Impact of a perfect score

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vblhe
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Impact of a perfect score

Postby vblhe » Wed Jun 06, 2012 12:24 pm

I know topics of this nature are relatively common, I've read several but none ever seemed to quite speak to my situation. How much weight does the LSAT carry vis a vis the GPA? Let's say one has a middle of the road GPA (3.3) and a perfect to near perfect LSAT 175-180, what are the prospects as far as getting into a top 10 school. This is imperative because of the choking glut of law graduates. And, for the sake of argument, let's throw in stellar campus-based extra-curricular. Not student-body president but still excellent.

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rinkrat19
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Re: Impact of a perfect score

Postby rinkrat19 » Wed Jun 06, 2012 12:26 pm

lawschoolnumbers.com
lawschoolpredictor.com

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Mr. Somebody
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Re: Impact of a perfect score

Postby Mr. Somebody » Wed Jun 06, 2012 12:38 pm

vblhe wrote:I know topics of this nature are relatively common, I've read several but none ever seemed to quite speak to my situation. How much weight does the LSAT carry vis a vis the GPA? Let's say one has a middle of the road GPA (3.3) and a perfect to near perfect LSAT 175-180, what are the prospects as far as getting into a top 10 school. This is imperative because of the choking glut of law graduates. And, for the sake of argument, let's throw in stellar campus-based extra-curricular. Not student-body president but still excellent.


Prospects are pretty good for T10, but you may have to ED or ride out waitlists for a sure thing. See my LSN. Don't expect too much money either.

Campus-based EC's won't make a difference.

vblhe
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Re: Impact of a perfect score

Postby vblhe » Wed Jun 06, 2012 1:47 pm

Say one's score is significantly higher than the 75th percentile (like 5 points)

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TommyK
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Re: Impact of a perfect score

Postby TommyK » Wed Jun 06, 2012 1:59 pm

vblhe wrote:Say one's score is significantly higher than the 75th percentile (like 5 points)


dude, just check out lawschoolnumbers. Scope out the school(s) and see how many splitters there are. Some schools have really firm GPA floors. Your questions are too vague for any information to be useful and any information can be garnered through a review of the graphs.

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2014
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Re: Impact of a perfect score

Postby 2014 » Wed Jun 06, 2012 5:00 pm

180 might buy you a LITTLE bit of an advantage, but 175-179 is a 175-179 and LSN tells you how you should expect to do. I'll give you a hint, a lot of waitlists unless you ED.

vblhe
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Re: Impact of a perfect score

Postby vblhe » Thu Jun 07, 2012 9:09 am

Mr. Somebody wrote:
vblhe wrote:I know topics of this nature are relatively common, I've read several but none ever seemed to quite speak to my situation. How much weight does the LSAT carry vis a vis the GPA? Let's say one has a middle of the road GPA (3.3) and a perfect to near perfect LSAT 175-180, what are the prospects as far as getting into a top 10 school. This is imperative because of the choking glut of law graduates. And, for the sake of argument, let's throw in stellar campus-based extra-curricular. Not student-body president but still excellent.


Prospects are pretty good for T10, but you may have to ED or ride out waitlists for a sure thing. See my LSN. Don't expect too much money either.

Campus-based EC's won't make a difference.


I find it hard to believe that campus extracurriculars don't matter. (If that is the correct interpretation of what you said.) Every admissions website cites demonstrated leadership and other like things. Furthermore, wouldn't it be expected that people who were involved in undergrad would contribute greatly to the law school community, and furthermore that such persons would be more likely to become politicians, activists or other types of change-agents thereby bringing repute to their alma mater and also possibly dough (above and beyond what the average rich lawyer brings). Would you mind elaborating?

2014 wrote:180 might buy you a LITTLE bit of an advantage, but 175-179 is a 175-179 and LSN tells you how you should expect to do. I'll give you a hint, a lot of waitlists unless you ED.


One of the schools I'm looking at is UPENN, and I saw people with 172's and 3.2 GPA's who got admitted. Would you mind elaborating?

thederangedwang
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Re: Impact of a perfect score

Postby thederangedwang » Thu Jun 07, 2012 9:13 am

Campus EC do matter..but keep in mind that everybody applying to school's as elite as the T14 will have solid EC..so basically, you are not at all special or above average if you are student body president or part of this club/that club/has this publication/that publication..which means that EC really does not matter all that much.

