Are Law Schools Getting Desperate?

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AntipodeanPhil
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Re: Are Law Schools Getting Desperate?

Postby AntipodeanPhil » Thu May 03, 2012 7:09 pm

Curious1 wrote:Meh his posts are getting less and less on topic and more and more nitpicky. Plus that vicious attack on Dean Z was totally uncalled for (and wrong) and he didn't even apologize.

Can someone point me to this? All I can find is a post critical of Michigan's employment data ("The startling gap in Michigan's salary stats").

ETA: nevermind, I'm guessing it's this:

http://insidethelawschoolscam.blogspot. ... -more.html
Last edited by AntipodeanPhil on Thu May 03, 2012 7:19 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Paul Campos
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Re: Are Law Schools Getting Desperate?

Postby Paul Campos » Thu May 03, 2012 7:09 pm

Curious1 wrote:
Paul Campos wrote:
Curious1 wrote:
Paul Campos wrote:Kindly wonderful Dean Z wrote this at a time when she knew full well that Michigan had just hired 17% of its 2010 class into short-term low-paid "fellowships":

http://www.law.umich.edu/connection/a2z/Lists/Posts/Post.aspx?ID=48


You are an idiot.


People who enjoy being lied to while paying $200K for the privilege are the life blood of contemporary legal education.


In what wild fantasy was she lying in this post?



She's quoting supposed 98%-99% employment rates for UM grads. You don't think that under these circumstances failing to mention that the class which graduated eight months earlier had so much trouble getting jobs that the school had to hire one out of every six of them counts as a material misrepresentation?

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dowu
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Re: Are Law Schools Getting Desperate?

Postby dowu » Thu May 03, 2012 7:10 pm

Curious1 wrote:
Paul Campos wrote:
Curious1 wrote:
Paul Campos wrote:Kindly wonderful Dean Z wrote this at a time when she knew full well that Michigan had just hired 17% of its 2010 class into short-term low-paid "fellowships":

http://www.law.umich.edu/connection/a2z/Lists/Posts/Post.aspx?ID=48


You are an idiot.


People who enjoy being lied to while paying $200K for the privilege are the life blood of contemporary legal education.


In what wild fantasy was she lying in this post?


Bro, he said that she gave employment numbers while knowingly employing a good percentage of students at their own school. How does this not make sense to you, the fact that she stands behind her "great employment numbers" when in fact the school is employing these graduates? Are these numbers accurate? Sure. Are they really represenative of the job situation out there? Hell to the fucking NO.

ETA: Scooped by Mr. Campos.

Curious1
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Re: Are Law Schools Getting Desperate?

Postby Curious1 » Thu May 03, 2012 7:16 pm

She reported the 2009 numbers...which was what she had to work with at the time and she obviously didn't lie about them. We can't expect her to SPECULATE employment numbers BEFORE they're reported--the 2010 numbers weren't finalized at the time of her post.

So even though at the time, she might have known the school was employment some graduates, she could have easily assumed (not incorrectly) that these fellowships would lead to full-time employment. She didn't know at the time where those graduates would be IN THE FUTURE.

We shouldn't be requiring law schools to be speculating the worst case scenario and advertising that. She eventually did report the statistic you were gloating over and she didn't lie then either.

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dowu
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Re: Are Law Schools Getting Desperate?

Postby dowu » Thu May 03, 2012 7:23 pm

Curious1 wrote:She reported the 2009 numbers...which was what she had to work with at the time and she obviously didn't lie about them. We can't expect her to SPECULATE employment numbers BEFORE they're reported--the 2010 numbers weren't finalized at the time of her post.

So even though at the time, she might have known the school was employment some graduates, she could have easily assumed (not incorrectly) that these fellowships would lead to full-time employment. She didn't know at the time where those graduates would be IN THE FUTURE.

We shouldn't be requiring law schools to be speculating the worst case scenario and advertising that. She eventually did report the statistic you were gloating over and she didn't lie then either.


What the fuck are you talking about? Of course she knew that the school was employing there graduates. You post is full of nonsense.

Curious1
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Re: Are Law Schools Getting Desperate?

Postby Curious1 » Thu May 03, 2012 7:29 pm

nmop_apisdn wrote:
Curious1 wrote:She reported the 2009 numbers...which was what she had to work with at the time and she obviously didn't lie about them. We can't expect her to SPECULATE employment numbers BEFORE they're reported--the 2010 numbers weren't finalized at the time of her post.

So even though at the time, she might have known the school was employment some graduates, she could have easily assumed (not incorrectly) that these fellowships would lead to full-time employment. She didn't know at the time where those graduates would be IN THE FUTURE.

