Am I crazy for thinking Canada is the best option?

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rayiner
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Re: Am I crazy for thinking Canada is the best option?

Postby rayiner » Wed May 16, 2012 2:36 pm

Tiago Splitter wrote:
rayiner wrote:LOL @ competition being the magic fucking bullet for everything. LOL @ ignoring solutions that clearly work in favor of unproven magic market fairy theories.


All LOLing aside, I'm legitimately curious to hear about this solution that "clearly works." I'm open to any ideas but cost control has to be part of the solution.


The Canadian model works just fine, at half the cost of the American model. If the AMA must be a monopoly, they can be price regulated like any other monopoly.

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Tiago Splitter
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Re: Am I crazy for thinking Canada is the best option?

Postby Tiago Splitter » Wed May 16, 2012 2:43 pm

rayiner wrote:
Tiago Splitter wrote:
rayiner wrote:LOL @ competition being the magic fucking bullet for everything. LOL @ ignoring solutions that clearly work in favor of unproven magic market fairy theories.


All LOLing aside, I'm legitimately curious to hear about this solution that "clearly works." I'm open to any ideas but cost control has to be part of the solution.


The Canadian model works just fine, at half the cost of the American model. If the AMA must be a monopoly, they can be price regulated like any other monopoly.


Fair enough. Just don't tell the gubmint bout my hsa distributions to pay for law school :lol:

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franklyscarlet
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Re: Am I crazy for thinking Canada is the best option?

Postby franklyscarlet » Wed May 16, 2012 2:51 pm

rayiner wrote:
Tiago Splitter wrote:
rayiner wrote:LOL @ competition being the magic fucking bullet for everything. LOL @ ignoring solutions that clearly work in favor of unproven magic market fairy theories.


All LOLing aside, I'm legitimately curious to hear about this solution that "clearly works." I'm open to any ideas but cost control has to be part of the solution.


The Canadian model works just fine, at half the cost of the American model. If the AMA must be a monopoly, they can be price regulated like any other monopoly.


Butting into a discussion I'm not part of to drop this book I've been jazzed about for any interested parties :)

http://www.amazon.com/The-Healing-Ameri ... 1594202346

ConcernedHabsFan
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Re: Am I crazy for thinking Canada is the best option?

Postby ConcernedHabsFan » Wed May 16, 2012 6:09 pm

I would remove UBC unless you are fully confident that you will be paying resident tuition. Vancouver salaries are low and COL is very high.


This statement made is very important. The cost of living in Vancouver is extremely high. The metro Vancouver real estate market is dominated by either people who have owned their houses since the 70s, 80s and haven't sold, or by wealthy immigrants from East Asia. The city of Vancouver has become the most expensive housing market in North America.

Realistically, you will not be able to afford a detached house in Vancouver on a lawyer's salary, BigLaw or not (I highly doubt even on a much higher paid American corporate lawyer salary, could one afford a detached home in Vancouver if it wasn't a dual-income family). This will be important to consider because a lot of young, educated people leave Vancouver due to the fact that it's so expensive to live.

You'd be looking at living in $600,000 houses even if they're over an hour away from the city, across a bridge in Surrey. Or you're renting the rest of your life.

Toronto or Calgary are by far the best bets, if you're hoping to live an upper middle-class lifestyle comparable to that of a US lawyer. You'd get paid quite a bit less, but the difference in lifestyle wouldn't be that noticeable.

Lastly, does anyone know how long it takes to apply to be a permanent resident in Canada?


A work visa will come immediately once you get a Canadian degree. I went to Canadian University, and have American friends who got their work visas easily. All they did was apply, and they received it.

The immigration process is much simpler than the US. You can immigrate in if you are educated or wealthy. It's based on a point system. It should be even easier for you due to NAFTA.

Everything you need to know is on the Gov of Canada website: http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/newcomers/about-pr.asp

Real Madrid
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Re: Am I crazy for thinking Canada is the best option?

Postby Real Madrid » Wed May 16, 2012 6:37 pm

rayiner wrote:
thelawyler wrote:Before we go any further into the analysis:

It's fucking Canada.


Canada is pretty awesome. Vancouver and Toronto are right up there with Chicago or San Fran.

