What is the problem with surplus lawyers?

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Bigsby
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What is the problem with surplus lawyers?

Postby Bigsby » Wed May 30, 2012 2:13 pm

Hey everyone,

I was just thinking the other day about the problem of surplus J.D's being pushed out every year. It seems to me that there are many, MANY law schools that are just completely useless in every way and that, if you're not going to a T14 through T1 (T1 with money of course), you should not even bother going (even if you want to be a lawyer)...because you simply won't get a job...or a good job.

So I was thinking about this and how people are saying that the legal market is oversaturated with lawyers. While I completely agree with that, is that actually affecting the job market for good legal jobs? I figure since when a law firm recruiter looks at resumes, sees one of the so-called 'useless' law schools written at the top, they just toss it out and hunt down the resumes from good law schools. So if these useless JDs are being thrown to the wayside, how does the oversaturation of these 'low-quality JD's' affect job prospects? It is still only the JDs from good schools that will be getting any attention (even then, you have to cross fingers!) so I was wondering how this worked.

I'm a 0L as of now but I just wanted to educate myself on the situation as I've always wondered this and I'm sure there is an answer to my questions...figured this would be the best place to ask.

Thank you!

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dowu
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Re: What is the problem with surplus lawyers?

Postby dowu » Wed May 30, 2012 2:20 pm

:shock: :shock:
Last edited by dowu on Sun Apr 17, 2016 11:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

taxguy
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Re: What is the problem with surplus lawyers?

Postby taxguy » Wed May 30, 2012 2:31 pm

nmop_apisdn wrote:I think its more of the fact that there aren't enough jobs to cover the amount of students graduating from law schools.

20k new law jobs per year < 40k lawl graduates per year.

In effect, the jobs will mainly go to the students who went to the best schools. Why would they choose students who went to lesser schools if they can choose them from top schools?

So yeah, way too many people are going to law school when you consider the amount of jerbs out there. HTH


Here is the big exception: Networking! If a student hussles, meets lots of lawyers , uses their connections to make contacts, they will have a decent shot at a good legal job over those that don't use these techniques. My son is studying at Nova Southeastern. No one will argue that Nova is a T1-T3 law school. However, he has a solid connection at a well known estate planning firm when he graduates. How did this happen? He happened to meet one of the firm partners at a continuing education program who took a liking to him. Moreover, he won't even be working there since he has another connection with a large firm that he prefers.The key is to network! I promise you that this will beat out many kids who attend t1 schools who don't network a lot. I even know two kids who just got hired by major firms and who attended Florida Coastal, which is arguably one of the lowest ranked law schools in the nation. You can whine about the lack of ranking of your school, lack of grades at law school, the lack of being a full moon tonight, OR you can take things into your own hands and make as many connections as possible.

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Mr. Pancakes
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Re: What is the problem with surplus lawyers?

Postby Mr. Pancakes » Wed May 30, 2012 2:36 pm

Nova is TTTT not t1-t3

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chem
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Re: What is the problem with surplus lawyers?

Postby chem » Wed May 30, 2012 2:37 pm

I think the gist of the question is, which hasnt been answered fully yet, is how does the surplus of lawyers hurt people graduating from the best schools, because that surplus of people at the lower ranked schools wouldn't affect the hiring of people from the best schools, because the surplus was never looked at for jobs in the first place

Sorry for bad sentence. reading my 8th consecutive MPEP chapter, everything is a little fuzzy

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buckilaw
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Re: What is the problem with surplus lawyers?

Postby buckilaw » Wed May 30, 2012 2:52 pm

taxguy wrote:
Here is the big exception: Networking! If a student hussles, meets lots of lawyers , uses their connections to make contacts, they will have a decent shot at a good legal job over those that don't use these techniques. My son is studying at Nova Southeastern.


Several of my friends from undergrad and highschool are currently attending T3 schools. When they discuss job prospects they ALL tell me that they plan to network/hustle to find a good job. Networking at schools that have sub-par job prospects isn't sufficient to get a job, it's necessary. Putting forth the effort to network does not make you a special snowflake. Networking is not an exception, it's the rule, and you can't depend on it.

taxguy wrote:
No one will argue that Nova is a T1-T3 law school.