I would argue that being a student body president is, in the grand scheme of things, is probably a 5/10 in terms of impressiveness...keep in mind you are going against tons of people with work expierience, prestigious fellowships, advanced degrees, this and that talent.

Bottom line, since you yourself characterized your EC as not as impressive as student body president, then your EC is probably not at all impressive to the admissions committee people.

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TommyK
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Re: Impact of a perfect score

Postby TommyK » Thu Jun 07, 2012 9:19 am

vblhe wrote:I find it hard to believe that campus extracurriculars don't matter. (If that is the correct interpretation of what you said.) Every admissions website cites demonstrated leadership and other like things.


What? You expect an admissions website to say they only care about numbers? Look at the numbers and see how small of deviation there is on numbers between candidates. Draw your own conclusions - whether you believe an advertisement or a massive collection of admits.

The schools that really do care about things outside numbers want waaaaay more impressive stuff than starting up a club or being a social chair for a fraternity or whatever you think sets you apart.

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Re: Impact of a perfect score

Postby thederangedwang » Thu Jun 07, 2012 9:23 am

TommyK wrote:
vblhe wrote:I find it hard to believe that campus extracurriculars don't matter. (If that is the correct interpretation of what you said.) Every admissions website cites demonstrated leadership and other like things.


What? You expect an admissions website to say they only care about numbers? Look at the numbers and see how small of deviation there is on numbers between candidates. Draw your own conclusions - whether you believe an advertisement or a massive collection of admits.

The schools that really do care about things outside numbers want waaaaay more impressive stuff than starting up a club or being a social chair for a fraternity or whatever you think sets you apart.

:x way to make me look bad with your far clearer/succinct answer

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soj
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Re: Impact of a perfect score

Postby soj » Thu Jun 07, 2012 11:15 am

Most schools pretend to care about softs because they want people who don't really have a chance to think they have a chance. Otherwise, application numbers would plummet.

vblhe
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Re: Impact of a perfect score

Postby vblhe » Thu Jun 07, 2012 11:49 am

TommyK wrote:
vblhe wrote:I find it hard to believe that campus extracurriculars don't matter. (If that is the correct interpretation of what you said.) Every admissions website cites demonstrated leadership and other like things.


What? You expect an admissions website to say they only care about numbers? Look at the numbers and see how small of deviation there is on numbers between candidates. Draw your own conclusions - whether you believe an advertisement or a massive collection of admits.

The schools that really do care about things outside numbers want waaaaay more impressive stuff than starting up a club or being a social chair for a fraternity or whatever you think sets you apart.


I was simply teasing out one possible and decidedly narrow interpretation of his statement to gather the logic behind it. Furthermore, your willful mischaracterization of what I said about my extracurriculars is irritating and leads me to question your faculties. In my original post I said that I was mentioning my ec's FOR THE SAKE OF ARGUMENT because I understood that it is primarily a numbers game and admits with good EC's don't directly boost a school's rankings; since, however, EC's would be among the things on my app I figured I would get the forum's opinion on how they would play. Finally, I don't know what a social chair for a fraternity is, but I was the head of the campus judiciary, ran the newspaper, 4 years quizbowl, student senator, interned at NAACP (yes folks I'm Black) and a judge's office I'm probably leaving some things out but you get the point. I'm not saying this sets me apart at the elite level, only that it's waaaay more impressive than that piddly shit you made up to discredit me.

vblhe
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Re: Impact of a perfect score

Postby vblhe » Thu Jun 07, 2012 11:52 am

thederangedwang wrote:
TommyK wrote:
vblhe wrote:I find it hard to believe that campus extracurriculars don't matter. (If that is the correct interpretation of what you said.) Every admissions website cites demonstrated leadership and other like things.


What? You expect an admissions website to say they only care about numbers? Look at the numbers and see how small of deviation there is on numbers between candidates. Draw your own conclusions - whether you believe an advertisement or a massive collection of admits.

The schools that really do care about things outside numbers want waaaaay more impressive stuff than starting up a club or being a social chair for a fraternity or whatever you think sets you apart.

:x way to make me look bad with your far clearer/succinct answer


Your answer was very helpful and succinct enough without all the snark.