One guy in our class here at NU, tremendously smart fellow, went running back to U of Toronto because he didn't want to practice here in the US. Just one person, sure, but I think we're rapidly getting to the point where the utter dysfunction of our educational and health care systems is making the US an unattractive place for highly educated immigrants to migrate to.


Take that back.

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rayiner
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Re: Am I crazy for thinking Canada is the best option?

Postby rayiner » Wed May 16, 2012 6:42 pm

Realistically, you will not be able to afford a detached house in Vancouver on a lawyer's salary,


You can't afford a detached house in San Fran or New York on a lawyer's salary either.

CanadianWolf
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Re: Am I crazy for thinking Canada is the best option?

Postby CanadianWolf » Wed May 16, 2012 6:50 pm

Same for Washington, D.C.

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dsn32
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Re: Am I crazy for thinking Canada is the best option?

Postby dsn32 » Wed May 16, 2012 6:53 pm

I'm curious, has anyone heard of an incoming student applying to be a permanent resident before schooling, thus not paying international tuition? This would make a 35-40,000 difference at UBC and UToronto.

Also, UBC is nearly a down payment on a home (~40,000) cheaper than the Ontario schools if you are a permanent resident. Something I was considering, although maybe that shouldn't be a consideration.

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Re: Am I crazy for thinking Canada is the best option?

Postby CanadianWolf » Wed May 16, 2012 6:54 pm

Vancouver received many wealthy immigrants from Hong Kong after it was "returned" to China. Small homes on large, heavily treed lots near downtown Vancouver were razed in favor of oversized homes that satisfied cravings for large interior living space.

As noted above, the easiest way to get into Canada was to bring money & invest in Canada or to bring money & create jobs.

Real Madrid
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Re: Am I crazy for thinking Canada is the best option?

Postby Real Madrid » Wed May 16, 2012 6:55 pm

ConcernedHabsFan wrote:
I would remove UBC unless you are fully confident that you will be paying resident tuition. Vancouver salaries are low and COL is very high.


This statement made is very important. The cost of living in Vancouver is extremely high. The metro Vancouver real estate market is dominated by either people who have owned their houses since the 70s, 80s and haven't sold, or by wealthy immigrants from East Asia. The city of Vancouver has become the most expensive housing market in North America.

Realistically, you will not be able to afford a detached house in Vancouver on a lawyer's salary, BigLaw or not (I highly doubt even on a much higher paid American corporate lawyer salary, could one afford a detached home in Vancouver if it wasn't a dual-income family). This will be important to consider because a lot of young, educated people leave Vancouver due to the fact that it's so expensive to live.

You'd be looking at living in $600,000 houses even if they're over an hour away from the city, across a bridge in Surrey. Or you're renting the rest of your life.

Toronto or Calgary are by far the best bets, if you're hoping to live an upper middle-class lifestyle comparable to that of a US lawyer. You'd get paid quite a bit less, but the difference in lifestyle wouldn't be that noticeable.

Lastly, does anyone know how long it takes to apply to be a permanent resident in Canada?


A work visa will come immediately once you get a Canadian degree. I went to Canadian University, and have American friends who got their work visas easily. All they did was apply, and they received it.

The immigration process is much simpler than the US. You can immigrate in if you are educated or wealthy. It's based on a point system. It should be even easier for you due to NAFTA.

Everything you need to know is on the Gov of Canada website: http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/newcomers/about-pr.asp


The average house in Vancouver is over 11 times the average family income. Needless to say, the city can't sustain that for long. Salaries in Vancouver will soon be rising and/or housing prices will be coming down.

CanadianWolf
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Re: Am I crazy for thinking Canada is the best option?

Postby CanadianWolf » Wed May 16, 2012 6:56 pm

That may be wishful thinking. However, eleven (11) times the average income doesn't seem unusual if comparing NYC, San Francisco & DC. Do you happen to know those ratios ?

P.S. Are you referring to the average family income for the country, province or for a particular city ?
Last edited by CanadianWolf on Wed May 16, 2012 6:59 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Real Madrid
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Re: Am I crazy for thinking Canada is the best option?

Postby Real Madrid » Wed May 16, 2012 6:58 pm

Rising salaries probably IS wishful thinking. But I don't think it takes a rocket scientist to see that a city can't sustain housing prices 11 times the average family income for long.

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rayiner
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Re: Am I crazy for thinking Canada is the best option?

