Impact of a perfect score

(Applications Advice, Letters of Recommendation . . . )
User avatar
Helicio
Posts: 483
Joined: Wed Aug 11, 2010 5:22 pm

Re: Impact of a perfect score

Postby Helicio » Sun Jun 10, 2012 10:08 am

vblhe wrote:
Helicio wrote:

The fact remains that you will recieve a huge boost because of URM status, and you will get in over white/Middle Eastern/Indian/Asian people who have the same or slightly higher stats than you, even if those people have family incomes that are much lower than what your family income is, even if those people have had less opportunities than you have.


BTW, where does your data on this point come from? It is one thing to say that there is a boost for URM status. But people here and on other forums speak as if admissions are more transparent than they actually are.


Last post on this thread.

Check out Law School Numbers for data. Put down URM, study hard, study for the LSAT, and you will meet success. Sorry so many people are giving you trouble on this thread (TLS often does that). Good luck!

User avatar
oaken
Posts: 339
Joined: Mon Oct 24, 2011 11:27 am

Re: Impact of a perfect score

Postby oaken » Sun Jun 10, 2012 8:12 pm

vblhe wrote:Finally, I don't know what a social chair for a fraternity is


Just reading this thread through, this is by far my favorite line of his

User avatar
Clearly
Posts: 4165
Joined: Sat Feb 11, 2012 4:09 pm

Re: Impact of a perfect score

Postby Clearly » Sun Jun 10, 2012 9:03 pm

You have the best extra curricular of them all: being black.

Also, just out of curiosity, have you taken the LSAT yet?

User avatar
mindarmed
Posts: 959
Joined: Sun May 27, 2012 2:16 pm

Re: Impact of a perfect score

Postby mindarmed » Mon Jun 11, 2012 12:31 am

ITT: Insufferable douchey URM outperforms his numbers only to eventually make it into biglaw where he is admonished and ostracized by his colleagues.

User avatar
Indebted
Posts: 85
Joined: Thu Apr 01, 2010 1:27 pm

Re: Impact of a perfect score

Postby Indebted » Mon Jun 11, 2012 1:22 am

As someone with a 3.3/180, I can confirm that it is wait list city without ED. I'd bet, however, that as a URM you'd get in everywhere RD with $$$ from Columbia down.

vblhe
Posts: 27
Joined: Wed May 30, 2012 12:17 am

Re: Impact of a perfect score

Postby vblhe » Mon Jun 11, 2012 8:53 pm

armedwithamind wrote:ITT: Insufferable douchey URM outperforms his numbers only to eventually make it into biglaw where he is admonished and ostracized by his colleagues.


I guess its a good thing I'm not going into biglaw. Also, for what would I be hypothetically admonished?

vblhe
Posts: 27
Joined: Wed May 30, 2012 12:17 am

Re: Impact of a perfect score

Postby vblhe » Mon Jun 11, 2012 8:54 pm

Indebted wrote:As someone with a 3.3/180, I can confirm that it is wait list city without ED. I'd bet, however, that as a URM you'd get in everywhere RD with $$$ from Columbia down.


I appreciate your candor, but, as a teachable moment for anyone who else who might be watching, this is precisely why I didn't originally mention my Blackness.

Mal Reynolds
Posts: 12630
Joined: Mon Oct 03, 2011 12:16 am

Re: Impact of a perfect score

Postby Mal Reynolds » Mon Jun 11, 2012 8:55 pm

vblhe wrote:
Indebted wrote:As someone with a 3.3/180, I can confirm that it is wait list city without ED. I'd bet, however, that as a URM you'd get in everywhere RD with $$$ from Columbia down.


I appreciate your candor, but, as a teachable moment for anyone who else who might be watching, this is precisely why I didn't originally mention my Blackness.


SHUT UP.

vblhe
Posts: 27
Joined: Wed May 30, 2012 12:17 am

Re: Impact of a perfect score

Postby vblhe » Mon Jun 11, 2012 8:59 pm

Clearlynotstefan wrote:You have the best extra curricular of them all: being black.