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rinkrat19
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Re: Impact of a perfect score

Postby rinkrat19 » Thu Jun 07, 2012 11:56 am

vblhe wrote:
thederangedwang wrote:
TommyK wrote:
vblhe wrote:I find it hard to believe that campus extracurriculars don't matter. (If that is the correct interpretation of what you said.) Every admissions website cites demonstrated leadership and other like things.


What? You expect an admissions website to say they only care about numbers? Look at the numbers and see how small of deviation there is on numbers between candidates. Draw your own conclusions - whether you believe an advertisement or a massive collection of admits.

The schools that really do care about things outside numbers want waaaaay more impressive stuff than starting up a club or being a social chair for a fraternity or whatever you think sets you apart.

:x way to make me look bad with your far clearer/succinct answer


Your answer was very helpful and succinct enough without all the snark.
:roll: If you think that was inappropriately snarky, you have not been here very long.

TLS is a huge source of incredibly valuable information, but you have to have at least averagely thick internet skin, or you'll be too busy getting your fee-fees hurt to glean any good tips.

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Samara
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Re: Impact of a perfect score

Postby Samara » Thu Jun 07, 2012 12:07 pm

vblhe wrote:I was simply teasing out one possible and decidedly narrow interpretation of his statement to gather the logic behind it. Furthermore, your willful mischaracterization of what I said about my extracurriculars is irritating and leads me to question your faculties. In my original post I said that I was mentioning my ec's FOR THE SAKE OF ARGUMENT because I understood that it is primarily a numbers game and admits with good EC's don't directly boost a school's rankings; since, however, EC's would be among the things on my app I figured I would get the forum's opinion on how they would play. Finally, I don't know what a social chair for a fraternity is, but I was the head of the campus judiciary, ran the newspaper, 4 years quizbowl, student senator, interned at NAACP (yes folks I'm Black) and a judge's office I'm probably leaving some things out but you get the point. I'm not saying this sets me apart at the elite level, only that it's waaaay more impressive than that piddly shit you made up to discredit me.

Protip: Implying that people trying to help you are racist is not a good way to get them to help you.

Your extra-curriculars are nice, but they aren't game-changing. I had a lot of similar softs and I performed exactly as my numbers predicted. You will, however, get a significant boost from being a URM.

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TommyK
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Re: Impact of a perfect score

Postby TommyK » Thu Jun 07, 2012 12:24 pm

vblhe wrote:I was simply teasing out one possible and decidedly narrow interpretation of his statement to gather the logic behind it. Furthermore, your willful mischaracterization of what I said about my extracurriculars is irritating and leads me to question your faculties. quote]



vblhe wrote:I find it hard to believe that campus extracurriculars don't matter

How did I mischaracterize what you were saying? Furthermore, you use "furthermore" way too much. You sound like a douche.

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crooked
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Re: Impact of a perfect score

Postby crooked » Thu Jun 07, 2012 12:34 pm

vblhe wrote:
TommyK wrote:
vblhe wrote:I find it hard to believe that campus extracurriculars don't matter. (If that is the correct interpretation of what you said.) Every admissions website cites demonstrated leadership and other like things.


What? You expect an admissions website to say they only care about numbers? Look at the numbers and see how small of deviation there is on numbers between candidates. Draw your own conclusions - whether you believe an advertisement or a massive collection of admits.

The schools that really do care about things outside numbers want waaaaay more impressive stuff than starting up a club or being a social chair for a fraternity or whatever you think sets you apart.


I was simply teasing out one possible and decidedly narrow interpretation of his statement to gather the logic behind it. Furthermore, your willful mischaracterization of what I said about my extracurriculars is irritating and leads me to question your faculties. In my original post I said that I was mentioning my ec's FOR THE SAKE OF ARGUMENT because I understood that it is primarily a numbers game and admits with good EC's don't directly boost a school's rankings; since, however, EC's would be among the things on my app I figured I would get the forum's opinion on how they would play. Finally, I don't know what a social chair for a fraternity is, but I was the head of the campus judiciary, ran the newspaper, 4 years quizbowl, student senator, interned at NAACP (yes folks I'm Black) and a judge's office I'm probably leaving some things out but you get the point. I'm not saying this sets me apart at the elite level, only that it's waaaay more impressive than that piddly shit you made up to discredit me.


What Samara said, basically.
It sounds like you have decent but not extraordinary softs (ECs and internships). You will be competing for spots against people with significant work experience, advanced degrees, prestigious fellowships, etc. No one is trying to discount your involvement in your school community; schools just don't care about it much relative to your numbers. You can probably expect a significant bump from being a URM.

