Currently a Subspecialist MD, Considering Law School

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abc12345675
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Re: Currently a Subspecialist MD, Considering Law School

Postby abc12345675 » Tue Jun 19, 2012 4:41 pm

MD to JD wrote:It's always been my understanding that a top JD opens more doors than a Chicago/HBS/Wharton MBA.

Can you tell me more about this pathway, what kind of work it would entail, and possible cash flow?

I didn't do medicine for the money, although the money is great. I did it for the patients, but I cannot overstate how much medicine is changing, and how difficult it is becoming to put the patients first.

If I can't practice medicine the way I love, and on top of that, it can be boring, why not go for a challenging career working in international law or business?

I don't think I will have any problem getting into HBS or Wharton with my background and contacts and experience.

score12905 wrote:
abc12345675 wrote:If you want to work in London/Hong Kong, why not go get an MBA and work with a bank's healthcare/pharmaceutical group?



I agree. Check out Wharton or HBS's healthcare resume book. There are a number of MD's in there but mostly all went to Penn or Harvard. The level of competition is still high so I wouldn't kid yourself that you can just slide in. Business school admissions are much less focused on #'s and want quality work experience.

Don't do law school to make more money. If you went into medicine for the same reason, you would be foolish to make the same mistake twice. Anyone with half a brain saw provider reimbursement cuts coming. Law school and biglaw aren't as lucrative as you are thinking, assuming that you aren't a pediatrician and indeed make 500k. You are making out much better than your peers but if you aren't stimulated enough, add on a top MBA and profit.


It depends on what you mean by "doors." I'll repeat. if you want to work in London/Hong Kong, the MBA is the way to go I promise.
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Re: Currently a Subspecialist MD, Considering Law School

Postby MD to JD » Tue Jun 19, 2012 4:41 pm

I don't mean to push the point or sound like an arrogant jerk, but I'm not "just a doctor", but a very highly trained, specialized, and sought after doctor at the top of my field.

When I ask about bump in admissions, I'm asking from that background.


nmop_apisdn wrote:
MD to JD wrote:Solid advice. Can you tell me more about v5 versus v100? That means top 5 vault firms, right?

What does that mean in the real world in terms of money and opportunities? I thought all biglaw started at 160.

I guess the first step is to man up and take the LSAT. Perhaps I should avoid law school unless I can score HYS?

What's your GPA? If it's below 3.7, you're pretty much out of luck for YSH no matter what you score on the LSAT.


Not necessarily true. Do you know how medians work?[/quote]
Do you know how GPA floors work?[/quote]

True dat. But you also admitted:

Samara wrote:I mean, non-trad applicants like yourself are hard to predict. But GPA and LSAT are 90% of the admissions game. If you aren't a URM (black, native American, or certain types of Hispanic, IIRC), you have to be a really special applicant to get in with a GPA below 3.7. Being a successful doctor for several years might make you a special applicant, but I wouldn't count on it.


Which actually shows that you agree with me, since it doesnt necessarily hold true for "special applicants", as you said yourself. I think being a doctor for a long time could help bump her (her?) up to the that bracket of people, as long as there are other things about her she has yet to disclose with us such as URM, or what not, that could help her application.

In other words, its not impossible to get in with less than a 3.7, its just... highly unlikely.[/quote]

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Re: Currently a Subspecialist MD, Considering Law School

Postby MD to JD » Tue Jun 19, 2012 4:45 pm

My plan will probably be to sit for the LSAT and GMAT. Apply to top programs, and figure the rest out.

Thanks to all who replied.

abc12345675 wrote:
MD to JD wrote:It's always been my understanding that a top JD opens more doors than a Chicago/HBS/Wharton MBA.

Can you tell me more about this pathway, what kind of work it would entail, and possible cash flow?

I didn't do medicine for the money, although the money is great. I did it for the patients, but I cannot overstate how much medicine is changing, and how difficult it is becoming to put the patients first.

If I can't practice medicine the way I love, and on top of that, it can be boring, why not go for a challenging career working in international law or business?

I don't think I will have any problem getting into HBS or Wharton with my background and contacts and experience.

score12905 wrote:
abc12345675 wrote:If you want to work in London/Hong Kong, why not go get an MBA and work with a bank's healthcare/pharmaceutical group?



