Splitter 75%ile

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Clearly
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Splitter 75%ile

Postby Clearly » Sat Jun 23, 2012 3:09 pm

I'm a long-shot splitter, well below the 25th% for GPA.
To what degree does the number of points over the LSAT 75th matter? If the 75th is 171, and I score a 172, how much worse off am I really than if I scored a 175?
I have two schools of thought on this one, the standard numbers mindset, and the applicant quality mindset

Numerically, the data are reported simply as 25 50 75, not as averages. In this light, any score over the 75th has the same impact on numbers as a 180, it's just another head to count past the current 75th

On the other hand, a student applying with a 177 would appear to adcoms as a better option. It's almost a GPA addendum in itself... I'd imagine seeing a 3.0 177 would make the adcom say something like "Wow, must have been a double hard science major...or must have had an illness"

Opinions?

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Nova
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Re: Splitter 75%ile

Postby Nova » Sat Jun 23, 2012 3:19 pm

Just from personal experiance, I dont think it matters all too much. Every school I applied to, I was well below the GPA 25th %ile. I was accepted to several T2s and a few T1s where my LSAT blew their LSAT 75%ile out of the water. I didnt get any $ at most of them, and small amounts of $ from others. I got into my reach school, where my LSAT score was exactly median, and they ended up offering me the biggest scholarship. I think the fact that only medians affect USNWR has something to do with it.

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cutecarmel
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Re: Splitter 75%ile

Postby cutecarmel » Sat Jun 23, 2012 4:48 pm

I think you might be over-analyzing things a little. If your LSAT is above their 75, but your GPA is below the 25, you still have a chance, but like Nova mentioned, you might not get as much $ as more well-balanced candidates.

Your always better off with a higher LSAT score, but then again, the LSAT is pretty "learnable". I don't think the adcoms would jump right into thinking that you were a double science major (unless you were) or that you were sick; I would think that they would assume that you don't do well in a classroom setting but you know how to get serious about studying when you have to.

All of this is just my opinion, of course. I have no idea what they might actually think, but your chances of getting into the schools you want largely depends on what your choices are. If you have a "T10 or bust" attitude, you might be in trouble, but if your willing to go to a lower-ranked T1 or a T2, you probably won't be in bad shape.

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Clearly
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Re: Splitter 75%ile

Postby Clearly » Sat Jun 23, 2012 11:58 pm

I wouldn't say top 10 or bust...more like T14 sticker/T30 $ or bust.
I appreciate the input. I'm gonna ED UVA or NU and blanket the T20 or so, nonbinding early to Cornell, etc. I'm preparing my information now, I literally intend to hit every application the day they open.

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Samara
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Re: Splitter 75%ile

Postby Samara » Sun Jun 24, 2012 12:50 am

IMO, after 173, it's all the same, unless you have the GPA for YSH.

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notedgarfigaro
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Re: Splitter 75%ile

Postby notedgarfigaro » Sun Jun 24, 2012 10:31 am

Anything at or above their 75% is all they care about (in terms of the LSAT score). If the 75% is 168, there's no real difference to the school between a 169 and a 180, b/c either way, it's above the 75%. If there is a difference, it's so slight as be completely overshadowed by getting your apps in as soon as possible as opposed to retaking for an extra 3 points (which is what I'm assuming you're asking about).

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oaken
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Re: Splitter 75%ile

Postby oaken » Sun Jun 24, 2012 2:15 pm

notedgarfigaro wrote:Anything at or above their 75% is all they care about (in terms of the LSAT score). If the 75% is 168, there's no real difference to the school between a 169 and a 180, b/c either way, it's above the 75%. If there is a difference, it's so slight as be completely overshadowed by getting your apps in as soon as possible as opposed to retaking for an extra 3 points (which is what I'm assuming you're asking about).


I'm no expert, but this advice sounds pretty wrong to me. I'm sure that the value of an increased score diminishes once you've hit their 75th%, but I think you're exaggerating. A higher LSAT score will always have more value than a lower one.

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Nova
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Re: Splitter 75%ile

Postby Nova » Sun Jun 24, 2012 5:05 pm

oaken wrote:
notedgarfigaro wrote:Anything at or above their 75% is all they care about (in terms of the LSAT score). If the 75% is 168, there's no real difference to the school between a 169 and a 180, b/c either way, it's above the 75%. If there is a difference, it's so slight as be completely overshadowed by getting your apps in as soon as possible as opposed to retaking for an extra 3 points (which is what I'm assuming you're asking about).


