Every pre-law should see this.

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Qwerty12345
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Every pre-law should see this.

Postby Qwerty12345 » Sun May 20, 2012 12:56 am

Hello,

Maybe this has been posted before, and maybe this is the wrong section/not useful to post this, but I came across it and thought that I should post it. Does anyone know where it is possible to find a recent chart comparing the expected number of billable hours across and between the different types of private firms, their size and location, as well as in public service, please?

http://www.law.yale.edu/documents/pdf/C ... e_hour.pdf

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LSATsmasher
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Re: Every pre-law should see this.

Postby LSATsmasher » Sun May 20, 2012 2:00 am

Why wouldn't I just bill for my coffee break?

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Tom Joad
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Re: Every pre-law should see this.

Postby Tom Joad » Sun May 20, 2012 2:04 am

Yeah that sucks but who needs 3 weeks of vacay and hour long meals?

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Jaeger
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Re: Every pre-law should see this.

Postby Jaeger » Sun May 20, 2012 10:58 am

Tom Joad wrote:Yeah that sucks but who needs 3 weeks of vacay and hour long meals?


Europeans.

Qwerty12345
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Re: Every pre-law should see this.

Postby Qwerty12345 » Sun May 20, 2012 11:18 am

Not that it's the point, but it's hardly an hour-long meal. If you go out to a place 10 min away, wait for 10 min for your food to show up, and brush your teeth when you get back, you would have had a 25 min meal (60-10-10-10-5). You could also stay in, order a sandwich and eat it while you catch-up on professional e-mails, because the 30min they give in this document doesn't sound like much.

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RedBirds2011
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Re: Every pre-law should see this.

Postby RedBirds2011 » Sun May 20, 2012 11:35 am

I have never understood the hour long lunch thing. I don't think I have had an hour long lunch since high school.

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sundance95
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Re: Every pre-law should see this.

Postby sundance95 » Sun May 20, 2012 11:42 am

And why wouldn't I bill my bathroom breaks? My stock in trade is my mind's work product and I do my best thinking on the shitter.

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Br3v
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Re: Every pre-law should see this.

Postby Br3v » Sun May 20, 2012 11:56 am

Wait, do most ppl brush their teeth after lunch at work?

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patrickd139
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Re: Every pre-law should see this.

Postby patrickd139 » Sun May 20, 2012 11:59 am

Three weeks vacay AND 2 weeks' holidays? Weak fucking sauce.

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oaken
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Re: Every pre-law should see this.

Postby oaken » Sun May 20, 2012 12:01 pm

Br3v wrote:Wait, do most ppl brush their teeth after lunch at work?


Yes, but they just bill for it.

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JDizzle2015
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Re: Every pre-law should see this.

Postby JDizzle2015 » Sun May 20, 2012 12:21 pm

OP, if you use NALP's advanced search of law firms (most of) their info sheets will say what the suggested billable is for their firm/office. I have not seen an aggregate list of suggested billable hours.

On a side note, if I'm reading this breakdown correctly, it says that if I leave by 8 pm every day: I can take an hour lunch + hour dinner + four 15 min bathroom breaks + get weekends off + 3 WEEKS vacation + 2 WEEKS holiday = still bill ~2000 hours?!? That's a shitload better than a lot of entry-level finance hours (in my experience at least where we routinely stayed in the office until after midnight and maybe got about a week and a half off, accessible by email of course, a year).

This breakdown doesn't make biglaw seem so bad to me at all except that talking to co-workers in the beginning is typically the biggest time drain for me at work--maybe that's different in biglaw and people keep to themselves. I actually feel pretty confident now since I don't think anyone can expect to be making good $$ right out of the gate in law/finance/medicine/etc without working similar hours.

ETA: I don't brush my teeth after lunch... I guess I'm pretty gross.

Younger Abstention
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Re: Every pre-law should see this.

Postby Younger Abstention » Sun May 20, 2012 1:05 pm

Tom Joad wrote:Yeah that sucks but who needs 3 weeks of vacay and hour long meals?


Yalies. :lol:

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dingbat
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Re: Every pre-law should see this.

Postby dingbat » Mon May 21, 2012 12:49 am

JDizzle2015 wrote:OP, if you use NALP's advanced search of law firms (most of) their info sheets will say what the suggested billable is for their firm/office. I have not seen an aggregate list of suggested billable hours.

