anybody else's university considered "W" as credit attempted

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ryanfaro
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anybody else's university considered "W" as credit attempted

Postby ryanfaro » Sun Jun 03, 2012 12:14 am

I have heard that non-punitive Ws that the university considered "attempted credit," and obviously not earned, is considered by LSAC to be a failing grade.

How true is this?

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mindarmed
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Re: anybody else's university considered "W" as credit attempted

Postby mindarmed » Sun Jun 03, 2012 1:26 am

You've asked similar prior questions...just call or submit your transcripts to LSAC.

ryanfaro
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Re: anybody else's university considered "W" as credit attempted

Postby ryanfaro » Sun Jun 03, 2012 1:32 am

armedwithamind wrote:You've asked similar prior questions...just call or submit your transcripts to LSAC.


<3

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NoodleyOne
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Re: anybody else's university considered "W" as credit attempted

Postby NoodleyOne » Sun Jun 03, 2012 9:31 am

My school does the same, but I don't know how LSAC will count it. If it counts against the GPA, I know I'm going to be raising hell with both LSAC and my university until something gets cleared up.

woeisme
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Re: anybody else's university considered "W" as credit attempted

Postby woeisme » Sun Jun 03, 2012 10:45 am

Withdrawn classes (those that weren't withdrawn to avoid an F and were deemed not punitive) are not counted in GPA, as far as I know.

ryanfaro
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Re: anybody else's university considered "W" as credit attempted

Postby ryanfaro » Sun Jun 03, 2012 11:33 am

NoodleyOne wrote:My school does the same, but I don't know how LSAC will count it. If it counts against the GPA, I know I'm going to be raising hell with both LSAC and my university until something gets cleared up.


I completely agree. My school tracks W, I and Audit in credits attempted merely for financial aid and academic standing reasons. You need to complete a percentage of credits you attempt to keep financial aid, the W, I and Audit DO NOT come up in GPA hours, thus meaning non-punitive, but DO come up as attempted credits. If LSAC decides to count them as Fs, I will be going very far to fix it.

woeisme wrote:Withdrawn classes (those that weren't withdrawn to avoid an F and were deemed not punitive) are not counted in GPA, as far as I know.


That was my understanding of it for a very long time, and only recently have I noticed this language on the LSAC website.

"Failing Grades
Any grade notation that signifies failure (such as No Credit, No Credit/Fail, Not Passing, Incomplete/Fail, Withdraw/Fail, Unsatisfactory, Fail, etc.) is converted to zero on the 4.0 scale and is included in the calculation of the GPA, even if the issuing school considers the grade to be nonpunitive. Failure is defined as credit attempted but not earned. If a transcript is not clear about credit attempted, LSAC staff will contact the registrar at the issuing school to confirm whether course credit was attempted. Incomplete and Withdraw grades considered punitive by the issuing school will be included in the conversion. The only exception to this policy is for No Credit, Withdraw/Fail, repeated courses, and incomplete grades specifically explained in Grades Excluded From Conversion."

From http://www.lsac.org/policies/transcript ... zation.asp

woeisme
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Re: anybody else's university considered "W" as credit attempted

Postby woeisme » Sun Jun 03, 2012 12:02 pm

ryanfaro wrote:
NoodleyOne wrote:My school does the same, but I don't know how LSAC will count it. If it counts against the GPA, I know I'm going to be raising hell with both LSAC and my university until something gets cleared up.


I completely agree. My school tracks W, I and Audit in credits attempted merely for financial aid and academic standing reasons. You need to complete a percentage of credits you attempt to keep financial aid, the W, I and Audit DO NOT come up in GPA hours, thus meaning non-punitive, but DO come up as attempted credits. If LSAC decides to count them as Fs, I will be going very far to fix it.

woeisme wrote:Withdrawn classes (those that weren't withdrawn to avoid an F and were deemed not punitive) are not counted in GPA, as far as I know.


That was my understanding of it for a very long time, and only recently have I noticed this language on the LSAC website.

"Failing Grades
Any grade notation that signifies failure (such as No Credit, No Credit/Fail, Not Passing, Incomplete/Fail, Withdraw/Fail, Unsatisfactory, Fail, etc.) is converted to zero on the 4.0 scale and is included in the calculation of the GPA, even if the issuing school considers the grade to be nonpunitive. Failure is defined as credit attempted but not earned. If a transcript is not clear about credit attempted, LSAC staff will contact the registrar at the issuing school to confirm whether course credit was attempted. Incomplete and Withdraw grades considered punitive by the issuing school will be included in the conversion. The only exception to this policy is for No Credit, Withdraw/Fail, repeated courses, and incomplete grades specifically explained in Grades Excluded From Conversion."