We shouldn't be requiring law schools to be speculating the worst case scenario and advertising that. She eventually did report the statistic you were gloating over and she didn't lie then either.


What the fuck are you talking about? Of course she knew that the school was employing there graduates. You post is full of nonsense.


Why would she have known? It's perfectly reasonable to think that the dean of ADMISSIONS would see EMPLOYMENT data at the same time they're reported to NALP.

And even if she did, she still shouldn't have posted them because they were official (as in the figures that are reported to NALP). Had this post been a month later, I might have agreed she was being deceptive. But as it is, you're all bashing her unfairly. She's doing her job, and Michigan is far from the kind of school that REALLY needs to be closed down.

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dowu
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Re: Are Law Schools Getting Desperate?

Postby dowu » Thu May 03, 2012 7:36 pm

Curious1 wrote:
nmop_apisdn wrote:
Curious1 wrote:She reported the 2009 numbers...which was what she had to work with at the time and she obviously didn't lie about them. We can't expect her to SPECULATE employment numbers BEFORE they're reported--the 2010 numbers weren't finalized at the time of her post.

So even though at the time, she might have known the school was employment some graduates, she could have easily assumed (not incorrectly) that these fellowships would lead to full-time employment. She didn't know at the time where those graduates would be IN THE FUTURE.

We shouldn't be requiring law schools to be speculating the worst case scenario and advertising that. She eventually did report the statistic you were gloating over and she didn't lie then either.


What the fuck are you talking about? Of course she knew that the school was employing there graduates. You post is full of nonsense.


Why would she have known? It's perfectly reasonable to think that the dean of ADMISSIONS would see EMPLOYMENT data at the same time they're reported to NALP.

And even if she did, she still shouldn't have posted them because they were official (as in the figures that are reported to NALP). Had this post been a month later, I might have agreed she was being deceptive. But as it is, you're all bashing her unfairly. She's doing her job, and Michigan is far from the kind of school that REALLY needs to be closed down.



I completely agree that Michigan is not the school we should be nit picking at, since there are other schools that are worse. But it still doesnt detract from the issue that a lot of schools are posting misleading employment data.

And it's perfectly reasonable to believe that she would have known about it. The deans have no other job besides over looking school and the data attached to it. She'd be a terrible dean if she didnt know about it.

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ThreeRivers
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Re: Are Law Schools Getting Desperate?

Postby ThreeRivers » Thu May 03, 2012 8:01 pm

My cycle went exactly what should have been originally..

I guess some schools are suddenly getting desperate though

3 schools in which I withdrew from recently sent me scholarship re-offers (1 was substantial, 1 was only a little, and 1 went from a half ride to a full ride)

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JustE
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Re: Are Law Schools Getting Desperate?

Postby JustE » Thu May 03, 2012 8:25 pm

Um.... Yes, at the time of graduation, the school employed about 20% of its graduates. Yes, that sucks.

But 9 months later (the number they actually report), damn near all of them had full time gigs elsewhere. Am I missing something?

I was there when she made the statement and she spoke about the number of kids from that class that were currently in the fellowship. She openly stated that she didn't know the total number that were initially in the program.

I see where Campos was going, but it was a reach.

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albusdumbledore
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Re: Are Law Schools Getting Desperate?

Postby albusdumbledore » Thu May 03, 2012 8:35 pm

Paul Campos...great troll or greatest troll?

Paul Campos
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Re: Are Law Schools Getting Desperate?

Postby Paul Campos » Thu May 03, 2012 9:06 pm

Do I really need to point out exactly what's so wrong with Dean Z's essay about how awesome UMLS's employment stats are? Apparently so: Note that her post was completely gratuitous: it's not as if she had been tasked with defending UMLS's stats -- she just decided to put on a public performance about how amazingly transparent UMLS was being about its employment stats.

I mean that takes a lot of nerve: going out of your way to boast about how candid and forthright you're being at the very same time that you're actually failing to disclose some very key pieces of information. In January of 2011 UMLS had just finished paying more than 60 of its 2010 grads who had found themselves completely unemployed in the fall after graduation. But the candid and forthright and transparent Dean Z didn't mention any of that in her sanctimonious little sermon about how wonderful UMLS's reporting practices were.

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minnbills
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Re: Are Law Schools Getting Desperate?

Postby minnbills » Thu May 03, 2012 9:09 pm

Aren't some fellowships for students who need to pass the bar before whoever they worked for in the summers will make them an offer?

Real Madrid
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Re: Are Law Schools Getting Desperate?