Also, just out of curiosity, have you taken the LSAT yet?


And if that's the case, I guess being an oppressed minority is worth it if it helps me in law school admissions. But I suspect being a rich White kid with a father who could buy a new dorm would be a slightly better one. Not yet, I'm basing this on my practice test numbers.

vblhe
Posts: 27
Joined: Wed May 30, 2012 12:17 am

Re: Impact of a perfect score

Postby vblhe » Mon Jun 11, 2012 8:59 pm

Mal Reynolds wrote:
vblhe wrote:
Indebted wrote:As someone with a 3.3/180, I can confirm that it is wait list city without ED. I'd bet, however, that as a URM you'd get in everywhere RD with $$$ from Columbia down.


I appreciate your candor, but, as a teachable moment for anyone who else who might be watching, this is precisely why I didn't originally mention my Blackness.


SHUT UP.


NO.

User avatar
Clearly
Posts: 4165
Joined: Sat Feb 11, 2012 4:09 pm

Re: Impact of a perfect score

Postby Clearly » Mon Jun 11, 2012 10:22 pm

vblhe wrote:
Clearlynotstefan wrote:You have the best extra curricular of them all: being black.

Also, just out of curiosity, have you taken the LSAT yet?


And if that's the case, I guess being an oppressed minority is worth it if it helps me in law school admissions. But I suspect being a rich White kid with a father who could buy a new dorm would be a slightly better one. Not yet, I'm basing this on my practice test numbers.


I'm hoping that wasn't directed at me. While I'm not getting into the politics of it, yes like it or not being an oppressed minority is very much going to help with your law school admissions. Much more so then being a white kid raised by a broke single mother, who's dad can't buy a pair of shoes, much less a dorm. :!:

vblhe
Posts: 27
Joined: Wed May 30, 2012 12:17 am

Re: Impact of a perfect score

Postby vblhe » Tue Jun 12, 2012 1:57 pm

Clearlynotstefan wrote:
vblhe wrote:
Clearlynotstefan wrote:You have the best extra curricular of them all: being black.

Also, just out of curiosity, have you taken the LSAT yet?


And if that's the case, I guess being an oppressed minority is worth it if it helps me in law school admissions. But I suspect being a rich White kid with a father who could buy a new dorm would be a slightly better one. Not yet, I'm basing this on my practice test numbers.


I'm hoping that wasn't directed at me. While I'm not getting into the politics of it, yes like it or not being an oppressed minority is very much going to help with your law school admissions. Much more so then being a white kid raised by a broke single mother, who's dad can't buy a pair of shoes, much less a dorm. :!:


Ah yes, economics, studies have found that even among Blacks admitted to law school 89% are in the top economic strata, this mimics the overall economic segregation in elite law schools. (I unfortunately would fall into the 11%) Studies have also shown that economic based affirmatve action tends to lead to more racial diversity than simply race based affirmative action. So, yes I understand that there are poor White kids, and I do believe that Theo Huxtable shouldn't necessarily get a leg up over Opie, unless were talking about a school with literally no minorities. My point was that you made it sound like being Black was at the top of the list of unearned "advantages". (I would argue that if it wasn't earned it was certainly paid for). I was simply showing that having a parent who was a rich alumnus of a school I was applying to who could also make a massive donation is probably at the top of the list. Furthermore, every socioeconomic indicator shows that I would be more likely to be in that position if I were White (hence the use of race in my hypothetical.

User avatar
Clearly
Posts: 4165
Joined: Sat Feb 11, 2012 4:09 pm

Re: Impact of a perfect score

Postby Clearly » Tue Jun 12, 2012 2:14 pm

vblhe wrote:
Clearlynotstefan wrote:
vblhe wrote:
Clearlynotstefan wrote:You have the best extra curricular of them all: being black.

Also, just out of curiosity, have you taken the LSAT yet?