I'm no expert, but this advice sounds pretty wrong to me. I'm sure that the value of an increased score diminishes once you've hit their 75th%, but I think you're exaggerating. A higher LSAT score will always have more value than a lower one.


Just speculating, but I would think the added value would begin to taper off as soon as one hits median, since that is what affects USNWR. I agree with you though. The higher the score, the better.

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cutecarmel
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Re: Splitter 75%ile

Postby cutecarmel » Sun Jun 24, 2012 6:36 pm

oaken wrote:
notedgarfigaro wrote:Anything at or above their 75% is all they care about (in terms of the LSAT score). If the 75% is 168, there's no real difference to the school between a 169 and a 180, b/c either way, it's above the 75%. If there is a difference, it's so slight as be completely overshadowed by getting your apps in as soon as possible as opposed to retaking for an extra 3 points (which is what I'm assuming you're asking about).


I'm no expert, but this advice sounds pretty wrong to me. I'm sure that the value of an increased score diminishes once you've hit their 75th%, but I think you're exaggerating. A higher LSAT score will always have more value than a lower one.


Yeah. I would assume that they would like higher scores because they increase the median LSAT score.

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IAFG
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Re: Splitter 75%ile

Postby IAFG » Sun Jun 24, 2012 6:40 pm

cutecarmel wrote:
oaken wrote:
notedgarfigaro wrote:Anything at or above their 75% is all they care about (in terms of the LSAT score). If the 75% is 168, there's no real difference to the school between a 169 and a 180, b/c either way, it's above the 75%. If there is a difference, it's so slight as be completely overshadowed by getting your apps in as soon as possible as opposed to retaking for an extra 3 points (which is what I'm assuming you're asking about).


I'm no expert, but this advice sounds pretty wrong to me. I'm sure that the value of an increased score diminishes once you've hit their 75th%, but I think you're exaggerating. A higher LSAT score will always have more value than a lower one.


Yeah. I would assume that they would like higher scores because they increase the median LSAT score.

That's not what median means.

Schools rationally shouldn't care about scores over the 75th, but they sure seem to.

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cutecarmel
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Re: Splitter 75%ile

Postby cutecarmel » Sun Jun 24, 2012 6:48 pm

Its interesting how so many students think they are so much wiser than school officials who have been doing this for years. :lol:

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Clearly
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Re: Splitter 75%ile

Postby Clearly » Sun Jun 24, 2012 8:35 pm

cutecarmel wrote:Its interesting how so many students think they are so much wiser than school officials who have been doing this for years. :lol:

Have any of them chimed in?

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aekea
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Re: Splitter 75%ile

Postby aekea » Sun Jun 24, 2012 11:07 pm

Not sure about chances at admissions, but a score well above the 75th might increase scholarship offers since many schools use formulas to determine merit aid. Take Michigan, for example. Their 25th percentile for GPA is around a 3.6 and their 75th for LSAT is 170. Looking at Law School Numbers, a 3.6/170 will get you $30,000 in merit aid. A 3.6 and a 171 - 175 gets you something between $45 & $67,500 and everyone with a 176 and up got $67,500.

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Samara
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Re: Splitter 75%ile

Postby Samara » Mon Jun 25, 2012 1:49 pm

aekea wrote:Not sure about chances at admissions, but a score well above the 75th might increase scholarship offers since many schools use formulas to determine merit aid. Take Michigan, for example. Their 25th percentile for GPA is around a 3.6 and their 75th for LSAT is 170. Looking at Law School Numbers, a 3.6/170 will get you $30,000 in merit aid. A 3.6 and a 171 - 175 gets you something between $45 & $67,500 and everyone with a 176 and up got $67,500.

WUSTL has a similar system. For big splitters, I think the cutoff for $84k is 172 or 173. 170 gets you $60k, IIRC. Under 170 gets you little or none.

So, it can matter for scholarships, but once you're a point or two above the 75th, the marginal benefit of each additional point is very small.