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crooked
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Re: Impact of a perfect score

Postby crooked » Thu Jun 07, 2012 12:34 pm

rinkrat19 wrote:TLS is a huge source of incredibly valuable information, but you have to have at least averagely thick internet skin, or you'll be too busy getting your fee-fees hurt to glean any good tips.


"fee-fees." I love it.

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2014
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Re: Impact of a perfect score

Postby 2014 » Thu Jun 07, 2012 12:43 pm

vblhe wrote:]
2014 wrote:180 might buy you a LITTLE bit of an advantage, but 175-179 is a 175-179 and LSN tells you how you should expect to do. I'll give you a hint, a lot of waitlists unless you ED.


One of the schools I'm looking at is UPENN, and I saw people with 172's and 3.2 GPA's who got admitted. Would you mind elaborating?


If you apply regular decision with anywhere between a 172 and a 179 and your 3.3, your probable results for the T10 are:
HYS - Out
Columbia - WL
Chicago - WL
NYU - WL
Penn - WL
Virginia - WL
Berkeley - Out
Michigan - WL

ED that turns to: (By no means a guarantee, again I'm talking about probable results here)
HYS - Out
Columbia - WL
Chicago - In (Not at 172 though)
NYU - In (^^)
Penn - In
Virginia - In
Berkeley - Out (No ED anyway)
Michigan - In

Applying regular decision the odds suggest you will probably get off 1-3 of those waitlists, but if you really really want to go to Penn for example, there is no way to assure yourself that Penn will be one of the WL's that you get off of.

That is also not to say that a school might bite and just let you in off the bat. It happens to a few people every year and it could be you, but until you have submitted applications everything is a guessing game and a process of talking about probabilities.

vblhe
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Re: Impact of a perfect score

Postby vblhe » Thu Jun 07, 2012 1:59 pm

Samara wrote:
vblhe wrote:I was simply teasing out one possible and decidedly narrow interpretation of his statement to gather the logic behind it. Furthermore, your willful mischaracterization of what I said about my extracurriculars is irritating and leads me to question your faculties. In my original post I said that I was mentioning my ec's FOR THE SAKE OF ARGUMENT because I understood that it is primarily a numbers game and admits with good EC's don't directly boost a school's rankings; since, however, EC's would be among the things on my app I figured I would get the forum's opinion on how they would play. Finally, I don't know what a social chair for a fraternity is, but I was the head of the campus judiciary, ran the newspaper, 4 years quizbowl, student senator, interned at NAACP (yes folks I'm Black) and a judge's office I'm probably leaving some things out but you get the point. I'm not saying this sets me apart at the elite level, only that it's waaaay more impressive than that piddly shit you made up to discredit me.

Protip: Implying that people trying to help you are racist is not a good way to get them to help you.

Your extra-curriculars are nice, but they aren't game-changing. I had a lot of similar softs and I performed exactly as my numbers predicted. You will, however, get a significant boost from being a URM.


Wasn't implying that anyone was racist, just figured that after mentioning the NAACP people would take that as a hint to my race. I deliberately left that out initially because while I understand, support, and defend affirmative action in legal admissions, I wanted to get an opinion that did not take into account my URM status, while I know it would be a benefit I would like to walk/run in the door not be drug in limping.
Last edited by vblhe on Thu Jun 07, 2012 2:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

vblhe
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Re: Impact of a perfect score

Postby vblhe » Thu Jun 07, 2012 2:03 pm

:roll: If you think that was inappropriately snarky, you have not been here very long.


TLS is a huge source of incredibly valuable information, but you have to have at least averagely thick internet skin, or you'll be too busy getting your fee-fees hurt to glean any good tips.


My internet skin is just fine, I've been on many forums and won many fights with many jackasses, if you'll look at my previous post you'll see me giving as good as I got. Thanks for the useless advice though. I'm gleaning alot of good advice and gettin' a good fight to boot.
Last edited by vblhe on Thu Jun 07, 2012 2:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

vblhe
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Re: Impact of a perfect score

Postby vblhe » Thu Jun 07, 2012 2:05 pm

crooked wrote:
vblhe wrote:
TommyK wrote:
vblhe wrote:I find it hard to believe that campus extracurriculars don't matter. (If that is the correct interpretation of what you said.) Every admissions website cites demonstrated leadership and other like things.