From http://www.lsac.org/policies/transcript ... zation.asp


Yeah but that's not inconsistent. That contemplates withdraw-fails. We're talking about withdraw no-fail.

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NoodleyOne
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Re: anybody else's university considered "W" as credit attempted

Postby NoodleyOne » Sun Jun 03, 2012 12:09 pm

woeisme wrote:
ryanfaro wrote:
NoodleyOne wrote:My school does the same, but I don't know how LSAC will count it. If it counts against the GPA, I know I'm going to be raising hell with both LSAC and my university until something gets cleared up.


I completely agree. My school tracks W, I and Audit in credits attempted merely for financial aid and academic standing reasons. You need to complete a percentage of credits you attempt to keep financial aid, the W, I and Audit DO NOT come up in GPA hours, thus meaning non-punitive, but DO come up as attempted credits. If LSAC decides to count them as Fs, I will be going very far to fix it.

woeisme wrote:Withdrawn classes (those that weren't withdrawn to avoid an F and were deemed not punitive) are not counted in GPA, as far as I know.


That was my understanding of it for a very long time, and only recently have I noticed this language on the LSAC website.

"Failing Grades
Any grade notation that signifies failure (such as No Credit, No Credit/Fail, Not Passing, Incomplete/Fail, Withdraw/Fail, Unsatisfactory, Fail, etc.) is converted to zero on the 4.0 scale and is included in the calculation of the GPA, even if the issuing school considers the grade to be nonpunitive. Failure is defined as credit attempted but not earned. If a transcript is not clear about credit attempted, LSAC staff will contact the registrar at the issuing school to confirm whether course credit was attempted. Incomplete and Withdraw grades considered punitive by the issuing school will be included in the conversion. The only exception to this policy is for No Credit, Withdraw/Fail, repeated courses, and incomplete grades specifically explained in Grades Excluded From Conversion."

From http://www.lsac.org/policies/transcript ... zation.asp


Yeah but that's not inconsistent. That contemplates withdraw-fails. We're talking about withdraw no-fail.


I get what you're saying, but that bolded part is what I think is giving both ryanfaro and me pause. If the school keeps track of attempted hours, how will they look at hours attempted with no credit given? That seems pretty unequivocal to me, which is where the concern comes from.

hibye
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Re: anybody else's university considered "W" as credit attempted

Postby hibye » Sun Jun 03, 2012 11:18 pm

Check your school's policy here:

http://www.lsac.org/Members/TranscriptK ... earch.aspx

If the grade you got is under the Excluded category - that is, if it is Unconverted, Omitted, or Nonpunitive, you should be ok.
If the grade you got is under the "Excluded from School's GPA:" area, you're in trouble.

At least, this is what I believe. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong!

ryanfaro
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Re: anybody else's university considered "W" as credit attempted

Postby ryanfaro » Sun Jun 03, 2012 11:33 pm

This was very helpful, thank you very much

Excellent117
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Re: anybody else's university considered "W" as credit attempted

Postby Excellent117 » Sun Jun 03, 2012 11:49 pm

My school considered classes with W's as non-punitive, but also as "credit attempted." I had two W's in college, so I graduated with 120 credits completed, yet had 126 credits attempted. My LSAC GPA was the same as my school GPA, so as far as I could tell, there were no negative consequences for the credit attempted W's.

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NoodleyOne
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Re: anybody else's university considered "W" as credit attempted

Postby NoodleyOne » Sun Jun 03, 2012 11:49 pm

hibye wrote:Check your school's policy here:

http://www.lsac.org/Members/TranscriptK ... earch.aspx

If the grade you got is under the Excluded category - that is, if it is Unconverted, Omitted, or Nonpunitive, you should be ok.
If the grade you got is under the "Excluded from School's GPA:" area, you're in trouble.

At least, this is what I believe. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong!


Thank you... that's a load off of my mind.

cherylann
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Re: anybody else's university considered "W" as credit attempted

Postby cherylann » Sat Jun 23, 2012 1:23 pm

I am glad to see this thread, since I have been worried sick about the same thing for over 6 months. Where even though the Withdrawal is clearly not punitive, it lists attempted hours and I was worried LSAC would count it as an F. Well, I still am confused and hoping someone can help me:

Thankfully, today, I discovered the: Law School Admission Council Interpretive Guide to Undergraduate Grading Systems website on the LSAC page....I typed in my school name and it said Grades Excluded from Both LSAC and School Calculation: AU,IN,IP,NA,NR,R,W......So it has the W grade as excluded.