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dietcoke0
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Re: Splitter 75%ile

Postby dietcoke0 » Mon Jun 25, 2012 8:30 pm

WUSTL pretty steady at 168 for $$$. I had a sub 3.0 (not due to slacking off) and a 170, got one rejection, two wait lists (both I am confident I would've got in with LOCI since they still ask me to this day if I'm interested, but I decline), and in at several T1 with $$$, and some near full rides at T2 schools. Did not apply to a single T14 though. (should've thrown out apps, but probably would only get sticker, and rather go to school I'm going to now anyway)

Really just look at LSN and LSP and just kind of figure out who likes splitters, and who doesn't.

As far as how far above the 75% it really helps depends on what the school is looking to do (move up medians and 25-75%) That's a reason why WUSTL throws out a lot of money, to try and get those medians up. If you have a sub 3, you won't have many options in the T14, but will have many in the T30. Either way, some T25ish aren't going to care if you are 1 point or 5 points off the 75%, while others will. State schools tend to care less I feel, and private degree mills type schools would like you to join.

Just find locations you want to live after law schools, what schools feed to the positions you think you would like to try, and then see which schools are doable.

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Wily
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Re: Splitter 75%ile

Postby Wily » Mon Jun 25, 2012 9:35 pm

Samara wrote:
aekea wrote:Not sure about chances at admissions, but a score well above the 75th might increase scholarship offers since many schools use formulas to determine merit aid. Take Michigan, for example. Their 25th percentile for GPA is around a 3.6 and their 75th for LSAT is 170. Looking at Law School Numbers, a 3.6/170 will get you $30,000 in merit aid. A 3.6 and a 171 - 175 gets you something between $45 & $67,500 and everyone with a 176 and up got $67,500.

WUSTL has a similar system. For big splitters, I think the cutoff for $84k is 172 or 173. 170 gets you $60k, IIRC. Under 170 gets you little or none.

So, it can matter for scholarships, but once you're a point or two above the 75th, the marginal benefit of each additional point is very small.


Except I had a 2.7/168 and got $84k from WUSTL. I guess their standards are a-lowering.

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Clearly
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Re: Splitter 75%ile

Postby Clearly » Tue Jun 26, 2012 12:44 am

2.9 // 173. Good WE, EDing NU early app Cornell, blanket 10-20ish, and switch to ED UVA if dinged at NU. Literally sending apps Oct first, or day one of opening

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emkay625
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Re: Splitter 75%ile

Postby emkay625 » Tue Jun 26, 2012 12:47 am

Clearlynotstefan wrote:2.9 // 173. Good WE, EDing NU early app Cornell, blanket 10-20ish, and switch to ED UVA if dinged at NU. Literally sending apps Oct first, or day one of opening


you can't ed uva if you ed northwestern - they make you promise to not ed anywhere else if you ed nu. i suppose there's really nothing to stop you from doing it but it could somehow come back to bite you.

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Clearly
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Re: Splitter 75%ile

Postby Clearly » Tue Jun 26, 2012 2:36 am

emkay625 wrote:
Clearlynotstefan wrote:2.9 // 173. Good WE, EDing NU early app Cornell, blanket 10-20ish, and switch to ED UVA if dinged at NU. Literally sending apps Oct first, or day one of opening


you can't ed uva if you ed northwestern - they make you promise to not ed anywhere else if you ed nu. i suppose there's really nothing to stop you from doing it but it could somehow come back to bite you.


Are you sure of this? I know you can't ED TO NU if you have already ED'd elsewhere, as in I couldn't ED UVA, get dinged, then ED NU. Obviously I couldn't ED to both at the same time...But I don't see how they have any authority to tell me how I can apply after they have denied me. They denied the terms of whats basically a binding ED contract...They couldn't turn around and say we decline your offer, but still you can't do this.

UVA of course could have a policy similar to NU, in that if I ED'd to NU and was denied, they wouldn't accept my ED offer, but I'm pretty sure this isn't the case, hell they let people who have already been denied admission change to ED and get reevaluated lol.

I could be totally wrong, as LS admissions doesn't play by the rules of thought, but I'm hoping you are mistaken regarding the policy that they will not allow someone who has already ED'd to apply ED.

Thanks

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bk1
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Re: Splitter 75%ile

Postby bk1 » Tue Jun 26, 2012 2:44 am

Clearlynotstefan wrote:
emkay625 wrote:
Clearlynotstefan wrote:2.9 // 173. Good WE, EDing NU early app Cornell, blanket 10-20ish, and switch to ED UVA if dinged at NU. Literally sending apps Oct first, or day one of opening


you can't ed uva if you ed northwestern - they make you promise to not ed anywhere else if you ed nu. i suppose there's really nothing to stop you from doing it but it could somehow come back to bite you.


