Why law school over MBA?

(Applications Advice, Letters of Recommendation . . . )
User avatar
rayiner
Posts: 6184
Joined: Thu Dec 11, 2008 11:43 am

Re: Why law school over MBA?

Postby rayiner » Wed Aug 01, 2012 11:12 pm

hblake wrote:
rayiner wrote:So what. That doesn't change the fact that those aren't sciences.


So what.


You said they were sciences. I was correcting you.

hblake
Posts: 44
Joined: Sun Jul 15, 2012 9:31 am

Re: Why law school over MBA?

Postby hblake » Wed Aug 01, 2012 11:36 pm

rayiner wrote:You said they were sciences. I was correcting you.


Well I didn't take offense or try to respond directly because you could see what the dictionary says for yourself about your word and how it relates to my words. For example, psychology is defined in one dictionary as "the science of the mind or of mental states and processes." Or "the science of human and animal behavior."

If by "science" you meant "skill or technique," as in "I've got it down to a science," maybe you'd be right.

User avatar
rayiner
Posts: 6184
Joined: Thu Dec 11, 2008 11:43 am

Re: Why law school over MBA?

Postby rayiner » Wed Aug 01, 2012 11:43 pm

hblake wrote:
rayiner wrote:You said they were sciences. I was correcting you.


Well I didn't take offense or try to respond directly because you could see what the dictionary says for yourself about your word and how it relates to my words. For example, psychology is defined in one dictionary as "the science of the mind or of mental states and processes." Or "the science of human and animal behavior."

If by "science" you meant "skill or technique," as in "I've got it down to a science," maybe you'd be right.


The dictionary is not written by scientists. No wonder it uses the word "science" incorrectly.

hblake
Posts: 44
Joined: Sun Jul 15, 2012 9:31 am

Re: Why law school over MBA?

Postby hblake » Wed Aug 01, 2012 11:45 pm

rayiner wrote:The dictionary is not written by scientists.


You're funny. Yes it is.

User avatar
Icculus
Posts: 1421
Joined: Tue Mar 02, 2010 12:02 am

Re: Why law school over MBA?

Postby Icculus » Wed Aug 01, 2012 11:46 pm

rayiner wrote:
hblake wrote:
rayiner wrote:You said they were sciences. I was correcting you.


Well I didn't take offense or try to respond directly because you could see what the dictionary says for yourself about your word and how it relates to my words. For example, psychology is defined in one dictionary as "the science of the mind or of mental states and processes." Or "the science of human and animal behavior."

If by "science" you meant "skill or technique," as in "I've got it down to a science," maybe you'd be right.


The dictionary is not written by scientists. No wonder it uses the word "science" incorrectly.


But Rayiner, I'm a scientist as well. My UG major was Political Science, that counts, right?

User avatar
Icculus
Posts: 1421
Joined: Tue Mar 02, 2010 12:02 am

Re: Why law school over MBA?

Postby Icculus » Wed Aug 01, 2012 11:46 pm

hblake wrote:
rayiner wrote:The dictionary is not written by scientists.


You're funny. Yes it is.


This is a joke, right?

hblake
Posts: 44
Joined: Sun Jul 15, 2012 9:31 am

Re: Why law school over MBA?

Postby hblake » Wed Aug 01, 2012 11:49 pm

Icculus wrote:This is a joke, right?

Quick.

User avatar
Samara
Posts: 3245
Joined: Wed May 11, 2011 4:26 pm

Re: Why law school over MBA?

Postby Samara » Wed Aug 01, 2012 11:50 pm

Icculus wrote:
hblake wrote:
rayiner wrote:The dictionary is not written by scientists.


You're funny. Yes it is.


This is a joke, right?

But, if linguists define themselves as scientists, and they write the dictionary, then it must be that they are indeed scientists because the dictionary is written to precisely define words along technical terms, not provide general understanding of a word's meaning. My logic is infallible!

clee33
Posts: 63
Joined: Tue Jun 21, 2011 12:29 am

Re: Why law school over MBA?

Postby clee33 » Thu Aug 02, 2012 3:35 am

dingbat wrote:If they had a genuine interest in, for example, history, they'd study history, rather than the all-encompassing and meaningless "liberal arts"


If history isn't a liberal art than what is? Is there actually a major called "liberal arts" at some UGs?

User avatar
dingbat
Posts: 4976
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2012 9:12 pm

Re: Why law school over MBA?