I agree. Check out Wharton or HBS's healthcare resume book. There are a number of MD's in there but mostly all went to Penn or Harvard. The level of competition is still high so I wouldn't kid yourself that you can just slide in. Business school admissions are much less focused on #'s and want quality work experience.

Don't do law school to make more money. If you went into medicine for the same reason, you would be foolish to make the same mistake twice. Anyone with half a brain saw provider reimbursement cuts coming. Law school and biglaw aren't as lucrative as you are thinking, assuming that you aren't a pediatrician and indeed make 500k. You are making out much better than your peers but if you aren't stimulated enough, add on a top MBA and profit.


It depends on what you mean by "doors." I'll repeat. if you want to work in London/Hong Kong, the MBA is the way to go I promise.

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Re: Currently a Subspecialist MD, Considering Law School

Postby dowu » Tue Jun 19, 2012 4:46 pm

MD to JD, figure out how to fix your quotes from certain users, as it's easier to follow the path of posts.

MD to JD wrote: I don't mean to push the point or sound like an arrogant jerk, but I'm not "just a doctor", but a very highly trained, specialized, and sought after doctor at the top of my field.

When I ask about bump in admissions, I'm asking from that background.


This is what I'm saying - there may be something special about you, to the adcoms at HYS, that maybe will help them to get over a sub 3.7 gpa. Who knows!? As JCFindley said, you don't know until you try.

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Re: Currently a Subspecialist MD, Considering Law School

Postby rayiner » Tue Jun 19, 2012 4:47 pm

Have you contemplated consulting? I think consulting is total bullshit, but in your unique situation it might be a good idea. If you're sharp you should be able to get through the interview process at M/B/B with your MD. That'll give you the client contact, etc, you seem to be after. However, note that you'll take a huge pay cut. Very few consultants exit M/B/B making even half of what you make now.

As for law, $400-500k is achievable as a partner, even outside the biggest law firms. However, achieving that is not formulaic as it is in medicine. It's not enough to just ace your boards, etc. The ABA does not constrain supply like the AMA. It all depends on whether you can bring in business. And you don't know whether you can do that until you try.

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Re: Currently a Subspecialist MD, Considering Law School

Postby bjsesq » Tue Jun 19, 2012 4:47 pm

MD to JD wrote:I don't mean to push the point or sound like an arrogant jerk, but I'm not "just a doctor", but a very highly trained, specialized, and sought after doctor at the top of my field.


The fact that you are coming from this background to a prospective career in big law boggles my mind. I am really not sure you are doing enough research, hoss.

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Re: Currently a Subspecialist MD, Considering Law School

Postby score12905 » Tue Jun 19, 2012 4:49 pm

..
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Re: Currently a Subspecialist MD, Considering Law School

Postby MD to JD » Tue Jun 19, 2012 4:49 pm

Sorry. On my smartphone.

Yes, I just need to take the plunge and try.


nmop_apisdn wrote:MD to JD, figure out how to fix the users you're quoting, as it's easier to follow the path of posts.


MD to JD wrote: I don't mean to push the point or sound like an arrogant jerk, but I'm not "just a doctor", but a very highly trained, specialized, and sought after doctor at the top of my field.

When I ask about bump in admissions, I'm asking from that background.


This is what I'm saying - there may be something special about you, to the adcoms at HYS, that maybe will help them to get over a sub 3.7 gpa. Who knows!? As JCFindley said, you don't know until you try.

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Re: Currently a Subspecialist MD, Considering Law School

Postby RedBirds2011 » Tue Jun 19, 2012 4:50 pm

bjsesq wrote:
MD to JD wrote:I don't mean to push the point or sound like an arrogant jerk, but I'm not "just a doctor", but a very highly trained, specialized, and sought after doctor at the top of my field.


The fact that you are coming from this background to a prospective career in big law boggles my mind. I am really not sure you are doing enough research, hoss.




MD to JD: Out of curiosity, what exactly IS your highly sought after sub-specialty? And also, what specifically do you think t is about law that will make it more interesting than medicine?