Are you sure of this? I know you can't ED TO NU if you have already ED'd elsewhere, as in I couldn't ED UVA, get dinged, then ED NU. Obviously I couldn't ED to both at the same time...But I don't see how they have any authority to tell me how I can apply after they have denied me. They denied the terms of whats basically a binding ED contract...They couldn't turn around and say we decline your offer, but still you can't do this.

UVA of course could have a policy similar to NU, in that if I ED'd to NU and was denied, they wouldn't accept my ED offer, but I'm pretty sure this isn't the case, hell they let people who have already been denied admission change to ED and get reevaluated lol.

I could be totally wrong, as LS admissions doesn't play by the rules of thought, but I'm hoping you are mistaken regarding the policy that they will not allow someone who has already ED'd to apply ED.

Thanks


So I contacted the schools by email/phone about this prior to last cycle. NU said it exactly as emkay said, if you ED to NU you cannot ED anywhere else that same cycle. What will happen if you do? I have no idea. Maybe they'll tell the other school and the other school would ding you for it. I don't know. That being said, you should call all schools you plan to ED to just to be sure you can. NU was very dodgy in their email response to me, whereas GULC/UMich (and UVA I think, but I can't remember) were very clearly okay with it. NYU was also very okay with it during my phone call to them. Do phone because you can get clarity that I did not in my email.

You also seem to misunderstand the ED. They aren't denying your ED contract, they are denying your application. You agreed to the terms of the ED contract so that they would consider you under their ED program. Whether they admit you or not doesn't really matter, though most schools will release you from it when they deny/waitlist/defer you.

Also your plan has a pretty big weakness. If you ED to NU and RD to UVA, by the time you get your NU ED decision back UVA will likely already have rendered you a decision making it impossible to switch to ED. This leaves you with 2 options: (1) RD early and just accept it will be RD, or (2) wait until you get your NU decision back and ED to UVA straight. Both have pros and cons. You're also pretty much guaranteed not to get into NU's ED (since it's full ride).

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Clearly
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Re: Splitter 75%ile

Postby Clearly » Tue Jun 26, 2012 2:56 am

bk1 wrote:
Clearlynotstefan wrote:
emkay625 wrote:
Clearlynotstefan wrote:2.9 // 173. Good WE, EDing NU early app Cornell, blanket 10-20ish, and switch to ED UVA if dinged at NU. Literally sending apps Oct first, or day one of opening


you can't ed uva if you ed northwestern - they make you promise to not ed anywhere else if you ed nu. i suppose there's really nothing to stop you from doing it but it could somehow come back to bite you.


Are you sure of this? I know you can't ED TO NU if you have already ED'd elsewhere, as in I couldn't ED UVA, get dinged, then ED NU. Obviously I couldn't ED to both at the same time...But I don't see how they have any authority to tell me how I can apply after they have denied me. They denied the terms of whats basically a binding ED contract...They couldn't turn around and say we decline your offer, but still you can't do this.

UVA of course could have a policy similar to NU, in that if I ED'd to NU and was denied, they wouldn't accept my ED offer, but I'm pretty sure this isn't the case, hell they let people who have already been denied admission change to ED and get reevaluated lol.

I could be totally wrong, as LS admissions doesn't play by the rules of thought, but I'm hoping you are mistaken regarding the policy that they will not allow someone who has already ED'd to apply ED.

Thanks


So I contacted the schools by email/phone about this prior to last cycle. NU said it exactly as emkay said, if you ED to NU you cannot ED anywhere else that same cycle. What will happen if you do? I have no idea. Maybe they'll tell the other school and the other school would ding you for it. I don't know. That being said, you should call all schools you plan to ED to just to be sure you can. NU was very dodgy in their email response to me, whereas GULC/UMich (and UVA I think, but I can't remember) were very clearly okay with it. NYU was also very okay with it during my phone call to them. Do phone because you can get clarity that I did not in my email.

You also seem to misunderstand the ED. They aren't denying your ED contract, they are denying your application. You agreed to the terms of the ED contract so that they would consider you under their ED program. Whether they admit you or not doesn't really matter, though most schools will release you from it when they deny/waitlist/defer you.