On a side note, if I'm reading this breakdown correctly, it says that if I leave by 8 pm every day: I can take an hour lunch + hour dinner + four 15 min bathroom breaks + get weekends off + 3 WEEKS vacation + 2 WEEKS holiday = still bill ~2000 hours?!? That's a shitload better than a lot of entry-level finance hours (in my experience at least where we routinely stayed in the office until after midnight and maybe got about a week and a half off, accessible by email of course, a year).

This breakdown doesn't make biglaw seem so bad to me at all except that talking to co-workers in the beginning is typically the biggest time drain for me at work--maybe that's different in biglaw and people keep to themselves. I actually feel pretty confident now since I don't think anyone can expect to be making good $$ right out of the gate in law/finance/medicine/etc without working similar hours.

ETA: I don't brush my teeth after lunch... I guess I'm pretty gross.

The issue is that an hour of work does not equal a billable hour.
Sometimes you need to put in extra, non-billable, work for a task.

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Corsair
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Re: Every pre-law should see this.

Postby Corsair » Mon May 21, 2012 1:29 am

..

Qwerty12345
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Re: Every pre-law should see this.

Postby Qwerty12345 » Mon May 21, 2012 1:30 am

Thanks! The reason I wasn't using NALP is that most of their data originates from 2.5 years ago. It also looks like when setting up their profiles, firms/agencies/etc... have to choose among brackets or approximate numbers, instead of entering their own discrete values. But I suppose it's probably the best source of info out there, besides actually talking to attorneys.

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LSATsmasher
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Re: Every pre-law should see this.

Postby LSATsmasher » Mon May 21, 2012 1:35 am

Corsair wrote:1) lol @ anyone who thinks associates are billing 2000 hours at top firms.

2) lol @ anyone who thinks hours worked are anywhere close to hours billed.



I had no idea TLS existed before I was born; before the late 80's.

Qwerty12345
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Re: Every pre-law should see this.

Postby Qwerty12345 » Mon May 21, 2012 1:43 am

The article merely helps pre-law and law students understand how one can calculate the number of working hours that a particular target number of billable hours will require. They do not say that 2,000 is a realistic number, much less that it would by relevant to a top firm. In fact, whoever wrote the article states: "Firms “average,” “target” or “minimum” stated billables typically range between 1700 and 2300, although informal networks often quote much higher numbers."

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lisjjen
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Re: Every pre-law should see this.

Postby lisjjen » Mon May 21, 2012 1:48 am

(1) fuck (2) I already knew this was what I was going to be doing for a few years. It may sound strange, but I want to do it for the experience, not the money.

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TyrionLannister
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Re: Every pre-law should see this.

Postby TyrionLannister » Mon May 21, 2012 1:50 am

Corsair wrote:1) lol @ anyone who thinks associates are billing 2000 hours at top firms.

2) lol @ anyone who thinks hours worked are anywhere close to hours billed.


Can't speak to #2, but I had lunch last week with a v15 senior associate who swore that his firm expected 2000 from all associates. He made a point to say that there was no unspoken rule about billing more. A firm goal of 2000. I'm not saying all are like this, or even any more than this one firm - I obviously have no personal experience in that world. But your #1 isn't universally true.

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lisjjen
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Re: Every pre-law should see this.

Postby lisjjen » Mon May 21, 2012 1:56 am

TyrionLannister wrote:
Corsair wrote:1) lol @ anyone who thinks associates are billing 2000 hours at top firms.

2) lol @ anyone who thinks hours worked are anywhere close to hours billed.


Can't speak to #2, but I had lunch last week with a v15 senior associate who swore that his firm expected 2000 from all associates. He made a point to say that there was no unspoken rule about billing more. A firm goal of 2000. I'm not saying all are like this, or even any more than this one firm - I obviously have no personal experience in that world. But your #1 isn't universally true.


The wide path is billing as few as you can get away with until you burn out in a few years. 2000 sounds about right. If you want to keep cruising up the chain, it's not that they make you do more, but they kinda expect it.

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TyrionLannister
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Re: Every pre-law should see this.

Postby TyrionLannister » Mon May 21, 2012 2:05 am

lisjjen wrote:
TyrionLannister wrote:
Corsair wrote:1) lol @ anyone who thinks associates are billing 2000 hours at top firms.