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Re: Currently a Subspecialist MD, Considering Law School

Postby MD to JD » Tue Jun 19, 2012 4:51 pm

"consulting" is what med students at Hopkins do for McKinsey or Bain, but what does that really mean, and what does the job entail?

rayiner wrote:Have you contemplated consulting? I think consulting is total bullshit, but in your unique situation it might be a good idea. If you're sharp you should be able to get through the interview process at M/B/B with your MD. That'll give you the client contact, etc, you seem to be after. However, note that you'll take a huge pay cut. Very few consultants exit M/B/B making even half of what you make now.

As for law, $400-500k is achievable as a partner, even outside the biggest law firms. However, achieving that is not formulaic as it is in medicine. It's not enough to just ace your boards, etc. The ABA does not constrain supply like the AMA. It all depends on whether you can bring in business. And you don't know whether you can do that until you try.

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Re: Currently a Subspecialist MD, Considering Law School

Postby JCFindley » Tue Jun 19, 2012 4:52 pm

MD to JD wrote:I don't mean to push the point or sound like an arrogant jerk, but I'm not "just a doctor", but a very highly trained, specialized, and sought after doctor at the top of my field.

When I ask about bump in admissions, I'm asking from that background.




Which actually shows that you agree with me, since it doesnt necessarily hold true for "special applicants", as you said yourself. I think being a doctor for a long time could help bump her (her?) up to the that bracket of people, as long as there are other things about her she has yet to disclose with us such as URM, or what not, that could help her application.

In other words, its not impossible to get in with less than a 3.7, its just... highly unlikely.



Bingo!

Keep in mind for the most part you are talking to people in LS or about to be that came straight from UG or had a couple years WE. (There are exceptions like Dingbat there.) All they can tell you is basically Vegas odds on your chances coming from a straight statistical perspective......

WE varies widely. Lets say two applicants are five years out of UG, one was on the SEAL team that nailed OBL and won the Medal of Honor and the other was an asst manager at Wendy's. One will get you in WAY above your numbers and the other might actually hurt..... Your WE falls way closer to the Navy SEAL than the asst-mngr but how much it will help is going to vary from school to school..... I would take Vegas odds that there is not a single person on here that can actually give you a good read.

I will say the advice I got was not to even bother applying late (March) and it was pointless to apply at the school I did. I figured no one on here had a clue about my specifics and all it cost was the app fee to try so I did.....

You can look at the odds but know that your background changes them but it is impossible to know how much.

JC

Edited to fix quotes
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Re: Currently a Subspecialist MD, Considering Law School

Postby MD to JD » Tue Jun 19, 2012 4:53 pm

bjsesq wrote:
MD to JD wrote:I don't mean to push the point or sound like an arrogant jerk, but I'm not "just a doctor", but a very highly trained, specialized, and sought after doctor at the top of my field.


The fact that you are coming from this background to a prospective career in big law boggles my mind. I am really not sure you are doing enough research, hoss.



I would say the same if you wanted to jump into medicine. :)

Grass is greener perhaps, but the combination of intellectual boredom and jadedness can really make a man think about his career choices.

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Re: Currently a Subspecialist MD, Considering Law School

Postby MD to JD » Tue Jun 19, 2012 4:56 pm

Thank you for the great post. I will take it all into consideration.

Getting to my point in medicine meant eating alot of **** sandwhiches for breakfast for years, all while beating out the competition.

Do I have the mental endurance to do it all over again in law/finance? That's a huge question only I can think about and answer.


score12905 wrote:
MD to JD wrote:Thank you. My only hesitation asking my friends biglaw spouses is they will think I'm crazy, and I won't get objective advice.

I will follow up with other contacts, though.

It's my understanding the economy is very bad for lawyers, but is it for top lawyers?

I probably have a poor understanding what biglaw is really like, and as you said, would not like the constraints I found myself in.

So, what's biglaw really like?


So I would first accept the fact that in this economy, everyone will think you are crazy for switching. Whether you are or not, you'll have to start explaining why you want a jd in a tactful way. This will also be helpful in your law school applications.

Second, you should be cognizant that certain areas of law and finance want people on a strict track. being mid 30's and able to revert (hopefully) back to a successful career in medicine would make them suspicious that you'll stick around so they can get their ROI. a lot of these first jobs out of school are going to require a lot of you and not in an intellectually stimulating and fulfilling way.

