Need advice please! Re Letters of recomendations

(Applications Advice, Letters of Recommendation . . . )
MrAnon
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Re: Need advice please! Re Letters of recomendations

Postby MrAnon » Thu May 24, 2012 5:34 pm

laxbrah420 wrote:
MrAnon wrote:It won't matter. Just submit one letter of rec if that's all you can get. A school will still take you. I'm not kidding. Schools are now sending out offers of open acceptance to people based on GMAT scores. Rutgers is doing that anyway. Schools outside of the T14 just need paying bodies nowadays. These "requirements" of rec letters and stuff are just pomp to make you think you are undertaking a serious endeavor.

Have you applied to law school?


Yes. If your LSAT and GPA are in the schools target, and the school needs people, they will let you in.

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Br3v
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Re: Need advice please! Re Letters of recomendations

Postby Br3v » Thu May 24, 2012 5:39 pm

MrAnon wrote:
laxbrah420 wrote:
MrAnon wrote:It won't matter. Just submit one letter of rec if that's all you can get. A school will still take you. I'm not kidding. Schools are now sending out offers of open acceptance to people based on GMAT scores. Rutgers is doing that anyway. Schools outside of the T14 just need paying bodies nowadays. These "requirements" of rec letters and stuff are just pomp to make you think you are undertaking a serious endeavor.

Have you applied to law school?


Yes. If your LSAT and GPA are in the schools target, and the school needs people, they will let you in.


Honestly this thread is full of horrible advice and should probably just be locked.

OP: it's ok to not have academic LoR if out of UG. It's normal to have employeer letters. If you can afford $ and time wise to do the CC thing then sure, though I think it is almost a waste.

Your gpa (which you acknowledge) will not improve with more classes.

Best use of your time is study and break 170 on LSAT.

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BVest
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Re: Need advice please! Re Letters of recomendations

Postby BVest » Fri May 25, 2012 12:28 am

Br3v wrote:Honestly this thread is full of horrible advice and should probably just be locked.

OP: it's ok to not have academic LoR if out of UG. It's normal to have employeer letters.


That's rich coming from the source of it.

Yes, it's normal for people to have employer letters, when they've actually worked. And no, 1-1/2 years, is not significant WE, and certainly not enough to have more than 1 work LOR unless the OP job-hops. Further, being only 18 months out and having no academic letters is a concern.

And FWIW, as the OP anticipates, WUSTL actually requires 2 LOR.

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Br3v
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Re: Need advice please! Re Letters of recomendations

Postby Br3v » Fri May 25, 2012 12:30 am

BVest wrote:
Br3v wrote:Honestly this thread is full of horrible advice and should probably just be locked.

OP: it's ok to not have academic LoR if out of UG. It's normal to have employeer letters.


That's rich coming from the source of it.

Yes, it's normal for people to have employer letters, when they've actually worked. And no, 1-1/2 years, is not significant WE, and certainly not enough to have more than 1 work LOR unless the OP job-hops. Further, being only 18 months out and having no academic letters is a concern.

And FWIW, as the OP anticipates, WUSTL actually requires 2 LOR.


For sake of OP, point to one piece of advice I have given ITT you would disagree with?

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BVest
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Re: Need advice please! Re Letters of recomendations

Postby BVest » Fri May 25, 2012 1:04 am

Seriously? Ok.

Br3v wrote:OP break 170 on LSAT and you will have a great shot. Also, splitters rarely get $ from schools.


Great shot with a 170 or better comes with several years of work experience. And splitters get plenty of money if the school needs the LSATs (and as posted above, WUSTL itself throws money at splitters).

Br3v wrote:OP do not waste the time and $ going to school again to get grades that won't matter just so you can get a LoR. If your a few yrs out of school, LS's expect you to have a hard time getting professor LoRs so go with a employer.


OP is one year out. Not several. And she has gotten a LOR from an employer. One. She's looking to get more.

Br3v wrote:OP: it's ok to not have academic LoR if out of UG. It's normal to have employeer letters. If you can afford $ and time wise to do the CC thing then sure, though I think it is almost a waste.