2) lol @ anyone who thinks hours worked are anywhere close to hours billed.


Can't speak to #2, but I had lunch last week with a v15 senior associate who swore that his firm expected 2000 from all associates. He made a point to say that there was no unspoken rule about billing more. A firm goal of 2000. I'm not saying all are like this, or even any more than this one firm - I obviously have no personal experience in that world. But your #1 isn't universally true.


The wide path is billing as few as you can get away with until you burn out in a few years. 2000 sounds about right. If you want to keep cruising up the chain, it's not that they make you do more, but they kinda expect it.


I don't doubt that at all. Just loved that this guy has been there for over half a dozen years and loves his job. Not burned out at all, plus was adamant that his firm did not expect more than 2000. I realize that is not the norm. But like I said, it does exist.

Qwerty12345
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Re: Every pre-law should see this.

Postby Qwerty12345 » Mon May 21, 2012 3:07 pm

Does anybody knows if firms (I'm thinking about mid to top NYC firms in particular) would mind if you do your billable hours at completely random times (ie. nocturne schedule, or in on week-ends and holidays, but missing some week-days) as long as you do them? I guess my question is are you entirely free to choose your own schedule?

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dingbat
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Re: Every pre-law should see this.

Postby dingbat » Mon May 21, 2012 3:16 pm

Qwerty12345 wrote:Does anybody knows if firms (I'm thinking about mid to top NYC firms in particular) would mind if you do your billable hours at completely random times (ie. nocturne schedule, or in on week-ends and holidays, but missing some week-days) as long as you do them? I guess my question is are you entirely free to choose your own schedule?

yes and no
firms don't care when you rack up billable hours, as long as you rack them up.
Hell, they expect a certain amount to be racked up weekends and evenings
Doesn't mean you can't just not show up for work
(as one attorney I know put it "bums on seats")

If you do corporate, you're expected to always be available to answer calls. If you want to duck out for an afternoon one day, it shouldn't be a big problem as long as you have your crackberry with you and respond to all queries.
Just don't make a habit out of it.

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sunynp
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Re: Every pre-law should see this.

Postby sunynp » Mon May 21, 2012 3:22 pm

Qwerty12345 wrote:Does anybody knows if firms (I'm thinking about mid to top NYC firms in particular) would mind if you do your billable hours at completely random times (ie. nocturne schedule, or in on week-ends and holidays, but missing some week-days) as long as you do them? I guess my question is are you entirely free to choose your own schedule?


Not sure if serious. You are never free to choose your own schedule. You work when you are needed. At least in corporate, you can't just work on a weekend day and take a weekday off. Things have to be completed on an extremely tight schedule. So you can't think you will finish work on Saturday and just disappear on the preceding Thursday. (for that matter you can't even plan on dinner and the theater that evening and know for sure you will be able to get there until it is time to leave.) And, if you are out of the office, you have to be available and ready to come in as needed. It isn't like school where you can do work at the time that suits you the best.

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dingbat
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Re: Every pre-law should see this.

Postby dingbat » Mon May 21, 2012 3:29 pm

sunynp wrote:
Qwerty12345 wrote:Does anybody knows if firms (I'm thinking about mid to top NYC firms in particular) would mind if you do your billable hours at completely random times (ie. nocturne schedule, or in on week-ends and holidays, but missing some week-days) as long as you do them? I guess my question is are you entirely free to choose your own schedule?


Not sure if serious. You are never free to choose your own schedule. You work when you are needed. At least in corporate, you can't just work on a weekend day and take a weekday off. Things have to be completed on an extremely tight schedule. So you can't think you will finish work on Saturday and just disappear on the preceding Thursday. And, if you are out of the office, you have to be available and ready to come in as needed. It isn't like school where you can do work at the time that suits you the best.

there are very, very rare times when you can choose when to do work on a particular project.
The problem is, when that does happen, you've got other matters to deal with, so it doesn't alleviate the problem.

And, having been a client of biglaw, there's no excuse for a job not being done is a timely manner. To me, that generally meant within 24 hours* if I didn't indicate that there's a rush. If I did indicate a rush, that means however long it takes is too long.
(I do recall maybe 2 or 3 times saying that there was no rush and it was ok for something to take longer, but don't expect that to happen)

*this is for transactional matters. When we needed a legal opinion or something that required real research, of course the time frame would be different




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