Third, no one is not going to be able to tell you if you WILL make more than 500k as a lawyer. There are lawyers who do. There are doctors who do. Making over 500k as a lawyer or doctor is the exception, not the rule. There are plenty of hard working, financially driven and smart lawyers from HYS who don't make over 500k. I'd recommend that you explore if there's anything else in your field that interests you before making the switch.

Fourth, if you can, do a Harvard JD-MBA. That'll give you the best options in finance or law (or politics).

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Re: Currently a Subspecialist MD, Considering Law School

Postby RedBirds2011 » Tue Jun 19, 2012 4:56 pm

RedBirds2011 wrote:
bjsesq wrote:
MD to JD wrote:I don't mean to push the point or sound like an arrogant jerk, but I'm not "just a doctor", but a very highly trained, specialized, and sought after doctor at the top of my field.


The fact that you are coming from this background to a prospective career in big law boggles my mind. I am really not sure you are doing enough research, hoss.




MD to JD: Out of curiosity, what exactly IS your highly sought after sub-specialty? And also, what specifically do you think t is about law that will make it more interesting than medicine?

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Re: Currently a Subspecialist MD, Considering Law School

Postby dingbat » Tue Jun 19, 2012 4:57 pm

MD to JD wrote:
dingbat wrote:
MD to JD wrote:
dingbat wrote:I'm in a similar boat and it scares the bejesus out of me, but I'm going anyway


What's your story?

Not on a public message board.

Synopsis: I work in a very niche area of finance and I've achieved all I can possibly achieve here.
I want to transition to the legal side as I believe there's more room for personal growth.
Due to certain aspects I cannot disclose, once I'm out of it, it's almost impossible to get back in.


Exactly my position. Very well said.

Takes alot of courage to follow your dreams/personal growth from our places in life.

Finance blends easier with the law. Medicine seems miles away, and I'm wondering if I'll get dinged by top firms for it. I don't want to go from top of medicine to permanently bottom in law (s***law).
You could translate that into a medical litigation position, if you're so inclined. Be prepared to answer questions about it

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Re: Currently a Subspecialist MD, Considering Law School

Postby bjsesq » Tue Jun 19, 2012 5:00 pm

MD to JD wrote:
bjsesq wrote:
MD to JD wrote:I don't mean to push the point or sound like an arrogant jerk, but I'm not "just a doctor", but a very highly trained, specialized, and sought after doctor at the top of my field.


The fact that you are coming from this background to a prospective career in big law boggles my mind. I am really not sure you are doing enough research, hoss.



I would say the same if you wanted to jump into medicine. :)

Grass is greener perhaps, but the combination of intellectual boredom and jadedness can really make a man think about his career choices.


There are some truths in there, but I want to point out some very clear differences:

1) You are established in your current area. Starting as a junior associate means a ton of hours, little face time with clients, a major crapshoot at making partner with the cards stacked against your chances.

2) Dissatisfaction with profession- attorneys are consistently at the bottom of job satisfaction surveys (I owe you source on this one, don't let me get away with not providing one)

3) Brand new debt (presumably, unless you have a scholly and a nest egg)

I could likely find some more if I thought about, but these are what jumped out at me. I would exercise caution. If you are that miserable with your current position, maybe leaving is the best option. I am just not sure the legal profession has the greener pastures you are looking for.

Why the fuck am I posting substantively all of a sudden? It's giving me a fucking headache. Need to make a bukkakke joke or something.

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Re: Currently a Subspecialist MD, Considering Law School

Postby MD to JD » Tue Jun 19, 2012 5:01 pm

RedBirds2011 wrote:
bjsesq wrote:
MD to JD wrote:I don't mean to push the point or sound like an arrogant jerk, but I'm not "just a doctor", but a very highly trained, specialized, and sought after doctor at the top of my field.


The fact that you are coming from this background to a prospective career in big law boggles my mind. I am really not sure you are doing enough research, hoss.




MD to JD: Out of curiosity, what exactly IS your highly sought after sub-specialty? And also, what specifically do you think t is about law that will make it more interesting than medicine?


I won't out myself.