Postby dingbat » Thu Aug 02, 2012 3:53 am

clee33 wrote:
dingbat wrote:If they had a genuine interest in, for example, history, they'd study history, rather than the all-encompassing and meaningless "liberal arts"


If history isn't a liberal art than what is? Is there actually a major called "liberal arts" at some UGs?

sorry. This stems from my unfamiliarity with the US education system. please ignore that post

jmjm
Posts: 329
Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2011 1:59 am

Re: Why law school over MBA?

Postby jmjm » Thu Aug 02, 2012 11:17 pm

westinghouse60 wrote:
crazi4law wrote:I may be generalizing here, but most people on this forum want to go to a top law school and work at a BigLaw firm, mainly because of the money and the prestige.

But going to a top MBA program also offers a plethora of career opportunities, and is much more flexible and compatible than a JD. Everyone knows that BigLaw is boring as hell, so why not just try for a top MBA and get into something like banking instead (somewhat better pay, somewhat more interesting)?


Getting into a top MBA requires several years of really good WE, which in turn would have required going to a top UG and getting a finance/math/econ etc degree instead of a worthless liberal arts degree. So, for a lot of people (like myself) it's too late to try to go that route.


MBA admission success is much more driven by how much of future success an applicant is perceived to be, and therefore, depends on a number of factors. Some of these factors may even include how "hot" the company you work for is, or how prestigious your undergrad is, or your leadership stories at your work or life (as most of these improve the applicant's attractiveness in the corporate america). Thus, it is very subjective -- applicants spend huge amount of time trying to craft essay and the admission decision is much more of a crapshoot at top schools. Gmat does not amount for much as long as it is above a certain threshold and your soft skills and "people skills" count for much more.

There are lot of people with liberal arts degrees at the top MBA programs and many of them come to b-schools from various industries, such as consulting at mckinsey, bain, bcg etc.

On the other hand, law school admission process is very much numbers-driven. Lsat and gpa is all that matters for the most part.

User avatar
SuperCerealBrah
Posts: 244
Joined: Sun Jul 01, 2012 6:34 pm

Re: Why law school over MBA?

Postby SuperCerealBrah » Thu Aug 02, 2012 11:39 pm

rayiner wrote:
hblake wrote:
rayiner wrote:So what. That doesn't change the fact that those aren't sciences.


So what.


You said they were sciences. I was correcting you.




How is psychology not a science? Just because it isn't as hard as engineering? I don't think difficulty counts towards what we define as science.

User avatar
rayiner
Posts: 6184
Joined: Thu Dec 11, 2008 11:43 am

Re: Why law school over MBA?

Postby rayiner » Thu Aug 02, 2012 11:41 pm

SuperCerealBrah wrote:
rayiner wrote:
hblake wrote:
rayiner wrote:So what. That doesn't change the fact that those aren't sciences.


So what.


You said they were sciences. I was correcting you.




How is psychology not a science? Just because it isn't as hard as engineering? I don't think difficulty counts towards what we define as science.


Real sciences have systematic theoretical frameworks that are validated by rigorous controlled experiments. They have non-trivial predictive power. Psychology is a set of observations connected by hand-wavy theories.
Last edited by rayiner on Thu Aug 02, 2012 11:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
SuperCerealBrah
Posts: 244
Joined: Sun Jul 01, 2012 6:34 pm

Re: Why law school over MBA?

Postby SuperCerealBrah » Thu Aug 02, 2012 11:46 pm

I didn't know psychology had a lack of rigorous control in experiments. I guess it depends on how we are defining control and what the experiment is. I mean sure, there are things you can't control, but pretty much all science has that underlying problem to some extent. I guess we are including a lot of neuroscience in this as well?

User avatar
rayiner
Posts: 6184
Joined: Thu Dec 11, 2008 11:43 am

Re: Why law school over MBA?

Postby rayiner » Thu Aug 02, 2012 11:53 pm

SuperCerealBrah wrote:I didn't know psychology had a lack of rigorous control in experiments. I guess it depends on how we are defining control and what the experiment is. I mean sure, there are things you can't control, but pretty much all science has that underlying problem to some extent. I guess we are including a lot of neuroscience in this as well?


Not including neuroscience, which does have formal theoretical foundations and sufficiently rigorous experiments. Like most of biology, it's at the edge of "real science" but it is real science for the most part.