And if that's the case, I guess being an oppressed minority is worth it if it helps me in law school admissions. But I suspect being a rich White kid with a father who could buy a new dorm would be a slightly better one. Not yet, I'm basing this on my practice test numbers.


I'm hoping that wasn't directed at me. While I'm not getting into the politics of it, yes like it or not being an oppressed minority is very much going to help with your law school admissions. Much more so then being a white kid raised by a broke single mother, who's dad can't buy a pair of shoes, much less a dorm. :!:


Ah yes, economics, studies have found that even among Blacks admitted to law school 89% are in the top economic strata, this mimics the overall economic segregation in elite law schools. (I unfortunately would fall into the 11%) Studies have also shown that economic based affirmatve action tends to lead to more racial diversity than simply race based affirmative action. So, yes I understand that there are poor White kids, and I do believe that Theo Huxtable shouldn't necessarily get a leg up over Opie, unless were talking about a school with literally no minorities. My point was that you made it sound like being Black was at the top of the list of unearned "advantages". (I would argue that if it wasn't earned it was certainly paid for). I was simply showing that having a parent who was a rich alumnus of a school I was applying to who could also make a massive donation is probably at the top of the list. Furthermore, every socioeconomic indicator shows that I would be more likely to be in that position if I were White (hence the use of race in my hypothetical.


That doesn't really justify anything. The percentage of rich white kids going to law schools with parents who also attended that law school, went on to make money, then later decided to leverage buying a dorm to assist their child might be 1%. The percentage of black law school applicants getting a boost is 100%. I would be willing to bet that the number of white students applying each cycle under the above conditions is significantly lower then the number of African American applicants. In other words, being black is almost certainly going to benefit you more then the slim chance of being in a tiny group of elite legacy white students.

That said, I support affirmative action, I just wish it was based on socioeconomic policy, not strictly pigmentation. Also, I never said anything about "unearned" or "unjustified" or "not paid for". I was merely commenting that dismissing your boost as an AA on the grounds that some white people are rich is crazy. The reality is there is NO better factor outside of your GPA and LSAT than your color, regardless of economic/educational opportunity. You would have to have done something very amazing for an EC to mean more then URM status.

I don't doubt that URM's face additional difficulties in education, score lower on the LSAT, or have less opportunity to high quality education. I just don't believe ONLY URM's face those difficulties. Like I said, I support AA, and if you faced difficulties as a result of your race that placed you at a disadvantage relative to the median white student, I support you getting a boost. If you went to private schools your whole life, were exposed to the same education and opportunities as white students, I don't believe you should get a boost.

Point being, if being black has been so rough your whole life (and it very well may have been) than you should embrace the URM boost , not dismiss it.

vblhe
Posts: 27
Joined: Wed May 30, 2012 12:17 am

Re: Impact of a perfect score

Postby vblhe » Tue Jun 12, 2012 2:47 pm

I'm hoping that wasn't directed at me. While I'm not getting into the politics of it, yes like it or not being an oppressed minority is very much going to help with your law school admissions. Much more so then being a white kid raised by a broke single mother, who's dad can't buy a pair of shoes, much less a dorm. :!:


Ah yes, economics, studies have found that even among Blacks admitted to law school 89% are in the top economic strata, this mimics the overall economic segregation in elite law schools. (I unfortunately would fall into the 11%) Studies have also shown that economic based affirmatve action tends to lead to more racial diversity than simply race based affirmative action. So, yes I understand that there are poor White kids, and I do believe that Theo Huxtable shouldn't necessarily get a leg up over Opie, unless were talking about a school with literally no minorities. My point was that you made it sound like being Black was at the top of the list of unearned "advantages". (I would argue that if it wasn't earned it was certainly paid for). I was simply showing that having a parent who was a rich alumnus of a school I was applying to who could also make a massive donation is probably at the top of the list. Furthermore, every socioeconomic indicator shows that I would be more likely to be in that position if I were White (hence the use of race in my hypothetical.