Getting a jd and working in biglaw/finance seems like a good challenge to me, with opportunities to be rewarded for my hard work, and career options that exceed that of an md in terms of versatility.

A poster above talked about "consulting" or even getting an MBA and branching out into fields that would utilize my prior medical experience. I'd like to hear more about that.

Medicine offers alot, but it's changing. Trust me. Most docs I know who are near the top of the game want out. The only docs I know who don't really want out aren't the best in their fields, or are primary care folks (no offense).

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Re: Currently a Subspecialist MD, Considering Law School

Postby abc12345675 » Tue Jun 19, 2012 5:04 pm

MD to JD wrote:
RedBirds2011 wrote:
bjsesq wrote:
MD to JD wrote:I don't mean to push the point or sound like an arrogant jerk, but I'm not "just a doctor", but a very highly trained, specialized, and sought after doctor at the top of my field.


The fact that you are coming from this background to a prospective career in big law boggles my mind. I am really not sure you are doing enough research, hoss.




MD to JD: Out of curiosity, what exactly IS your highly sought after sub-specialty? And also, what specifically do you think t is about law that will make it more interesting than medicine?


I won't out myself.

Getting a jd and working in biglaw/finance seems like a good challenge to me, with opportunities to be rewarded for my hard work, and career options that exceed that of an md in terms of versatility.

A poster above talked about "consulting" or even getting an MBA and branching out into fields that would utilize my prior medical experience. I'd like to hear more about that.

Medicine offers alot, but it's changing. Trust me. Most docs I know who are near the top of the game want out. The only docs I know who don't really want out aren't the best in their fields, or are primary care folks (no offense).


I'm telling you, the MBA is THE way to go for you. Ace the GMAT, go to a top business school, use your past experience to get into the healthcare group at Goldman, Morgan Stanley, JP Morgan, Credit Suisse, or Lazard. Enjoy bigger pay, better shot at London/Hong Kong, and more client interaction

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Re: Currently a Subspecialist MD, Considering Law School

Postby score12905 » Tue Jun 19, 2012 5:08 pm

..
Last edited by score12905 on Tue Jun 19, 2012 5:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Currently a Subspecialist MD, Considering Law School

Postby RedBirds2011 » Tue Jun 19, 2012 5:12 pm

Listen to abc. I know a lot of docs and most of them LOVE what they do. I know you know LOT more and know more about the downsides of modern day medicine than I do (I hear it from my cardiologist uncle a lot too). However, Law is even worse. The job satisfaction amongst lawyers is insanely low and most of the work youll do for quite a number of years is not what most would call intellectually interesting.


You seem very, very qualified for a top MBA program. That is the absolute best way I think for you to change gears. By changing to something like law, you would run the risk of completely destroying all you have accomplished at this point for something much less impressive and interesting.

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Re: Currently a Subspecialist MD, Considering Law School

Postby RedBirds2011 » Tue Jun 19, 2012 5:15 pm

score12905 wrote:
MD to JD wrote:Thank you for the great post. I will take it all into consideration.

Getting to my point in medicine meant eating alot of **** sandwhiches for breakfast for years, all while beating out the competition.

Do I have the mental endurance to do it all over again in law/finance? That's a huge question only I can think about and answer.



right but I still don't think you are understanding what being an associate at a biglaw firm will really entail. it's not the same as being pimped by an attending after staying up all night. and then, as you say, you'll have to factor in that you are doing this process in your mid 30's.

so, numerically, lets just look at this is a little more carefully cause this is starting to seem useless. lets say you finished college at 21 + 4 years of medical school + 3 years of internal med + 3 years of cardio= 31. So you've been practicing for a few years? That's not exactly at the top of your field regardless of where you went. This takes out of the equation that you were chief resident, did some extended research for a year or took any time off. Also, you've been practicing a few years and you already make 500K?

...and don't come back and say you did something like radiology cause you def were trying to brag by saying you were a sub specialist. flaaaaaaaaaaaaaame.




Yea, based off some of these responses, I am VERY skeptical as well. But if you are real OP, TCR is to go for a top MBA. Law is not going to further your career for the better most likely. An MBA you could do a LOT with such an extensive healthcare background though.