User avatar
chem
Posts: 867
Joined: Thu Mar 03, 2011 8:14 pm

Re: Why law school over MBA?

Postby chem » Fri Aug 03, 2012 12:16 am

rayiner wrote:
SuperCerealBrah wrote:I didn't know psychology had a lack of rigorous control in experiments. I guess it depends on how we are defining control and what the experiment is. I mean sure, there are things you can't control, but pretty much all science has that underlying problem to some extent. I guess we are including a lot of neuroscience in this as well?


Not including neuroscience, which does have formal theoretical foundations and sufficiently rigorous experiments. Like most of biology, it's at the edge of "real science" but it is real science for the most part.


Hard sciences are like obscenities, you know it when you see it

User avatar
BruceWayne
Posts: 2032
Joined: Sat Aug 14, 2010 9:36 pm

Re: Why law school over MBA?

Postby BruceWayne » Fri Aug 03, 2012 12:21 am

I think people are being to hard on biology. Genetics seems pretty "hard" to me. But maybe that's not considered a part of biology to some people.

jmjm
Posts: 329
Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2011 1:59 am

Re: Why law school over MBA?

Postby jmjm » Fri Aug 03, 2012 12:38 am

dingbat wrote:
crazi4law wrote:If you get into a top MBA program, it won't be too hard to get into ibanking from there.
:roll:
crazi4law wrote:
dingbat wrote:Salaries in IBanking start lower than biglaw and there's no lockstep.
It is far riskier to go into banking than biglaw (and that's not accounting for the difference in nature if the work and the lifestyle)

Associate salaries for ibanking (after you get an MBA) are similar to biglaw, and grows exponentially as you advance within the firm.

no, it's not. Average salary is barely $100k (LinkRemoved)


Glassdoor page includes all sorts of analyst/associate salaries into its stats. You can see that low-end of associate is only 54K. I doubt that is correct. An engineering grad working straight out of college in a tech company makes more than that.

If you want to look at post-mba salaries at ibanks then look at b-school placement pages. You'd see base salaries of 130K with as much as 40% other compensation added to it.

How are the post-jd salaries for biglaw and what is the progression of it?

joeshan520, your 50-60k figure is only after undergrad, correct. What position at biglaw makes so less?

User avatar
dingbat
Posts: 4976
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2012 9:12 pm

Re: Why law school over MBA?

Postby dingbat » Fri Aug 03, 2012 7:53 am

jmjm wrote:
dingbat wrote:
crazi4law wrote:If you get into a top MBA program, it won't be too hard to get into ibanking from there.
:roll:
crazi4law wrote:
dingbat wrote:Salaries in IBanking start lower than biglaw and there's no lockstep.
It is far riskier to go into banking than biglaw (and that's not accounting for the difference in nature if the work and the lifestyle)

Associate salaries for ibanking (after you get an MBA) are similar to biglaw, and grows exponentially as you advance within the firm.

no, it's not. Average salary is barely $100k (LinkRemoved)


Glassdoor page includes all sorts of analyst/associate salaries into its stats. You can see that low-end of associate is only 54K. I doubt that is correct. An engineering grad working straight out of college in a tech company makes more than that.

If you want to look at post-mba salaries at ibanks then look at b-school placement pages. You'd see base salaries of 130K with as much as 40% other compensation added to it.

How are the post-jd salaries for biglaw and what is the progression of it?

joeshan520, your 50-60k figure is only after undergrad, correct. What position at biglaw makes so less?

I can tell you that there are plenty of associates who don't make 6 figures. An associate making only $54k is plausible to me in a smaller market. I know one bulge bracket firm that was moving an entire department out of the NY market so they could pay a much lower salary.
Some MBA grads start at $130k, with up to $50k bonus, just as some JD grads start at 160k with up to $45k bonus. (do the math and see which is better). I believe that ITE a JD graduating from T14 is a lot more likely to get that high salary than an MBA graduating from an M7.
On top of that, there is no lockstep in finance. If you perform you might move up the ranks, but, there's just as good a chance that you never get a real raise.

User avatar
rayiner
Posts: 6184
Joined: Thu Dec 11, 2008 11:43 am

Re: Why law school over MBA?