OP is barely out of UG (12 months... 18 by the time she's applying), and it's not okay to have no academic LOR. She has a poor academic record and it is very recent. She needs some way of showing that she is capable academically and that will only come with either more school or an academic LOR. I recommended additional school just for the opportunity to get an academic LOR (since she cannot think of a single professor from UG who would give her one.


Now that that is done, I challenge you to return serve. What advice have I given that you disagree with? You already said about me "You have filled this thread with bad advice. I'm not being mean, but stop unless you know what you are talking about." Yet you've failed to rebut.

Jchan
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Re: Need advice please! Re Letters of recomendations

Postby Jchan » Fri May 25, 2012 1:38 am

BVest wrote:
Br3v wrote:Honestly this thread is full of horrible advice and should probably just be locked.

OP: it's ok to not have academic LoR if out of UG. It's normal to have employeer letters.


That's rich coming from the source of it.

Yes, it's normal for people to have employer letters, when they've actually worked. And no, 1-1/2 years, is not significant WE, and certainly not enough to have more than 1 work LOR unless the OP job-hops. Further, being only 18 months out and having no academic letters is a concern.

And FWIW, as the OP anticipates, WUSTL actually requires 2 LOR.




Yea I did look up that they want two, as do most schools, although WUSTL didn't specify where they would come from, but I get the idea. That's why I'm trying to see if there's anything I can do about it. Also, I don't have my heart set on that school.. it's def. my super duper goal school

Yes I have only worked there full time for one year, but I actually have been there during winter/summer breaks (full time for half a year everyyear)for 6 years prior to graduation. So technically my employer would write that I'd been there/he's known me for 7 years..
Hmm I've also done one summer internship at a law office my junior year, not that it's above and beyond but just hoping to throw a lil bit more of my background in to give you a better idea
Not trying to justify anything here, I know i screwed up but that is the past, and i cant do anything about my gpa and suddenly become bff with a professor. I can possibly ask a mere couple, but dont really know how to. It's so awkwardd . I hear they are used to ppl hitting them up for LORS, but the idea of doing so scares the crap out of me.

JohnDorian
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Re: Need advice please! Re Letters of recomendations

Postby JohnDorian » Fri May 25, 2012 2:20 pm

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Last edited by JohnDorian on Mon Jun 04, 2012 3:38 am, edited 1 time in total.

Jchan
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Re: Need advice please! Re Letters of recomendations

Postby Jchan » Fri May 25, 2012 4:58 pm

JohnDorian wrote:This will be douched by the guy that took over the thread for the purpose of promoting his own "superiority" and talking down others, but you really should avoid having no academic LOR.

Schools that accept splitters with high LSATS generally look for something in the application explaining that (or something telling them that you won't do the same at their school). It could be an addenda, an academic LOR, a personal statement, etc. Lacking any academic LOR will only add to an admissions committee's hesitation with accepting you.

Consider you were on an admissions committee and someone had a stellar LSAT but a (really) low GPA. What would make you believe that he's prepared to actually work/go to class? You're going to look straight for an academic LOR; this is why many schools (including WULS) ask for LORs to give them insight into your academic abilities.

From WULS admissions website: "The most helpful letters include commentary on specific examples of your academic ability, energy, motivation, discipline, character, and other qualitative variables."

When they go to look for it, and it's not there, that's definitely going to hurt you. It may not put you out of the game 100%, but there's usually a splitter with some tragic tale about how everyone in their family died, they themselves had major surgery, or something of that sort that's going to have academic LORs to prove that they're USUALLY good at academics. Other splitters claim that they have an upward trend, and they've learned something since--LORs give them the opportunity to have a teacher explain that they've witnessed improvement, etc.

Look at the splitters from past years at your target (washu) on LSN. A 170 gives you a very good chance at getting accepted, but there's a reason for the denys/waitlists there: there was probably a red flag in their softs. Don't have that red flag.

