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 Post subject: Re: Rutgers just admitted me without my applying
PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2012 7:06 pm 
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InGoodFaith wrote:
You created an account just to say that? Badass, bro.


You have to respect this:

Quote:
2)School - The Nnew building, across the street from the federal courthouse, its pretty. Having said that, the expense of big, uselessly "pretty" new buildings is part of the fundamental problem of spiralling costs at law schools.


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 Post subject: Re: Rutgers just admitted me without my applying
PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2012 12:28 pm 
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sunynp wrote:
Nova wrote:
doppelganger wrote:

Unless I'm missing something, staying in the top 40% and maintaining 3.0< doesn't seem like an impossible standard to adhere to.


Its still more likely you lose it. Most credible schools dont have stttips like that.

Schools that have stips on scholarships give them to more people than can keep them. They deliberately give scholarships knowing that some number of students will lose them. They know that most people will continue on after they have lost the scholarship.

If they intend for you to have the scholarship all three years, get them to drop the stipulation.


Yes, I understand that not everyone will be able to maintain those stips, but they are still a lot less rigid than others I've seen. That being said, does anyone know how tight their curve is or where I could get this information? Also, any tips on negotiating to getting the stips removed? I tried this before with a different school and was unsuccessful.


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 Post subject: Re: Rutgers just admitted me without my applying
PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2012 10:20 am 
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doppelganger wrote:
sunynp wrote:
Nova wrote:
doppelganger wrote:

Unless I'm missing something, staying in the top 40% and maintaining 3.0< doesn't seem like an impossible standard to adhere to.


Its still more likely you lose it. Most credible schools dont have stttips like that.

Schools that have stips on scholarships give them to more people than can keep them. They deliberately give scholarships knowing that some number of students will lose them. They know that most people will continue on after they have lost the scholarship.

If they intend for you to have the scholarship all three years, get them to drop the stipulation.


Yes, I understand that not everyone will be able to maintain those stips, but they are still a lot less rigid than others I've seen. That being said, does anyone know how tight their curve is or where I could get this information? Also, any tips on negotiating to getting the stips removed? I tried this before with a different school and was unsuccessful.


Anyone willing to share what these unsolicited offers from Camden are saying by way of employment outcomes for graduates? Particularly interested in knowing what they now say about starting salaries for private sector grads. Feel free to PM me as well... thanks.


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 Post subject: Re: Rutgers just admitted me without my applying
PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2012 10:52 am 
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observationalist wrote:
Anyone willing to share what these unsolicited offers from Camden are saying by way of employment outcomes for graduates? Particularly interested in knowing what they now say about starting salaries for private sector grads. Feel free to PM me as well... thanks.


Mine didn't say anything about employment outcomes. Probably to reduce liability. It just talked about how good the faculty were.


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 Post subject: Re: Rutgers just admitted me without my applying
PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2012 12:12 pm 
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More than a week ago ITLSS pointed out that the reported debt numbers for Rutgers-Camden law graduates didn't appear to make any sense. Within a few hours, with the help of internet crowd-sourcing, it became clear what had happened: Rutgers-Camden was reporting only the law school debt incurred by its graduating class in the class's third year, rather than, as it was required to by the ABA, over the course of attending the school. (It also became evident that Georgia State and Barry -- at least -- were making the same "mistake." The numbers for Southern and Texas Southern are probably wrong in the same way).

On Monday, Rutgers' Dean Rayman Solomon sent an email to the school's students, purporting to explain what had happened. Here is the relevant portion:

The third post occurred [this is a reference to the first ITLSS post linked above] on July 18th and questioned our reported number for average indebtedness at graduation. The reported number was incorrect. Here is the sequence of events: each year the ABA asks for information about student indebtedness. The number for average indebtedness was one that until this year had not been publicly reported - it was reported to the ABA and they did not reprint it or disclose it. Our process for determining that number is that one of our administrative staff members gets the data from the University's financial aid office and fills out the answer to the question. The staff person interpreted the question as asking what the average debt was for a graduating 3L for the third year --- not the total three-year indebtedness. This year US News asked for the data and we gave them what we had given the ABA. US News then did a ranking on least and most expensive schools. On the day the ranking came out I was informed by a fellow dean that we, along with a number of schools, had incorrectly interpreted the question. I immediately informed the ABA of our mistake. The ABA sent out an email to all schools and asked each to verify this number as there were enough schools that had the same problem to require everyone to recheck the information. We worked with financial aid to generate the accurate number, which was more difficult than one might imagine, as it required tracing students who had started in different years and taking out the undergraduate debt of Rutgers graduates. As soon as we could complete the process we reported to the ABA our accurate number. When US News requested the corrected number I supplied it to them. The ABA was completely satisfied that there was no intentional misconduct on our part. However, I sign the ABA questionnaire certification, and I take full responsibility for this mistake.