Postby rayiner » Wed May 16, 2012 6:59 pm

Real Madrid wrote:The average house in Vancouver is over 11 times the average family income. Needless to say, the city can't sustain that for long. Salaries in Vancouver will soon be rising and/or housing prices will be coming down.


New York isn't too far from that.

CanadianWolf
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Re: Am I crazy for thinking Canada is the best option?

Postby CanadianWolf » Wed May 16, 2012 7:03 pm

OP: Have you researched the cost of Canadian law schools under the joint degree programs if you start at one of the US law schools offering US/Canadian dual degree programs ?

ConcernedHabsFan
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Re: Am I crazy for thinking Canada is the best option?

Postby ConcernedHabsFan » Wed May 16, 2012 7:08 pm

You can't afford a detached house in San Fran or New York on a lawyer's salary either.


The difference though is, if you looked up how much the average lawyer in San Francisco or New York City made, it would be much higher than a lawyer in Vancouver. Especially if it was data collected from graduates at NYU or Berkeley, since UBC is also a global Tier I and probably just as difficult to get into.

San Francisco pays it's professionals more salary wise because the cost of living is so high. The only people getting paid in Vancouver are rich foreign real estate investors, or older Canadians who made their money generations ago (mining, forestry). I know you think I'm exaggerating and that this sounds ridiculous, but ask anyone who has lived in Vancouver - the industry doesn't reflect the ridiculously pricey real estate market.

Also, there's a list of Fortune 500 companies based in the Bay Area. There's not much industry in Vancouver. So, you're really shit out of luck as a lawyer in Vancouver unless you're the best in a top company. A lot of talented Engineering students for instance, opt to work in the Bay Area, because though cost of living is high, at least their salary sustains it.

(Random observation: When I was in the Bay Area visiting, there were a lot of young professionals living upper middle-class lifestyles, at nice lounges, clubs and bars. They were in their early thirties, all very educated. In Vancouver, all the people blowing big money at the nightclubs are 20 year-old East Asians that drive Maseratis, or 19 year-old Persian chicks. Most of the people in their thirties that actually work, not so much).

I'm curious, has anyone heard of an incoming student applying to be a permanent resident before schooling, thus not paying international tuition? This would make a 35-40,000 difference at UBC and UToronto.
Also, UBC is nearly a down payment on a home (~40,000) cheaper than the Ontario schools if you are a permanent resident. Something I was considering, although maybe that shouldn't be a consideration..


No, I've never heard of that happening and I know a good number of Americans that study at Canadian Universities. They all wait until graduation, because the work visa is basically automatic from what I've witnessed.

From what I was told when they raised tuition again, UBC is one of the most expensive schools in Canada, and Ontario tends to be a lot cheaper. On the other hand, if cost of living is a concern and you really like the idea of living in B.C., University of Victoria has a good law school. You could always study at UVic for 3 years, the cost of living there as a student would be a lot cheaper. Plus UVic is in the cap city, it has a good rep.

Rising salaries probably IS wishful thinking. But I don't think it takes a rocket scientist to see that a city can't sustain housing prices 11 times the average family income for long.


Income might go up, as companies need to keep their people from leaving to other cities. But housing prices aren't going to come down. Vancouver is #1 in livability and #4 in quality of life, so the demand for houses there will always be there. Plus, the city is stringent rules on who can develop more real estate, and how. Couple that with the fact that metro Vancouver is small, and there isn't that much land the government allows you to develop on, means the prices will be what you see for awhile.
Last edited by ConcernedHabsFan on Wed May 16, 2012 7:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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dsn32
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Re: Am I crazy for thinking Canada is the best option?

Postby dsn32 » Wed May 16, 2012 7:09 pm

CanadianWolf wrote:OP: Have you researched the cost of Canadian law schools under the joint degree programs if you start at one of the US law schools offering US/Canadian dual degree programs ?


Colorado (~105k) or UBC (~65k or 100k depending on PR status) would be my best bet, factoring in likely scholarship offerings, although I have not looked into if Hawaii would be cheaper than UBC. Unfortunately, my home state is in shambles, so MSU/Ottawa would be an expensive option unless MSU decided to give an in-state kid a huge scholly.

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dsn32
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Re: Am I crazy for thinking Canada is the best option?