I am still somewhat confused and there are more questions I still have:

It lists that LSAC counts F grades from school as: 0.00 (F = 0.0,U,NF,SF,Z)

1. So my first question is YES, clearly the W grades are excluded from my school, but I had one semester of W grades because I had surgery and my transcript says below that semester of W grades: (Gpa hours: 0.00, Credits attempted: 12, credits earned: 0.00, gpa: 0.00) It says term gpa is 0.00 because I just had W grades (so obviously what else would they post as term gpa) and LSAC can still see it didnt affect the accumulative gpa that was printed below that semester....So I am worried because since they said term gpa was 0.00 from having W's (even though they didnt hurt) me, Will LSAC just look at the 0.00 and count it as 12 hours of F, even though they were Withdrawals and it said they dont count W grades from my school? They do post above F=0.00, U, NF, SF, Z) so will having 0.00 there (even though it didnt affect my accum gpa) be interpreted as F x 12 hours?
2. When did they post the guide on LSAC of undergraduate grading systems? Is it fairly new? Was it from this year? How accurate would it be?

If anyone can help me, I would so appreciate so much. I have been worried sick for months. I call LSAC and they dont understand what I am asking no matter how much I try to explain.

ryanfaro
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Re: anybody else's university considered "W" as credit attempted

Postby ryanfaro » Sat Jun 23, 2012 6:07 pm

cherylann wrote:I am glad to see this thread, since I have been worried sick about the same thing for over 6 months. Where even though the Withdrawal is clearly not punitive, it lists attempted hours and I was worried LSAC would count it as an F. Well, I still am confused and hoping someone can help me:

Thankfully, today, I discovered the: Law School Admission Council Interpretive Guide to Undergraduate Grading Systems website on the LSAC page....I typed in my school name and it said Grades Excluded from Both LSAC and School Calculation: AU,IN,IP,NA,NR,R,W......So it has the W grade as excluded.

I am still somewhat confused and there are more questions I still have:

It lists that LSAC counts F grades from school as: 0.00 (F = 0.0,U,NF,SF,Z)

1. So my first question is YES, clearly the W grades are excluded from my school, but I had one semester of W grades because I had surgery and my transcript says below that semester of W grades: (Gpa hours: 0.00, Credits attempted: 12, credits earned: 0.00, gpa: 0.00) It says term gpa is 0.00 because I just had W grades (so obviously what else would they post as term gpa) and LSAC can still see it didnt affect the accumulative gpa that was printed below that semester....So I am worried because since they said term gpa was 0.00 from having W's (even though they didnt hurt) me, Will LSAC just look at the 0.00 and count it as 12 hours of F, even though they were Withdrawals and it said they dont count W grades from my school? They do post above F=0.00, U, NF, SF, Z) so will having 0.00 there (even though it didnt affect my accum gpa) be interpreted as F x 12 hours?
2. When did they post the guide on LSAC of undergraduate grading systems? Is it fairly new? Was it from this year? How accurate would it be?

If anyone can help me, I would so appreciate so much. I have been worried sick for months. I call LSAC and they dont understand what I am asking no matter how much I try to explain.


Let me try to help. see the GPA hours section? That's how many credits went towards your gpa. had It been 12, your gpa would actually be 0. It just says 0 because nothing is applicable that semester. look at previous terms. see how gpa hours is there? it looks like you are perfectly fine.

Oh and LSAC looks at each credit, not semester by semester. They are forced to evaluate each class individually due to their GPa formula, this is what I'm told here.

powder
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Re: anybody else's university considered "W" as credit attempted

Postby powder » Sat Jun 23, 2012 8:01 pm

Excellent117 wrote:My school considered classes with W's as non-punitive, but also as "credit attempted." I had two W's in college, so I graduated with 120 credits completed, yet had 126 credits attempted. My LSAC GPA was the same as my school GPA, so as far as I could tell, there were no negative consequences for the credit attempted W's.


Same here. I looked closely at my transcript and it listed my Ws as "credit attempted", but the LSAC GPA exactly matched my school's calculated GPA. As long as it's not punitive, don't worry about it. Submit the transcript, check LSAC, then breathe a sigh of relief when you realize you worried over nothing.

barberiolisa
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Re: anybody else's university considered "W" as credit attempted

Postby barberiolisa » Thu Dec 06, 2012 2:14 pm

I also have a question regarding Withdrawals. My school doesnt consider W grades punitive and they have never hurt my gpa, and I called and asked and W grades from my school are omitted, however, one semester I had straight Withdrawals for medical reasons and those didnt effect my gpa, but the notation 'Semester Warning' was written on my transcript. Because my school does that if there is nothing applicable that semester, but even though LSAC will see those W grades didnt effect my gpa, will they be confused where it says Semester Warning and decide to count them all as F's?