Dean Solomon is claiming that he knew nothing about this "mistake" (which the law school he's been running since 1998 has committed every year since at least 2008 ) until March, 2012, when a helpful fellow dean informed him of it. Prior to this year, according to Dean Solomon, only the ABA had this information "and they did not reprint it or disclose it." So Rutgers-Camden did not benefit from the misreported information, and indeed remained unaware of the mistake until this March.

I will assume that Dean Solomon's statement that another dean contacted him is true. Every other assertion in the previous paragraph is provably false. The facts are these:

(1) US News has been asking law schools for graduating class debt data since at least the graduating class of 2008. It has been publishing this data on the internet, where any interested party has been able to examine it. (Note that US News gets this data directly from law schools themselves, not from the ABA).

(2) In March of 2011 US News ran a story entitled "Ten Law Degrees With Most Financial Value at Graduation." This story ranked Rutgers-Camden as providing its graduates with the third-most valuable law degree in the country, measured in terms of the ratio between the purported average law school debt of its graduates and their purported median private sector starting salary.

(3) In November of 2011, the National Jurist ran a story on "Best Value Law Schools," giving Rutgers-Camden a grade of A- for offering "an affordable education with great job prospects." Like the March 2011 US News story, this story cited the school's remarkably low graduate debt totals.

(4) On November 15, 2011, Rutgers' Media Relations Office distributed a press release to the local and national media, quoting from and linking to both the US News and National Jurist stories ranking Rutgers-Camden as one of the most affordable and best value law schools in the nation. This press release quotes Dean Solomon regarding the US News and National Jurist affordability/best-value rankings:

“These rankings, while gratifying, represent just a glimpse into the Rutgers–Camden law school experience,” says Rayman Solomon, dean of the Rutgers School of Law–Camden. “Our curriculum and faculty prepare our students for success at every level of the profession. In addition to the success of our graduates in the private sector, the Rutgers–Camden law school also prepares them for success in the judiciary and in the public interest sector.
So, in direct contradiction to what he asserted in Monday's e-mail to his students, Dean Solomon is on record as having known since at least November of last year that US News publishes law graduate debt rankings, and that his school does extraordinarily well in those rankings.

Of course it is utterly fantastic to imagine that Dean Solomon hasn't been perfectly well aware for several years that Rutgers-Camden has been reporting phony debt numbers to both the ABA and US News since at least 2008. He has been the dean of the school for 14 years; it's beyond incredible to think he's been under the impression that Rutgers-Camden graduates actually graduate with debt loads one third as large as those carried by graduates of his school's most direct competitors for potential students, i.e., Rutgers-Newark and Temple.

What is also beyond incredible is that Dean Solomon thinks it's a good idea to continue to lie so shamelessly. I am sincerely curious if the ABA is going to do anything about the fact that Dean Solomon is lying to it about when he discovered this mistake.

I'm also curious regarding whether Bob Morse is going to do anything about the fact that as of last Friday Dean Solomon had done nothing to inform US News regarding the radically incorrect numbers US News has been publishing regarding Rutgers since at least 2008 -- numbers which by his own admission he has known for at least four months were completely wrong, although I'm fairly confident the internal communications of Rutgers University document that he has known this for much longer (perhaps some enterprising lawyer will try to find out exactly how long).

Also, it would be nice to know when US News is going to bestir itself to correct its webpage reporting average graduate debt, since it now apparently has the correct figure for 2011 from Rutgers (a figure which Dean Solomon omits to mention in his phony mea culpa to his students). In addition, inquiring minds would like to know if US News has bothered to contact Georgia State and Barry, if those schools haven't sent corrections to the publication themselves. (Needless to say the ABA ought to be looking into these "mistakes" as well).

A final note of incredulity: I'm well aware a lot of people will still somehow find a way to characterize all this as no big deal. The fact that a law school dean has been lying to the ABA for years about a number his school is required to report to the school's accrediting organization will be treated as somehow not important. The fact that a law school dean has provably known since last year that national publications were running stories publicizing his school on the basis of phony numbers the school has transmitted to the ABA, and he did nothing to correct the public record, will be rationalized away as insignificant ("Anybody who is naive enough to believe those kinds of stories deserves what they get"). The fact that this dean continues even now to repeat these lies to his own students is of no consequence. By now these "kids" should know they're pretty much screwed, so what's one more lie on top of all the others?