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Re: Currently a Subspecialist MD, Considering Law School

Postby MD to JD » Tue Jun 19, 2012 5:16 pm

abc12345675 wrote:
I'm telling you, the MBA is THE way to go for you. Ace the GMAT, go to a top business school, use your past experience to get into the healthcare group at Goldman, Morgan Stanley, JP Morgan, Credit Suisse, or Lazard. Enjoy bigger pay, better shot at London/Hong Kong, and more client interaction


I like this idea. I always thought JD was > MBA for this pathway, but I am going to seriously research this route as well.

It will cost me 550-600k per year in lost income for the MBA, but I have enough saved to cover most of the living/tuition, I'd wager.

What's the lifestyle/income/career track of one of the MBA healthcare group types at those places?

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Re: Currently a Subspecialist MD, Considering Law School

Postby score12905 » Tue Jun 19, 2012 5:18 pm

..
Last edited by score12905 on Tue Jun 19, 2012 5:52 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Currently a Subspecialist MD, Considering Law School

Postby MD to JD » Tue Jun 19, 2012 5:20 pm

I know how this looks, but it's not a flame. I won't give out any more info to out myself.

If my colleagues read this thread, there is a decent chance some would guess me. Medicine is a small world, particularly the subspecialists who practice at the elite levels.





score12905 wrote:
MD to JD wrote:Thank you for the great post. I will take it all into





consideration.

Getting to my point in medicine meant eating alot of **** sandwhiches for breakfast for years, all while beating out the competition.

Do I have the mental endurance to do it all over again in law/finance? That's a huge question only I can think about and answer.



right but I still don't think you are understanding what being an associate at a biglaw firm will really entail. it's not the same as being pimped by an attending after staying up all night. and then, as you say, you'll have to factor in that you are doing this process in your mid 30's.

so, numerically, lets just look at this is a little more carefully cause this is starting to seem useless. lets say you finished college at 21 + 4 years of medical school + 3 years of internal med + 3 years of cardio= 31. So you've been practicing for a few years? That's not exactly at the top of your field regardless of where you went. This takes out of the equation that you were chief resident, did some extended research for a year or took any time off. Also, you've been practicing a few years and you already make 500K?

...and don't come back and say you did something like radiology cause you def were trying to brag by saying you were a sub specialist. flaaaaaaaaaaaaaame.

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Re: Currently a Subspecialist MD, Considering Law School

Postby MD to JD » Tue Jun 19, 2012 5:23 pm

I can't get good advice without being as objectively honest as I can without outting myself.

Thanks to all for the advice. I will probably take the LSAT and GMAT, but focus my research on getting into Goldman/etc with an MBA.



score12905 wrote:
RedBirds2011 wrote:
score12905 wrote:
MD to JD wrote:Thank you for the great post. I will take it all into consideration.

Getting to my point in medicine meant eating alot of **** sandwhiches for breakfast for years, all while beating out the competition.

Do I have the mental endurance to do it all over again in law/finance? That's a huge question only I can think about and answer.



right but I still don't think you are understanding what being an associate at a biglaw firm will really entail. it's not the same as being pimped by an attending after staying up all night. and then, as you say, you'll have to factor in that you are doing this process in your mid 30's.

so, numerically, lets just look at this is a little more carefully cause this is starting to seem useless. lets say you finished college at 21 + 4 years of medical school + 3 years of internal med + 3 years of cardio= 31. So you've been practicing for a few years? That's not exactly at the top of your field regardless of where you went. This takes out of the equation that you were chief resident, did some extended research for a year or took any time off. Also, you've been practicing a few years and you already make 500K?

...and don't come back and say you did something like radiology cause you def were trying to brag by saying you were a sub specialist. flaaaaaaaaaaaaaame.




Yea, based off some of these responses, I am VERY skeptical as well. But if you are real OP, TCR is to go for a top MBA. Law is not going to further your career for the better most likely. An MBA you could do a LOT with such an extensive healthcare background though.


it's def a flame. assuming this is all true, he would be making more than most of his colleagues at a pretty young age. even for a cardiolgist, 500k is higher than 75% of other cardiologists. so he's at the top 25% of his field and now wants to switch fields to something completely different and still assumes he will be at the top %.

flame or narcissist.




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