Postby Real Madrid » Thu May 03, 2012 9:42 pm

If Paul Campos really believed in what he preaches, he'd resign from Colorado, a school which, according to its own website, left 36% of its 2010 class unemployed, with 3% employed in school-funded fellowships, and 7% with unknown employment statuses.

Undaunted by the near-50% (if not more, assuming no one in the "employed" category is underemployed) unemployed/underemployed placement rate at the school where he teaches, Campos naturally continues to rake in who knows how many hundreds of thousands of dollars annually as he watches a full one-half (or more) of his own students trade in their federal student loans for decades of debt servitude.

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boredatwork
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Re: Are Law Schools Getting Desperate?

Postby boredatwork » Thu May 03, 2012 10:00 pm

minnbills wrote:Aren't some fellowships for students who need to pass the bar before whoever they worked for in the summers will make them an offer?

I would like to know the answer to this. I was under the impression that most (or all) firms kept potential hires on as law clerks until they passed the bar (or failed and got let go)

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minnbills
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Re: Are Law Schools Getting Desperate?

Postby minnbills » Thu May 03, 2012 10:04 pm

boredatwork wrote:
minnbills wrote:Aren't some fellowships for students who need to pass the bar before whoever they worked for in the summers will make them an offer?

I would like to know the answer to this. I was under the impression that most (or all) firms kept potential hires on as law clerks until they passed the bar (or failed and got let go)


I can't remember which thread discussed this- but the impression I got was that it was mostly a PI/gov't thing.

ineptimusprime
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Re: Are Law Schools Getting Desperate?

Postby ineptimusprime » Thu May 03, 2012 10:19 pm

Real Madrid wrote:If Paul Campos really believed in what he preaches, he'd resign from Colorado, a school which, according to its own website, left 36% of its 2010 class unemployed, with 3% employed in school-funded fellowships, and 7% with unknown employment statuses.

Undaunted by the near-50% (if not more, assuming no one in the "employed" category is underemployed) unemployed/underemployed placement rate at the school where he teaches, Campos naturally continues to rake in who knows how many hundreds of thousands of dollars annually as he watches a full one-half (or more) of his own students trade in their federal student loans for decades of debt servitude.


Image

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LSAT Blog
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Re: Are Law Schools Getting Desperate?

Postby LSAT Blog » Thu May 03, 2012 10:38 pm

Real Madrid wrote:If Paul Campos really believed in what he preaches, he'd resign from Colorado, a school which, according to its own website, left 36% of its 2010 class unemployed, with 3% employed in school-funded fellowships, and 7% with unknown employment statuses.

Undaunted by the near-50% (if not more, assuming no one in the "employed" category is underemployed) unemployed/underemployed placement rate at the school where he teaches, Campos naturally continues to rake in who knows how many hundreds of thousands of dollars annually as he watches a full one-half (or more) of his own students trade in their federal student loans for decades of debt servitude.


1. If you want to disagree with the substance of his arguments, that's fine, but attacking the source?

2. If he resigned (assuming he had to get another job), he likely wouldn't have the time or platform to continue his advocacy (at least, not to the same extent).

3. If you read his blog, you'll find he doesn't spare his own school (as recently as Tuesday).

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Mr. Somebody
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Re: Are Law Schools Getting Desperate?

Postby Mr. Somebody » Thu May 03, 2012 10:43 pm

JustE wrote:Um.... Yes, at the time of graduation, the school employed about 20% of its graduates. Yes, that sucks.

But 9 months later (the number they actually report), damn near all of them had full time gigs elsewhere. Am I missing something?

I was there when she made the statement and she spoke about the number of kids from that class that were currently in the fellowship. She openly stated that she didn't know the total number that were initially in the program.

I see where Campos was going, but it was a reach.

Has there been any info released about the kind of work people are getting after doing these fellowships?

tamlyric
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Re: Are Law Schools Getting Desperate?

Postby tamlyric » Thu May 03, 2012 10:49 pm

--LinkRemoved--

Curious1
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Re: Are Law Schools Getting Desperate?

Postby Curious1 » Thu May 03, 2012 10:51 pm

Mr. Somebody wrote:
JustE wrote:Um.... Yes, at the time of graduation, the school employed about 20% of its graduates. Yes, that sucks.

But 9 months later (the number they actually report), damn near all of them had full time gigs elsewhere. Am I missing something?

I was there when she made the statement and she spoke about the number of kids from that class that were currently in the fellowship. She openly stated that she didn't know the total number that were initially in the program.

I see where Campos was going, but it was a reach.

Has there been any info released about the kind of work people are getting after doing these fellowships?


Wasn't there a sheep farmer in there, or am I thinking of a different school?

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soj
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Re: Are Law Schools Getting Desperate?