Destroying the capacity for outrage is in some ways the worst crime these institutions commit.

http://insidethelawschoolscam.blogspot. ... lomon.html


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 Post subject: Re: Rutgers just admitted me without my applying
PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2012 12:26 pm 
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Yowza

Edit: I'm not going to lie. As a RU-C student, I was utterly confused when I saw those debt numbers. I thought I was doing something terribly wrong when the average entire debt was pretty much what I took out in 1 year.


Last edited by drmguy on Thu Jul 26, 2012 12:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Rutgers just admitted me without my applying
PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2012 12:29 pm 
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There is so much fail going on at Rutgers-Camden. I wonder if they'll be gone entirely in 3-4 years.


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 Post subject: Re: Rutgers just admitted me without my applying
PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2012 12:35 pm 
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mr.hands wrote:
There is so much fail going on at Rutgers-Camden. I wonder if they'll be gone entirely in 3-4 years.


I know a lot of people have been pontificating on this recently, but there's absolutely no chance of this happening, especially now that RU-C is directly (read: financially) a part of the main RU-NB campus. The Rutgers brand is too strong, and NJ legislators (Republicans and Democrats alike) care too much about their state's higher education to allow one of their two public in state law schools to fail.


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 Post subject: Re: Rutgers just admitted me without my applying
PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2012 12:52 pm 
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InGoodFaith wrote:
mr.hands wrote:
There is so much fail going on at Rutgers-Camden. I wonder if they'll be gone entirely in 3-4 years.


I know a lot of people have been pontificating on this recently, but there's absolutely no chance of this happening, especially now that RU-C is directly (read: financially) a part of the main RU-NB campus. The Rutgers brand is too strong, and NJ legislators (Republicans and Democrats alike) care too much about their state's higher education to allow one of their two public in state law schools to fail.


They won't let the Rutger's institution fail, i agree. Individual campuses aren't insulated necessarily, especially considering the number of full scholarships Camden is giving out. Frankly, I don't know how they can afford to keep this up.


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 Post subject: Re: Rutgers just admitted me without my applying
PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2012 12:54 pm 
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Last edited by 20130312 on Tue Feb 19, 2013 9:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Rutgers just admitted me without my applying
PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2012 1:18 pm 
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InGoodFaith wrote:
mr.hands wrote:
They won't let the Rutger's institution fail, i agree. Individual campuses aren't insulated necessarily, especially considering the number of full scholarships Camden is giving out. Frankly, I don't know how they can afford to keep this up.


Because they are going to section stack and get all their money back next year. That's what stips are for, my friend.


I wish there was a way to reach all their students and warn them.

I'm MAF about that school and its lying to and manipulating students.


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 Post subject: Re: Rutgers just admitted me without my applying
PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2012 1:54 pm 
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InGoodFaith wrote:
Because they are going to section stack and get all their money back next year. That's what stips are for, my friend.


Did you negotiate yours away?


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 Post subject: Re: Rutgers just admitted me without my applying
PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2012 1:58 pm 
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sunynp wrote:
tmgarvey wrote:
CanadianWolf wrote:
@tmgarvey: Don't you think that a lot has changed since 1984 regarding Rutgers-Camden Law school ? Are you comfortable with the area around Rutgers-Camden ?
I've worked two blocks from the Law School for the past 22 years. The worst things that ever happened to me were that a guy tried to sell me a "hot" video camera (with a brick inside the box) while I was sitting in front of the Prosecutor's Office, and my car was broken into and my GPS stolen (while parked directly beneath a sign that said "Prosecutor's Office Parking Only"). LOL, some dumb criminals in Camden. :)

The Law School has gotten bigger and better with a beautiful new building, and the campus has grown enormously since I went there. I am very familiar with how the school is now because of its proximity and because I have worked with numerous recent graduates. The faculty is top-notch.

Nobody with his or her heart set on BigLaw is likely to make Rutgers his or her first choice, but short of that, it's still one of the best schools around.

You don't want to go aimlessly driving or walking around the area beyond the Law School after dark, but the campus itself is very well patrolled and as safe as just about any campus anywhere. I lived in the suburbs because there were no dorms when I attended, but there are options at the school and close by (the Victor), as well as all along the Speedline.