Also your plan has a pretty big weakness. If you ED to NU and RD to UVA, by the time you get your NU ED decision back UVA will likely already have rendered you a decision making it impossible to switch to ED. This leaves you with 2 options: (1) RD early and just accept it will be RD, or (2) wait until you get your NU decision back and ED to UVA straight. Both have pros and cons. You're also pretty much guaranteed not to get into NU's ED (since it's full ride).

Yeah I did think of this flaw, I'm still piecing it together. I'm a long shot at either, but both have been taking more super splitters in the last cycle, below 3, sometimes even below my 2.9... Are you implying that the ED program at NU (which I admittedly know little about) only accepts candidates that they offer full rides to? One could not ED to NU and pay sticker? This would shock the hell out of me, as that's one of only 2 real incentives to offer the program... guaranteed income from non-scholly students, and matriculation protection..



Edit: holy crap your right! http://www.law.northwestern.edu/admissi ... cation.pdf
Thats a pretty huge stipulation, and its pretty messed up in my mind! I can understand not allowing ED applications to those that have already been denied via ED from another school, as it shows you weren't the first choice...But to tell me I can't protect my own interests AFTER you have told me you want nothing to do with me is kinda messed up!

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Ded Precedent
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Re: Splitter 75%ile

Postby Ded Precedent » Tue Jun 26, 2012 3:11 am

Are they doing the full ride with ED again? If so, looking at LSN I don't think you would have much of a chance with that GPA.

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bk1
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Re: Splitter 75%ile

Postby bk1 » Tue Jun 26, 2012 3:17 am

Clearlynotstefan wrote:Yeah I did think of this flaw, I'm still piecing it together. I'm a long shot at either, but both have been taking more super splitters in the last cycle, below 3, sometimes even below my 2.9... Are you implying that the ED program at NU (which I admittedly know little about) only accepts candidates that they offer full rides to? One could not ED to NU and pay sticker? This would shock the hell out of me, as that's one of only 2 real incentives to offer the program... guaranteed income from non-scholly students, and matriculation protection..

Edit: holy crap your right! http://www.law.northwestern.edu/admissi ... cation.pdf
Thats a pretty huge stipulation, and its pretty messed up in my mind! I can understand not allowing ED applications to those that have already been denied via ED from another school, as it shows you weren't the first choice...But to tell me I can't protect my own interests AFTER you have told me you want nothing to do with me is kinda messed up!


Yes, NU's ED program (starting as of last year) offers full rides to those who are accepted through it. GW and (one of BU/BC) have similar programs. Last cycle the people accepted via the fulld ride ED were all 3.4+/170+/2+yearsWE, iirc. Some people say that EDing to NU will show you are committed to them and raise your odds of getting an acceptance (and possible money) after being deferred from ED. There's a bunch of threads with people in similar positions asking for advice regarding ED's. You should search for them.

I think NYU's ED is worded in a similar fashion, however according to my phone call to their admissions department it is not their intent to bind people to anything once they have been rejected/waitlisted/deferred. You should call NU's admissions office just to get things clarified.

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Clearly
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Re: Splitter 75%ile

Postby Clearly » Tue Jun 26, 2012 3:21 am

I plan on it. Ah fuck man, maybe I'll RD both on opening day, and see what happens. I really like the ED boost at UVA, and they've shown more willingness to dip below 3 in cases last cycle, but I really prefer NU to UVA, although I'd love both. I'd be pissed if I got in ED UVA, only to get accepted to NU :shock: luxury problems I suppose. It's far more likely I'll get dinged and end up somewhere else, but these are my two dreams. I'm also nonbinding EA Cornell, although they don't like the splits too much. Damn, this admission game is serious business! :|

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Re: Splitter 75%ile

Postby Tiago Splitter » Thu Jun 28, 2012 1:02 pm

ED to NU will be a waste if they keep the full ride on the table for ED admits. If you want NU just apply RD everywhere and be ready to change your app to UVA to ED if things move against you. Also, this:

IAFG wrote:Schools rationally shouldn't care about scores over the 75th, but they sure seem to.


Although yield protection at some schools flips this theory on its head. Look at the LSN graph for Penn.

http://penn.lawschoolnumbers.com/stats




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