Postby soj » Thu May 03, 2012 11:03 pm

LSAT Blog wrote:
Real Madrid wrote:If Paul Campos really believed in what he preaches, he'd resign from Colorado, a school which, according to its own website, left 36% of its 2010 class unemployed, with 3% employed in school-funded fellowships, and 7% with unknown employment statuses.

Undaunted by the near-50% (if not more, assuming no one in the "employed" category is underemployed) unemployed/underemployed placement rate at the school where he teaches, Campos naturally continues to rake in who knows how many hundreds of thousands of dollars annually as he watches a full one-half (or more) of his own students trade in their federal student loans for decades of debt servitude.


1. If you want to disagree with the substance of his arguments, that's fine, but attacking the source?

2. If he resigned (assuming he had to get another job), he likely wouldn't have the time or platform to continue his advocacy (at least, not to the same extent).

3. If you read his blog, you'll find he doesn't spare his own school (as recently as Tuesday).

I agree. I don't understand why people think he should resign. He is in the best position to advocate for change because he is an insider of an institution that most desperately needs reform. Far fewer people would take him seriously if he were an outsider.

Real Madrid
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Re: Are Law Schools Getting Desperate?

Postby Real Madrid » Thu May 03, 2012 11:05 pm

LSAT Blog wrote:
Real Madrid wrote:If Paul Campos really believed in what he preaches, he'd resign from Colorado, a school which, according to its own website, left 36% of its 2010 class unemployed, with 3% employed in school-funded fellowships, and 7% with unknown employment statuses.

Undaunted by the near-50% (if not more, assuming no one in the "employed" category is underemployed) unemployed/underemployed placement rate at the school where he teaches, Campos naturally continues to rake in who knows how many hundreds of thousands of dollars annually as he watches a full one-half (or more) of his own students trade in their federal student loans for decades of debt servitude.


1. If you want to disagree with the substance of his arguments, that's fine, but attacking the source?

2. If he resigned (assuming he had to get another job), he likely wouldn't have the time or platform to continue his advocacy (at least, not to the same extent).

3. If you read his blog, you'll find he doesn't spare his own school (as recently as Tuesday).



1. I was not disagreeing with the substance of his arguments (Michigan may very well be "massaging the numbers"), merely pointing out that his stance is hypocritical. Thus, my post was not an ad hominem. I would think someone that makes a living explaining LSAT questions and answers would understand that. Perhaps I was mistaken.

2. Why do you automatically assume that he would immediately need to find another job? If he resigned and didn't pursue another job, he would most likely have much more time to continue his "advocacy" (read: hypocrisy).

3. Why on earth would I waste my time reading his blog?

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Mad Hatter
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Re: Are Law Schools Getting Desperate?

Postby Mad Hatter » Thu May 03, 2012 11:08 pm

soj wrote:
LSAT Blog wrote:
Real Madrid wrote:If Paul Campos really believed in what he preaches, he'd resign from Colorado, a school which, according to its own website, left 36% of its 2010 class unemployed, with 3% employed in school-funded fellowships, and 7% with unknown employment statuses.

Undaunted by the near-50% (if not more, assuming no one in the "employed" category is underemployed) unemployed/underemployed placement rate at the school where he teaches, Campos naturally continues to rake in who knows how many hundreds of thousands of dollars annually as he watches a full one-half (or more) of his own students trade in their federal student loans for decades of debt servitude.


1. If you want to disagree with the substance of his arguments, that's fine, but attacking the source?

2. If he resigned (assuming he had to get another job), he likely wouldn't have the time or platform to continue his advocacy (at least, not to the same extent).

3. If you read his blog, you'll find he doesn't spare his own school (as recently as Tuesday).

I agree. I don't understand why people think he should resign. He is in the best position to advocate for change because he is an insider of an institution that most desperately needs reform. Far fewer people would take him seriously if he were an outsider.

Perhaps the best solution would be for him to take whatever salary he feels law professors should be paid, and distribute the difference to the students.

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minnbills
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Re: Are Law Schools Getting Desperate?

Postby minnbills » Thu May 03, 2012 11:18 pm

This criticism is unfair. What matters, at the end of the day, is whether or not his arguments and analyses have merit.

Curious1
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Re: Are Law Schools Getting Desperate?

Postby Curious1 » Thu May 03, 2012 11:19 pm

minnbills wrote:This criticism is unfair. What matters, at the end of the day, is whether or not his arguments and analyses have merit.


Ethos, logos, and pathos, in that order of importance.

If he is a hypocrite and a hack (which I happen to think he is), it absolutely diminishes the validity of his arguments.




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