What was the tuition in 1984 or when you enrolled? What was your Cost of Attendance? How much debt did you have? Do you know what the tuition is now? Do you have any idea how hiring is now out of law school? Do a number of grads take unpaid jobs?


Amen. 1984...give me a friggin break.


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 Post subject: Re: Rutgers just admitted me without my applying
PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2012 2:15 pm 
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Last edited by 20130312 on Tue Feb 19, 2013 9:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Rutgers just admitted me without my applying
PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2012 3:04 pm 
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What are the stips? I didn't know they section stacked...


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 Post subject: Re: Rutgers just admitted me without my applying
PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2012 3:06 pm 
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Last edited by 20130312 on Tue Feb 19, 2013 9:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Rutgers just admitted me without my applying
PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2012 6:57 pm 
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They just admitted me without an application and are offering me their Dean's Scholarship (full-tuition). They must be really desperate to be accepting someone who won't be graduating undergrad until May.


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 Post subject: Re: Rutgers just admitted me without my applying
PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2012 9:58 pm 
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shadowofjazz wrote:
They just admitted me without an application and are offering me their Dean's Scholarship (full-tuition). They must be really desperate to be accepting someone who won't be graduating undergrad until May.


Also got this email. Seriously considered asking if they would, say....buy me out of my lease for the 2012-2013 school year? Pay my moving costs? Not because there's a snowball's chance in hell I'd go, but out of pure curiosity about the level of desperation.

Class has to start in what....3 weeks? Even if someone were interested how would they make that happen? Perplexing


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 Post subject: Re: Rutgers just admitted me without my applying
PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2012 10:09 pm 
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I got a full scholarship offer with some pretty generous stips from Rutgers (I think it was Rutgers, I tore the thing up. Don't quote me on it.) Still, I ain't taking nothing with stipulations on it. This is a buyer's market right now. They want to play that bullshit, they can find someone else. That's what you get for playing hokey with your student's livelihoods.

Besides...New Jersey? Yuck. :shock:


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 Post subject: Re: Rutgers just admitted me without my applying
PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 10:35 am 
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Kind of just threw a complete shit fit.

Told them not to contact me again after they emailed and snail mailed me a letter. ...Then they send me multiple emails.

Leave me alone.


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 Post subject: Re: Rutgers just admitted me without my applying
PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 10:37 am 
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catholicgirl wrote:
Kind of just threw a complete shit fit.

Told them not to contact me again after they emailed and snail mailed me a letter. ...Then they send me multiple emails.

Leave me alone.


Your life must be so hard.


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 Post subject: Re: Rutgers just admitted me without my applying
PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 10:38 am 
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tfleming09 wrote:
catholicgirl wrote:
Kind of just threw a complete shit fit.

Told them not to contact me again after they emailed and snail mailed me a letter. ...Then they send me multiple emails.

Leave me alone.


Your life must be so hard.


It is. I have multiple first world problems.


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 Post subject: Re: Rutgers just admitted me without my applying
PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 4:29 pm 
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They emailed me this morning...at 4:22 AM. Cool.

catholicgirl wrote:
Kind of just threw a complete shit fit.

Told them not to contact me again after they emailed and snail mailed me a letter. ...Then they send me multiple emails.

Leave me alone.


This is why I don't even bother telling schools not to contact me.


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 Post subject: Re: Rutgers just admitted me without my applying
PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 4:32 pm 
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westinghouse60 wrote:
They emailed me this morning...at 4:22 AM. Cool.

catholicgirl wrote:
Kind of just threw a complete shit fit.

Told them not to contact me again after they emailed and snail mailed me a letter. ...Then they send me multiple emails.

Leave me alone.


This is why I don't even bother telling schools not to contact me.


So you don't have to deal with OMG I HAD TO OPEN THIS EMAIL AND LOOK AT IT MY LIFE SUCKS


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 Post subject: Re: Rutgers just admitted me without my applying
PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 6:27 pm 
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InGoodFaith wrote:
westinghouse60 wrote:
They emailed me this morning...at 4:22 AM. Cool.

catholicgirl wrote:
Kind of just threw a complete shit fit.

Told them not to contact me again after they emailed and snail mailed me a letter. ...Then they send me multiple emails.

Leave me alone.


This is why I don't even bother telling schools not to contact me.


So you don't have to deal with OMG I HAD TO OPEN THIS EMAIL AND LOOK AT IT MY LIFE SUCKS

It's obnoxious that a supposedly legitimate educational institution will ignore your "no further contact" request and continue to email you. Reeks of desperation, which I imagine is the general scent at Rutgers-Camden law school.


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