LOL...this is an interesting way of describing tiers of schools.

taxguy wrote:However, he has a solid connection at a well known estate planning firm when he graduates. How did this happen? He happened to meet one of the firm partners at a continuing education program who took a liking to him. Moreover, he won't even be working there since he has another connection with a large firm that he prefers.The key is to network! I promise you that this will beat out many kids who attend t1 schools who don't network a lot. I even know two kids who just got hired by major firms and who attended Florida Coastal, which is arguably one of the lowest ranked law schools in the nation. You can whine about the lack of ranking of your school, lack of grades at law school, the lack of being a full moon tonight, OR you can take things into your own hands and make as many connections as possible.


If this is true that's great but by rule not everyone can network into a job, there are 40k students with under 20k openings, you cannot depend on networking alone, if you could then students with an LSAT above 163 would take the automatic free ride at Cooley.

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RedBirds2011
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Re: What is the problem with surplus lawyers?

Postby RedBirds2011 » Wed May 30, 2012 2:54 pm

buckilaw wrote:
taxguy wrote:
Here is the big exception: Networking! If a student hussles, meets lots of lawyers , uses their connections to make contacts, they will have a decent shot at a good legal job over those that don't use these techniques. My son is studying at Nova Southeastern.


Several of my friends from undergrad and highschool are currently attending T3 schools. When they discuss job prospects they ALL tell me that they plan to network/hustle to find a good job. Networking at schools that have sub-par job prospects isn't sufficient to get a job, it's necessary. Putting forth the effort to network does not make you a special snowflake. Networking is not an exception, it's the rule, and you can't depend on it.

taxguy wrote:
No one will argue that Nova is a T1-T3 law school.


LOL...this is an interesting way of describing tiers of schools.

taxguy wrote:However, he has a solid connection at a well known estate planning firm when he graduates. How did this happen? He happened to meet one of the firm partners at a continuing education program who took a liking to him. Moreover, he won't even be working there since he has another connection with a large firm that he prefers.The key is to network! I promise you that this will beat out many kids who attend t1 schools who don't network a lot. I even know two kids who just got hired by major firms and who attended Florida Coastal, which is arguably one of the lowest ranked law schools in the nation. You can whine about the lack of ranking of your school, lack of grades at law school, the lack of being a full moon tonight, OR you can take things into your own hands and make as many connections as possible.


If this is true that's great but by rule not everyone can network into a job, there are 40k students with under 20k openings, you cannot depend on networking alone, if you could then students with an LSAT above 163 would take the automatic free ride at Cooley.



While I don't really disagree with you, I think you greatly underestimate how absolutely terrible the average law student is at networking.

redbullvodka
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Re: What is the problem with surplus lawyers?

Postby redbullvodka » Wed May 30, 2012 2:55 pm

chem wrote:I think the gist of the question is, which hasnt been answered fully yet, is how does the surplus of lawyers hurt people graduating from the best schools, because that surplus of people at the lower ranked schools wouldn't affect the hiring of people from the best schools, because the surplus was never looked at for jobs in the first place

Sorry for bad sentence. reading my 8th consecutive MPEP chapter, everything is a little fuzzy



+1

I think sometimes two situations get conflated: a contracted (but I think now stable) biglaw market with a horrendous oversupply of lawyers. The two aren't really related. There was an "oversupply" of biglaw lawyers in the sense that bigfirms were biting off more than they could chew with 100+ summer associate classes, but the oversupply talked about in the media has much more to do with a ton of bad law schools putting out highly indebted law grads.

Biglaw job prospects will be slightly affected at the high end by smaller classes, and the glut of deferred associates (this has almost worked itself out), but the 20,000 lawyer shortfall does not really affect these t14 grads. They may have less opportunity to go solo, and there has been a slight reduction in midlaw firms because of industry consolidation, but their job prospects are not strongly correlated with that shortfall. Other things (mainly caused by the financial sector's breakdown four years ago) have reshapen the biglaw outlook for t14 grads.




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