Here's my advice to you (it's worked out for many people in your situation): You had to have gotten an A or two (hopefully more, but who knows what your transcript looks like) in your undergrad. You can email old professors that you've had (avoiding face to face is okay because many will expect you to be in a different area than where you went to school) and tell them about yourself a little and remind them of the grade you got in their class; then, explain you are applying to law school a year out of school and are having trouble finding old professors. Ask them if they feel they could write a strong LOR for you. If you have ANY old assignment from the class somewhere on your computer that can show him your writing ability, attach it to that email. If the professor says he/she feels confident he can help you out, you will likely get a decent academic LOR (it won't be stellar, but it will at least show that you can succeed academically and have professors that like you).

Note: The professor doesn't have to remember you, I've talked to plenty of professors and they rarely remember most UG students a year out. Most are still willing to write.

Other options:
1) Thirty hours of UG A's will raise your GPA to a 2.9/3 and will give you professors to write strong LORs (you can do this part/full time--whatever works with your work schedule). (remember, law firms will see your UG GPA too, so this would help on both ends).

2) A graduate degree of some sort will give you additional credentials (that will help with firms and law school) as well as give you professors to wrote LORs (this will not affect LSAC GPA).

3) A substantially high LSAT will give you a great chance of admittance (175+ is rarely waitlisted at washu, and I've even seen some Northwestern acceptances when this happened).

I'm sure there are more options and there are plenty of other threads about splitters (including stuff on LORs). If you only read responses on this thread, you're limiting yourself from the information and advice throughout the forum.


Regardless, you should write a good addendum about how you've learned from your mistakes and feel prepared for academics. Bad softs can break you if you're on the line, and good softs can make you (this is even more true when you are a splitter).


Good luck!


Thanks!

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BVest
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Re: Need advice please! Re Letters of recomendations

Postby BVest » Fri May 25, 2012 5:21 pm

JohnDorian wrote:Other options:
1) Thirty hours of UG A's will raise your GPA to a 2.9/3 and will give you professors to write strong LORs (you can do this part/full time--whatever works with your work schedule). (remember, law firms will see your UG GPA too, so this would help on both ends).


She's already gotten her sheepskin, so she can't change LSDAS GPA at this point, but a few more classes would give her professors to write for her.

Otherwise sound advice throughout. BTW, I did have a professor from several years back tell me he'd prefer not to write for me (due to memory... I aced everything I took from him and worked hard doing it) but he helped me think through who would be better and said "if Prof X won't, let me know and I will." It can be awkward, but I like the idea of email (I would have felt sheepish doing that since I office 10 blocks from campus).

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hyakku
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Re: Need advice please! Re Letters of recomendations

Postby hyakku » Sat May 26, 2012 2:19 pm

JohnDorian wrote:
Br3v wrote:
JohnDorian wrote:
Jchan wrote:Hi guys, ive been out of school for just one year, but had an extremely low gpa.. That being said, most schools require like 2 LORs. I have no problem getting one from my current employer, but am going nuts trying to find another person in the universe who would write one for me. As previously stated, i had terrible grades.. Also, none of the professors even knew i existed frankly apeaking and the classes i did do well on, i just never went to class..so i dont think they are able to write me one thatll blow an admissions officers mind.. Soooo can anybody think of another way to get any LoRs that are non academic? Im not sure where i want to go to law school yet, but WUStL is on my mind. I have a 2.6 gpa, what hurts me a lot is that i have equal number of F's as i do A's but am hoping that a high LSAT score (+170ish) will save me.

I was told that i can volunteer to get a LoR from my undergrad academic advisor? If this is true, do you think half a year of Doing so will be enough to convince law schools since im trying to apply in october or will they see right thru me? :( also, any recommendations on what to even volunteer for? Or what not to?

Any advice is greatly appreciated! Thanks in advance!



You sound like a shitty student man. Your undergrad academic advisor isn't a professor--and law schools like to see LORs from professors to weed out people like you.