Postby dsn32 » Wed May 16, 2012 7:11 pm

No, I've never heard of that happening and I know a good number of Americans that study at Canadian Universities. They all wait until graduation, because the work visa is basically automatic from what I've seen.
From what I was told when they raised tuition again, UBC is one of the most expensive schools in Canada, and Ontario tends to be a lot cheaper. On the other hand, if cost of living is a concern and you really like the idea of living in B.C., University of Victoria has a good law school. You could always study at UVic for 3 years, the cost of living there as a student would be a lot cheaper.


What if you came in as a skilled worked in another profession, then went to LS? Obvs a process to be carried out over 5 yrs plus, but maybe still an option.

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Re: Am I crazy for thinking Canada is the best option?

Postby lawyerwannabe » Fri May 18, 2012 5:17 pm

Tanicius wrote:
lawyerwannabe wrote:
Tanicius wrote:The reason you would want to choose Canada is because almost all of Canada's attorneys end up employed. School prestige or a lack of it is practically no barrier at all. Sure biglaw in Toronto doesn't pay American market salary, but who cares? More livable hours and better chances of employment? Take it. It's not any colder than Chicago or NYC.


Not sure if serious . . .


Winter is winter. Toronto's probably a worse time than NYC, but it's comparable to Chicago - it's a cold place on a lake with exposure to lots of wind and snow. If you can take it in the States you can take it in Toronto.


You did notice that I was only commenting on NYC, right? During the cold months (e.g. October through March), Toronto is on average at least 10 degrees colder than NYC. That is significant.

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Tanicius
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Re: Am I crazy for thinking Canada is the best option?

Postby Tanicius » Fri May 18, 2012 5:35 pm

lawyerwannabe wrote:
Tanicius wrote:
lawyerwannabe wrote:
Tanicius wrote:The reason you would want to choose Canada is because almost all of Canada's attorneys end up employed. School prestige or a lack of it is practically no barrier at all. Sure biglaw in Toronto doesn't pay American market salary, but who cares? More livable hours and better chances of employment? Take it. It's not any colder than Chicago or NYC.


Not sure if serious . . .


Winter is winter. Toronto's probably a worse time than NYC, but it's comparable to Chicago - it's a cold place on a lake with exposure to lots of wind and snow. If you can take it in the States you can take it in Toronto.


You did notice that I was only commenting on NYC, right? During the cold months (e.g. October through March), Toronto is on average at least 10 degrees colder than NYC. That is significant.



No, it's not. If you're able to survive 10 degrees, you're able to survive 0, and if you're able to survive 0 or -10, you're able to survive -20. The clothes you wear outside are exactly the same.

lawyerwannabe
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Re: Am I crazy for thinking Canada is the best option?

Postby lawyerwannabe » Fri May 18, 2012 5:41 pm

Have you lived in California your whole life? Your answer would make sense to me if you have.

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Tanicius
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Re: Am I crazy for thinking Canada is the best option?

Postby Tanicius » Fri May 18, 2012 5:59 pm

lawyerwannabe wrote:Have you lived in California your whole life? Your answer would make sense to me if you have.



I grew up in Minnesota, which gets colder than Toronto, Chicago, and NYC. I hate the cold more than most people. When it dips below 20 F, you stop noticing the differences - it's just damn cold. You're not going to be lollygagging outside in either three of those cities during the winter.

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roaringeagle
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Re: Am I crazy for thinking Canada is the best option?

Postby roaringeagle » Fri May 18, 2012 6:06 pm

canada is great but it is too damn cold. yes i have been under several feet of snow there. Toronto is gorgeous. Canadian legal system is more forgiving, and you got universal healthcare. Though the Canadians have yet to perfect the system...I hear that specialists can be very hard to get to quickly.

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Re: Am I crazy for thinking Canada is the best option?

Postby CanadianWolf » Fri May 18, 2012 6:34 pm

Vancouver doesn't get very cold, although it rains a lot.

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skers
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Re: Am I crazy for thinking Canada is the best option?

Postby skers » Sat May 19, 2012 12:50 pm

What are salaries like in Canada?

CanadianWolf
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Re: Am I crazy for thinking Canada is the best option?

Postby CanadianWolf » Sat May 19, 2012 12:52 pm

http://www.lawstudents.ca should answer your question.




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