What? You expect an admissions website to say they only care about numbers? Look at the numbers and see how small of deviation there is on numbers between candidates. Draw your own conclusions - whether you believe an advertisement or a massive collection of admits.

The schools that really do care about things outside numbers want waaaaay more impressive stuff than starting up a club or being a social chair for a fraternity or whatever you think sets you apart.


I was simply teasing out one possible and decidedly narrow interpretation of his statement to gather the logic behind it. Furthermore, your willful mischaracterization of what I said about my extracurriculars is irritating and leads me to question your faculties. In my original post I said that I was mentioning my ec's FOR THE SAKE OF ARGUMENT because I understood that it is primarily a numbers game and admits with good EC's don't directly boost a school's rankings; since, however, EC's would be among the things on my app I figured I would get the forum's opinion on how they would play. Finally, I don't know what a social chair for a fraternity is, but I was the head of the campus judiciary, ran the newspaper, 4 years quizbowl, student senator, interned at NAACP (yes folks I'm Black) and a judge's office I'm probably leaving some things out but you get the point. I'm not saying this sets me apart at the elite level, only that it's waaaay more impressive than that piddly shit you made up to discredit me.


What Samara said, basically.
It sounds like you have decent but not extraordinary softs (ECs and internships). You will be competing for spots against people with significant work experience, advanced degrees, prestigious fellowships, etc. No one is trying to discount your involvement in your school community; schools just don't care about it much relative to your numbers. You can probably expect a significant bump from being a URM.


I'm fine with that fact, in fact it is quite encouraging now that i think about it, I won't have to worry so much about the rich kid with all the unpaid internships or the person who gets benefits from family connections.

vblhe
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Re: Impact of a perfect score

Postby vblhe » Thu Jun 07, 2012 2:16 pm

TommyK wrote:
vblhe wrote:I was simply teasing out one possible and decidedly narrow interpretation of his statement to gather the logic behind it. Furthermore, your willful mischaracterization of what I said about my extracurriculars is irritating and leads me to question your faculties. quote]



vblhe wrote:I find it hard to believe that campus extracurriculars don't matter

How did I mischaracterize what you were saying? Furthermore, you use "furthermore" way too much. You sound like a douche.


To repeat, I said that I was mentioning my EC's for the sake of argument as an afterthought, you made it sound like I was waving them in people's faces "Whatever you think sets you apart" if anything, even if my extracurricular activities weren't stellar (which I specifically said they weren't) they should at least be good enough that admissions won't look at them and say "damn, he doesn't have any extracurriculars." I mentioned them as perhaps another factor in whether or not I would be a respectable applicant for T10. Furthermore, I find the that the use of words such as "furthermore", "moreover" "therefore" etc. help to maintain the logical structure of a contention/argument. If you're going to use ad hominem attacks at least be rational if you can't manage clever.

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rinkrat19
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Re: Impact of a perfect score

Postby rinkrat19 » Thu Jun 07, 2012 2:18 pm

vblhe wrote:
:roll: If you think that was inappropriately snarky, you have not been here very long.


TLS is a huge source of incredibly valuable information, but you have to have at least averagely thick internet skin, or you'll be too busy getting your fee-fees hurt to glean any good tips.


My internet skin is just fine, I've been on many forums and won many fights with many jackasses, if you'll look at my previous post you'll see me giving as good as I got. Thanks for the useless advice though. I'm gleaning alot of good advice and gettin' a good fight to boot.
Whoosh. :roll:

Nobody's picking a fight with you, nobody (except you, now) is being a jackass. Nobody 'gave' you anything worth getting sniffy about.

Quit seeing mean people persecuting you everywhere. It'll save you a lot of time and energy.

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TommyK
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Re: Impact of a perfect score

Postby TommyK » Thu Jun 07, 2012 2:25 pm

rinkrat19 wrote:Whoosh. :roll:

Nobody's picking a fight with you, nobody (except you, now) is being a jackass. Nobody 'gave' you anything worth getting sniffy about.

Quit seeing mean people persecuting you everywhere. It'll save you a lot of time and energy.


In his defense, I was being intentionally mean when I said he sounded like a douche. But that's mostly because he sounds like an insufferable douche. Before that, though - I think I was straddling the line between helpful and snarky in classic TLS fashion.




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