Go back to school, get a minor or something, (or if you still have a half a year left, bust your ass in classes and ACTUALLY GO), that way you can get a professor to write something nice about you.

It's that, or you can get a professor that doesn't remember you to write a generic recommendation that won't help but might not hurt.


The advice your giving. Stop it.

OP do not waste the time and $ going to school again to get grades that won't matter just so you can get a LoR. If your a few yrs out of school, LS's expect you to have a hard time getting professor LoRs so go with a employer. Why would you want a LoR from someone who probably did bad in anyways? Also volunteering would not show your academic abilities to the professor, the one thing the LoR should mention.

People presumably have mediocre LoRs all the time from profs who barely remember them. The only way I think a LoR would actually hurt is if it was negative. As in, dot accept this student.



You can get a minor in 1 year, 10-12 As (depending on how many credit hours he's taking) would drastically increase such a low GPA, and it would give him professors that could write decent LORs.

Law schools are hesitant to take splitters with this drastic of a gpa/lsat difference and they look to softs often. You generally have to be a few years out for law schools to not expect LORs from professors, and even then they stress the importance of getting professors. If you don't have a professor LOR and you're not WAY out, they will assume it's because you're a shitty student or can't follow instructions asking for one (especially with this GPA).

tl;dr The splitters mentioned that got into decent schools had good softs including LORs. There's no other reason to trust that low of a GPA.

Also, stop correcting people with stupid points. OBVIOUSLY a high lsat will outweigh shitty LORs and OBVIOUSLY people get in with crappy LORs. But if he's got the high LSAT and wants to get into the best law schools he can get into with his GPA, he needs to have the LOR. He doesn't have the room in his app for any more weaknesses.



Do not listen to this guy or bvest. Have you even applied to school?

From LSAC:

Grades Excluded From Conversion
Withdraw, Withdraw/Pass—only if the issuing school considers the grade nonpunitive.
Incomplete—only if the issuing school considers the grade nonpunitive.
Those given for remedial courses only if the transcript clearly indicates they are remedial.
Those awarded after the first undergraduate degree was received.


You're telling him to go waste potentially thousands of dollars on something that won't work. Stop giving advice on these things, you can seriously fuck a persons life up.

OP, first you're going to need an LSAT score. Since you're already committed to taking it, you might as well just studys and try to kill it. On LSN its clear that there are those with your stats getting in, and all of them don't have incredible softs or are URMS. Is your shot good? Probably not, but if you can really kill it you will still have a shot with a small amount of cash.

As for getting a LOR, unless there's really ONE local class you are actually interested in that's cheap and you can afford to go to it without sacrificing work, you should probably just send in two professional LORs. Although, learning flamenco or something could be fun if you just wanted a quick ref. In most cases obviously a dancing teachers ref wouldn't be as highly valued as say a math teachers, but let's be honest here: WUSTL isnt expecting your academic LORs to be stellar with your GPA (mine was low too, just being realistic). Even if they were, they'd probably assume the teacher just liked you a lot unless you've got a world class's novelist to persuade them.

Edit: You could includ a gpa addendum as well, but honestly even with a recommendation and an addendum your app is really going to stand on the merit of your LSAT. Unless of course, you can really find a Kafka to blow their minds. Then by all means take the shit out of that guys class for a ref, but I find there are few Kafka-esque profs just lying around :lol:

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BVest
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Re: Need advice please! Re Letters of recomendations

Postby BVest » Sat May 26, 2012 10:31 pm

hyakku wrote:Do not listen to this guy or bvest. Have you even applied to school?

From LSAC:

Grades Excluded From Conversion
Withdraw, Withdraw/Pass—only if the issuing school considers the grade nonpunitive.
Incomplete—only if the issuing school considers the grade nonpunitive.
Those given for remedial courses only if the transcript clearly indicates they are remedial.
Those awarded after the first undergraduate degree was received.



What the hell? Show me where I said anything other than this. To the contrary, I actually said this very thing. Take a look one post up. So maybe try brushing up on your reading comp skills before the fall.




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