That doesn't really justify anything. The percentage of rich white kids going to law schools with parents who also attended that law school, went on to make money, then later decided to leverage buying a dorm to assist their child might be 1%. The percentage of black law school applicants getting a boost is 100%. I would be willing to bet that the number of white students applying each cycle under the above conditions is significantly lower then the number of African American applicants. In other words, being black is almost certainly going to benefit you more then the slim chance of being in a tiny group of elite legacy white students.

That said, I support affirmative action, I just wish it was based on socioeconomic policy, not strictly pigmentation. Also, I never said anything about "unearned" or "unjustified" or "not paid for". I was merely commenting that dismissing your boost as an AA on the grounds that some white people are rich is crazy. The reality is there is NO better factor outside of your GPA and LSAT than your color, regardless of economic/educational opportunity. You would have to have done something very amazing for an EC to mean more then URM status.

I don't doubt that URM's face additional difficulties in education, score lower on the LSAT, or have less opportunity to high quality education. I just don't believe ONLY URM's face those difficulties. Like I said, I support AA, and if you faced difficulties as a result of your race that placed you at a disadvantage relative to the median white student, I support you getting a boost. If you went to private schools your whole life, were exposed to the same education and opportunities as white students, I don't believe you should get a boost.

Point being, if being black has been so rough your whole life (and it very well may have been) than you should embrace the URM boost , not dismiss it.


I wasn't saying that that incredibly rare circumstance justifies anything. I was simply pointing out that there are better things to be in the big scheme of law school admissions than Black.

The percentage of black law school applicants getting a boost is 100%. I would be willing to bet that the number of white students applying each cycle under the above conditions is significantly lower then the number of African American applicants. In other words, being black is almost certainly going to benefit you more then the slim chance of being in a tiny group of elite legacy white students.

If you're trying to argue that measure for measure it is better to be Black than White for the purpose of going to law school. That is a more abstract point than I would want to argue, simply look at the fact that 40% of White adults vs. 20% of Black adults have bachelor's degrees, the rest are not even in the running for law admissions period as well as massive wealth disparities.

Truly, there is no reason for us to be debating, we both agree with AA. I agree with you about Socioeconomic AA, that's why I mentioned the studies about it. The fact that 89% of Black law school students are well off means that the members of my community who were supposed to be helped by AA are being left out, it seems like socioeconomic AA might definitely help solve this problem in addition to increased equality in public schooling, while ensuring that a child of the Black bourgeoisie doens't knock out some kid from Appalachia. And btw, I am by no means dismissing the URM boost, I simply wanted to get an assesment which didn't factor it in. I fully intend to take advantage of it on my apps.

User avatar
crooked
Posts: 253
Joined: Fri Jan 21, 2011 11:23 pm

Re: Impact of a perfect score

Postby crooked » Tue Jun 12, 2012 4:18 pm

vblhe wrote:I know topics of this nature are relatively common, I've read several but none ever seemed to quite speak to my situation. How much weight does the LSAT carry vis a vis the GPA? Let's say one has a middle of the road GPA (3.3) and a perfect to near perfect LSAT 175-180, what are the prospects as far as getting into a top 10 school. This is imperative because of the choking glut of law graduates. And, for the sake of argument, let's throw in stellar campus-based extra-curricular. Not student-body president but still excellent.


vblhe wrote:And btw, I am by no means dismissing the URM boost, I simply wanted to get an assesment which didn't factor it in. I fully intend to take advantage of it on my apps.


This thread was started to get a sense of your prospects with a range of LSAT scores and a given GPA. Your prospects are substantially different because you are a URM, making that hugely relevant to the discussion, which several people before have pointed out. There's no point in asking your "chances" without factoring in your URM status, because that's a hypothetical that will have no bearing on your actual application cycle. Your time would be better spent studying for the LSAT so that you have actual numbers with which to gauge your chances.




Return to “Law School Admissions Forum”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot], tx1990 and 4 guests