 31, 2012 5:56 pm

Tanicius wrote:
zman wrote:[quote="TaniciusI'm sorry but you do NOT understand why tution is expensive. You use to be able to discharge debt and tutions were still rising. What allow student to get in that much debt in the first place? AFter all 95%++ of the poplation cannot afford these tutions..


Government guarantees, nondischargable debt, whatever. Neither one is a sufficient explanation for why California's system in particular is the most expensive. Absence of previously relied upon tax revenue and graduate programs being used to subsidize the rest of the university are problems in and of themselves and they will continue to exist either way.


of course it is a "sufficient explanation". like I said schools can charge WHATEVER they want because the goverment will GUARANTEE loans on WHATEVER price they want to charge. take the goverment guarantee out and you will see a massive collapse in tutions. I'm talking about going from 20k,30k,40k,50k to 2k,3k,4k,5k. Wouldn't be great for students? AFter all just because you spend more money on education doesnt mean you're getting better education, it just means you're getting more expensive education.

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SaintsTheMetal
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Re: More UC tuition increases?

Postby SaintsTheMetal » Tue Jul 31, 2012 5:57 pm

zman wrote:of course it is a "sufficient explanation". like I said schools can charge WHATEVER they want because the goverment will GUARANTEE loans on WHATEVER price they want to charge. take the goverment guarantee out and you will see a massive collapse in tutions. I'm talking about going from 20k,30k,40k,50k to 2k,3k,4k,5k. Wouldn't be great for students? AFter all just because you spend more money on education doesnt mean you're getting better education, it just means you're getting more expensive education.


confirmed for idiot or troll

zman
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Re: More UC tuition increases?

Postby zman » Tue Jul 31, 2012 6:01 pm

SaintsTheMetal wrote:
zman wrote:of course it is a "sufficient explanation". like I said schools can charge WHATEVER they want because the goverment will GUARANTEE loans on WHATEVER price they want to charge. take the goverment guarantee out and you will see a massive collapse in tutions. I'm talking about going from 20k,30k,40k,50k to 2k,3k,4k,5k. Wouldn't be great for students? AFter all just because you spend more money on education doesnt mean you're getting better education, it just means you're getting more expensive education.


confirmed for idiot or troll


Bull$hit. You sound like a troll for the corrupt UC system. You can't accept the reality as to why tutions are expensive or you simply do not understand it..

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Tanicius
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Re: More UC tuition increases?

Postby Tanicius » Tue Jul 31, 2012 6:11 pm

zman wrote:
SaintsTheMetal wrote:
zman wrote:of course it is a "sufficient explanation". like I said schools can charge WHATEVER they want because the goverment will GUARANTEE loans on WHATEVER price they want to charge. take the goverment guarantee out and you will see a massive collapse in tutions. I'm talking about going from 20k,30k,40k,50k to 2k,3k,4k,5k. Wouldn't be great for students? AFter all just because you spend more money on education doesnt mean you're getting better education, it just means you're getting more expensive education.


confirmed for idiot or troll


Bull$hit. You sound like a troll for the corrupt UC system. You can't accept the reality as to why tutions are expensive or you simply do not understand it..



Nothing you have mentioned has anything to do with the UC system moreso than any other university in America. You're looking at two glasses of water, one with more water than the other, and saying it's more full than the other because water exists. It's not a complete explanation. Why is Boalt specifically more expensive than Columbia, NYU, Harvard, Stanford, Cornell, UPenn, and Georgetown?

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Re: More UC tuition increases?

Postby zman » Tue Jul 31, 2012 6:26 pm

Tanicius wrote:
zman wrote:
SaintsTheMetal wrote:
zman wrote:of course it is a "sufficient explanation". like I said schools can charge WHATEVER they want because the goverment will GUARANTEE loans on WHATEVER price they want to charge. take the goverment guarantee out and you will see a massive collapse in tutions. I'm talking about going from 20k,30k,40k,50k to 2k,3k,4k,5k. Wouldn't be great for students? AFter all just because you spend more money on education doesnt mean you're getting better education, it just means you're getting more expensive education.


confirmed for idiot or troll


Bull$hit. You sound like a troll for the corrupt UC system. You can't accept the reality as to why tutions are expensive or you simply do not understand it..



Nothing you have mentioned has anything to do with the UC system moreso than any other university in America. You're looking at two glasses of water, one with more water than the other, and saying it's more full than the other because water exists. It's not a complete explanation. Why is Boalt specifically more expensive than Columbia, NYU, Harvard, Stanford, Cornell, UPenn, and Georgetown?


I agree with the first sentence. Now as to why boalt is more expensive? WHy not?? There is no market forces governing tution costs.. It's purely up to the decision makers at berkeley to decide the cost.. Maybe they think they are better than those schools, go ask them. like you said they want to subsidy other programs. There can be many reasons but it is competely irrelevant. IF you abolish goverment guaranteed loans, tutions will inevitable collapse.

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Renne Walker
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Re: More UC tuition increases?

Postby Renne Walker » Tue Jul 31, 2012 6:43 pm

zman wrote:IF you abolish goverment guaranteed loans, tutions will inevitable collapse.

Abolish is too over the top but an adjustment is certainly necessary. If loans only covered 50% of the tuition (tuitions would drop significantly). Or, if only X% of the loan was subject to bankruptcy (probably too difficult to enact). But yes, as discussed numerous times, the government $$ handout is largely responsible for the sharp tuition increases.

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Tanicius
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Re: More UC tuition increases?

Postby Tanicius » Tue Jul 31, 2012 6:43 pm

zman wrote:
Tanicius wrote:Nothing you have mentioned has anything to do with the UC system moreso than any other university in America. You're looking at two glasses of water, one with more water than the other, and saying it's more full than the other because water exists. It's not a complete explanation. Why is Boalt specifically more expensive than Columbia, NYU, Harvard, Stanford, Cornell, UPenn, and Georgetown?


I agree with the first sentence. Now as to why boalt is more expensive? WHy not?? There is no market forces governing tution costs.. It's purely up to the decision makers at berkeley to decide the cost.. Maybe they think they are better than those schools, go ask them.


There's no need to ask them. They've stated multiple times in dozens of emails the exact rationale for every tuition increase in the past 18+ months I've been on their listserv. It's not because of greed and a desire to take advantage of people or any likewise "because they can" explanation. It's because of market and political pressures outside of their control.

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splitbrain
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Re: More UC tuition increases?

Postby splitbrain » Wed Aug 01, 2012 11:52 am

Tanicius wrote:
zman wrote:
Tanicius wrote:Nothing you have mentioned has anything to do with the UC system moreso than any other university in America. You're looking at two glasses of water, one with more water than the other, and saying it's more full than the other because water exists. It's not a complete explanation. Why is Boalt specifically more expensive than Columbia, NYU, Harvard, Stanford, Cornell, UPenn, and Georgetown?


I agree with the first sentence. Now as to why boalt is more expensive? WHy not?? There is no market forces governing tution costs.. It's purely up to the decision makers at berkeley to decide the cost.. Maybe they think they are better than those schools, go ask them.


There's no need to ask them. They've stated multiple times in dozens of emails the exact rationale for every tuition increase in the past 18+ months I've been on their listserv. It's not because of greed and a desire to take advantage of people or any likewise "because they can" explanation. It's because of market and political pressures outside of their control.

You're talking to a conspiracy troll, here. Regardless of there being a bigger picture, this troll is just going to keep pushing it back to his/her baseless opinion that UC admins are evil corrupt satanists out to steal all your moneyz.

Sidenote: "tution"....really?




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