Postby rayiner » Fri Aug 03, 2012 11:12 am

Look at the 2011 employment stats of an M7 business school: http://www.kellogg.northwestern.edu/car ... ss+Profile

Average salary $115k. 18% of the class went into finance, which includes commercial banking and things that are much less well-paying than the Goldman Sachs associate jobs that people tend to think of when they think finance. I'd guess substantially less than 10% of the class got finance jobs that pay substantially more than what a JD would earn.

jmjm
Posts: 329
Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2011 1:59 am

Re: Why law school over MBA?

Postby jmjm » Fri Aug 03, 2012 11:18 am

dingbat wrote:
jmjm wrote:Glassdoor page includes all sorts of analyst/associate salaries into its stats. You can see that low-end of associate is only 54K. I doubt that is correct. An engineering grad working straight out of college in a tech company makes more than that.

If you want to look at post-mba salaries at ibanks then look at b-school placement pages. You'd see base salaries of 130K with as much as 40% other compensation added to it.

How are the post-jd salaries for biglaw and what is the progression of it?

joeshan520, your 50-60k figure is only after undergrad, correct. What position at biglaw makes so less?

I can tell you that there are plenty of associates who don't make 6 figures. An associate making only $54k is plausible to me in a smaller market. I know one bulge bracket firm that was moving an entire department out of the NY market so they could pay a much lower salary.
Some MBA grads start at $130k, with up to $50k bonus, just as some JD grads start at 160k with up to $45k bonus. (do the math and see which is better). I believe that ITE a JD graduating from T14 is a lot more likely to get that high salary than an MBA graduating from an M7.
On top of that, there is no lockstep in finance. If you perform you might move up the ranks, but, there's just as good a chance that you never get a real raise.


$54K after a jd from a T14 is lower than entry salary after engineering BS. Is one still expected to put in as long hours as lawyers typically do?

Where is the salary data for JD? There are plenty of MBA grads who grads who start higher than $130K, which is close to median salary.

The placement record for financial sector at HBS (from its webpage) shows that about 25% of financial service jobs pay more than $150K.

Class of 2012 Salary by Industry Destinations % 25th % Base Salary Median Base Salary 75th % Base Salary Median Signing Bonus % Receiving Signing Bonus Median Other G'teed Comp** % Receiving Other G'teed Comp
Financial Services 35% $100,000 $125,000 $150,000 $40,000 62% $96,000 31%

User avatar
TrialLawyer16
Posts: 287
Joined: Tue Aug 09, 2011 5:43 pm

Re: Why law school over MBA?

Postby TrialLawyer16 » Fri Aug 03, 2012 11:22 am

^^Dingbat/Rayiner - so if all of this is true. Why do we so often hear the remark on TLS that "if you wanted to get rich you should have gone into finance and not biglaw"? Is that just hyperbole and the typical TLS "grass is greener" attitude?

User avatar
smaug_
Posts: 2195
Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2011 5:06 pm

Re: Why law school over MBA?

Postby smaug_ » Fri Aug 03, 2012 11:33 am

TrialLawyer16 wrote:^^Dingbat/Rayiner - so if all of this is true. Why do we so often hear the remark on TLS that "if you wanted to get rich you should have gone into finance and not biglaw"? Is that just hyperbole and the typical TLS "grass is greener" attitude?


When people say that, aren't they talking about the kinds of finance jobs one can get out of UG? (assuming the right school/grades, which is pretty rare)

jmjm
Posts: 329
Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2011 1:59 am

Re: Why law school over MBA?

Postby jmjm » Fri Aug 03, 2012 11:53 am

Harvard's b school employment data (post-MBA)
http://www.hbs.edu/recruiting/mba/data- ... stics.html
Last edited by jmjm on Fri Aug 03, 2012 9:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
smaug_
Posts: 2195
Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2011 5:06 pm

Re: Why law school over MBA?

Postby smaug_ » Fri Aug 03, 2012 11:55 am

jmjm wrote:
hibiki wrote:
TrialLawyer16 wrote:^^Dingbat/Rayiner - so if all of this is true. Why do we so often hear the remark on TLS that "if you wanted to get rich you should have gone into finance and not biglaw"? Is that just hyperbole and the typical TLS "grass is greener" attitude?


When people say that, aren't they talking about the kinds of finance jobs one can get out of UG? (assuming the right school/grades, which is pretty rare)


Harvard's b school employment data.
http://www.hbs.edu/recruiting/mba/data- ... stics.html


Is this directed at me? What does that have to do with the straight out of UG folks who avoid the risk/reward cycle altogether?




Return to “Law School Admissions Forum”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Yahoo [Bot] and 4 guests