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NoodleyOne
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Re: anybody else's university considered "W" as credit attempted

Postby NoodleyOne » Fri Dec 07, 2012 5:27 am

barberiolisa wrote:I also have a question regarding Withdrawals. My school doesnt consider W grades punitive and they have never hurt my gpa, and I called and asked and W grades from my school are omitted, however, one semester I had straight Withdrawals for medical reasons and those didnt effect my gpa, but the notation 'Semester Warning' was written on my transcript. Because my school does that if there is nothing applicable that semester, but even though LSAC will see those W grades didnt effect my gpa, will they be confused where it says Semester Warning and decide to count them all as F's?

Write an addendum.

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Zoomie
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Re: anybody else's university considered "W" as credit attempted

Postby Zoomie » Fri Dec 07, 2012 10:50 am

I'm not sure how my UG school calculated them, but they were W's on my transcripts. LSAC counted them as F's. I withdrew after the drop date on 5 classes. I wrote a GPA addendum explaining the circumstances that surrounded those 2 semesters but they are listed as W/F's with LSAC. It severely affected my GPA with LSAC and it's not the same GPA that my transcript shows.

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TripTrip
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Re: anybody else's university considered "W" as credit attempted

Postby TripTrip » Fri Dec 07, 2012 2:14 pm

NoodleyOne wrote:
barberiolisa wrote:I also have a question regarding Withdrawals. My school doesnt consider W grades punitive and they have never hurt my gpa, and I called and asked and W grades from my school are omitted, however, one semester I had straight Withdrawals for medical reasons and those didnt effect my gpa, but the notation 'Semester Warning' was written on my transcript. Because my school does that if there is nothing applicable that semester, but even though LSAC will see those W grades didnt effect my gpa, will they be confused where it says Semester Warning and decide to count them all as F's?

Write an addendum.

You mean appeal to LSAC if that happens. I don't see why it would happen, but if it did it would be better for LSAC to correct it than to submit an addendum to each school trying to explain it.

barberiolisa
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Re: anybody else's university considered "W" as credit attempted

Postby barberiolisa » Fri Dec 07, 2012 4:17 pm

Are you sure they were actually W's on the transcript that were counted as failures? Because LSAC claims that if the W doesnt effect your gpa, they will follow the University's lead, well now this has me more worried. There was a link someone shared on here where you could look up your school, and it shows what grades are omitted and W's were omitted from my school. Then when I call LSAC, they wont tell me anything, they just say "we have to have the transcript on file before we can tell you anything". Its hopeless....

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somewhatwayward
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Re: anybody else's university considered "W" as credit attempted

Postby somewhatwayward » Fri Dec 07, 2012 4:37 pm

The way it worked at my undergrad was if you withdrew within the first five weeks, nothing was put on your transcript. If you withdrew within the first seven weeks, you got a W. After that, I am not sure what would happen because I never tried to withdraw later than that. Despite the relatively lax policy, I managed to rack up 3 Ws. I was not failing any of the classes when I withdrew, but my school didn't use the W/P and W/F notation. AFAIK you could withdraw within the first seven weeks even if you were failing and all you would get was a W. LSAC ignored my Ws and my GPA matched the one on my transcript.

barberiolisa
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Re: anybody else's university considered "W" as credit attempted

Postby barberiolisa » Fri Dec 07, 2012 7:06 pm

Thanks, that comment was really helpful. My school transcript clearly states W's are non-punitive and so does another link on this thread when I type in my school (Kent State University) it states W's are omitted from gpa calculation for the school and LSAC. When you had your withdrawals on the transcript, under the transcript totals where it posts attempted hours, did it still list attempted hours in the transcript totals for the W's?

The LSAC policy regarding transcript summarization that is written sure contradicts itself in several places. In one place it says W grades are omitted, then elsewhere it says, "failure is defined as credit attempted but not earned" but obviously when you withdrawal credit is attempted. Then in one place it says WF's are omitted if school deems them non-punitive and then elsewhere it says Withdrawal/Failure is defined as failure even if schools says non-punitive. I dont know what anyone else thinks but its impossible to even make sense of what they wrote in the link I pasted below:

http://www.lsac.org/policies/transcript ... p#excluded

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Zoomie
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Re: anybody else's university considered "W" as credit attempted

Postby Zoomie » Fri Dec 07, 2012 10:21 pm

I'm glad you asked this question. I am considering appealing some of my w's.

barberiolisa
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Re: anybody else's university considered "W" as credit attempted

Postby barberiolisa » Fri Dec 07, 2012 10:50 pm

do you know why they treated the W's as WF's? was it simply a mistake they made?

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Zoomie
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Re: anybody else's university considered "W" as credit attempted

Postby Zoomie » Sat Dec 08, 2012 12:30 am

I really don't know. I'm going to call on Monday. I dropped a few classes in 2 separate semesters after the drop date and they were w's on my transcript. I can't get in to my unofficial transcript on the school portal now to check it out, I'm assuming because I graduated.




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